Trump's financials

[Multi-Hawk]

Laughing out loud at the right wingers poo pooing what trump's tax returns will show. Do you really think they've been requested just to see how much or how little he made or paid or gave to charity? Michael Cohen testified under oath trump increased the value of his holdings when he needed a loan and decreased those same holdings when he had to file his income taxes. Those two pages will be put side by side and compared. As long as they compare exactly, he has nothing to fear, if not, ooooops! Just. So. You'd. Know.

Unreal how clueless most are when it comes to what's in a tax return.

Tax returns show no market values for businesses or real estate. Appraisals are used to determine value of assets, not Trump telling a lender what the value is. Furthermore, asset value, when it relates to tax returns, is the value of the asset when it was purchased. Depreciation schedules are determined at that point in time (also known as your tax basis) and are not adjusted at the owner's discretion.

At the end of the day, market value and tax reported basis will never match and anyone thinking they should is just uninformed. There's nothing to compare, so your point here is irrelevant.

 

[srams21]

I don't think he hesitated,.. I think he simply refused and, I would do the same thing.

Same thing. Why would he refuse if there is nothing to hide?

When any candidate is running for the highest elected position, I think transparency is of the utmost importance. Ergo, I don't give a shit about your taxes.

That could just be me though.

 

[Joes Place]

Unreal how clueless most are when it comes to what's in a tax return.

Tax returns show no market values for businesses or real estate.

Yes, they do when you are buying/selling them and owe taxes on them.

When I sold a CA property just before the downturn, I had them come at me for that end-of-year gain, which was disclosed in my taxes. Just like interest deductions on qualifying loans - those ARE IN your returns.

 

[Rifler]

Same thing. Why would he refuse if there is nothing to hide?

Not a requirement, and to be honest it's nobody's business,.. merely the perpetuation of a marketing ploy started by Nixon...

 

[srams21]

Not a requirement, and to be honest it's nobody's business,.. merely the perpetuation of a marketing ploy started by Nixon...

I disagree. Especially when the incoming President is an international business person.

 

[Rifler]

I disagree. Especially when the incoming President is an international business person.

I will allow your disagreement...

 

[Finance85]

In his business taxes? It's ALL OVER them.
His PERSONAL taxes list his Schedule C info on WHAT businesses he owns.

Do you really think the NYAG won't figure this out? Why would they need his taxes, if NONE of this is in there?

What form? I provided all the links to the IRS forms 4 years ago.

 

[Finance85]

You do realize these are ALL records associated with your tax returns, right?

So, when you've obtained loans you're paying interest off of, which you can deduct, those loans are listed. Etc. etc etc.

Methinks you don't understand taxes beyond a 1040 EZ form...

You don't understand any forms. As I said 4 years ago, just cite the form. You couldn't do it then, and can't do it now. All you have is insults when you're wrong.

 

[Multi-Hawk]

Yes, they do when you are buying/selling them and owe taxes on them.

When I sold a CA property just before the downturn, I had them come at me for that end-of-year gain, which was disclosed in my taxes. Just like interest deductions on qualifying loans - those ARE IN your returns.

Nobody was talking about selling anything. That has absolutely zero relevancy to my reply.

Congrats on figuring out the gain on a sale is included in a tax form. You truly are an expert.

Since you brought up your vast dealings in real estate and like to capitalize, I've bought multiple BILLIONS worth of real estate and know what's in a tax return and more importantly what's not. You're out of your league - stay out of this.

 

[srams21]

I will allow your disagreement...

 

[SeaPA]

You don't understand any forms. As I said 4 years ago, just cite the form. You couldn't do it then, and can't do it now. All you have is insults when you're wrong.

I certainly agree that the tax returns themselves provide little of the information that some here seem to think they will. However, the articles I've read indicate that the order includes not just the tax returns, but a good deal of other documentation - including loan applications, paperwork regarding disputes over property valuation for property tax assessments, and other items. I haven't seen anything on which I'd rely as to exactly what is included, but would be very interested to know. One article speculated that it could also include detailed accounting records & possibly accountants' workpapers (we're not afforded the same level of client confidentiality protection as are lawyers).
Those type of items could certainly change my thoughts as to how much information can be obtained from the records addressed in this case.

 

[Finance85]

I certainly agree that the tax returns themselves provide little of the information that some here seem to think they will. However, the articles I've read indicate that the order includes not just the tax returns, but a good deal of other documentation - including loan applications, paperwork regarding disputes over property valuation for property tax assessments, and other items. I haven't seen anything on which I'd rely as to exactly what is included, but would be very interested to know. One article speculated that it could also include detailed accounting records & possibly accountants' workpapers (we're not afforded the same level of client confidentiality protection as are lawyers).
Those type of items could certainly change my thoughts as to how much information can be obtained from the records addressed in this case.

Joes Place has been demanding tax returns so he could see who Trump has been doing business with. My dispute with Joes Place is about tax returns.

While other business records may be in play, the only publication I've seen that says that is the NY Times. Every other news outlet is saying personal and corporate tax returns, which presumably includes supporting schedules.

 

[Funky Bunch]

Some of y'all act like there's no IRS Criminal Investigation Division that works with other entities. This is all about building cases and that's what they do.

 

[nu2u]

I don't think he hesitated,.. I think he simply refused and, I would do the same thing.

pure BS. He did not "simply refuse."

Instead, he played a coy political game by repeatedly stating that he would release all his tax returns once the IRS audit was completed knowing full well that his company was on a rolling audit due to issues he himself created.

When pressed, Trump fought release at every step and thanks to the truly exceptional reporting of the New York Times, we all know why.

 

[BGHAWK]

Unreal how clueless most are when it comes to what's in a tax return.

Tax returns show no market values for businesses or real estate. Appraisals are used to determine value of assets, not Trump telling a lender what the value is. Furthermore, asset value, when it relates to tax returns, is the value of the asset when it was purchased. Depreciation schedules are determined at that point in time (also known as your tax basis) and are not adjusted at the owner's discretion.

At the end of the day, market value and tax reported basis will never match and anyone thinking they should is just uninformed. There's nothing to compare, so your point here is irrelevant.

Putting those tax returns together with other documents will tell a lot. For example, why trump only paid $750 in 16 and 17 and zero the years before that.

 

[Joes Place]

I disagree. Especially when the incoming President is an international business person.

Exactly: are they making decisions in the interests of America and Americans, or in the interests of their own business?

This is basic common sense.

And CREW identified that Trump passed on $1.2M in salary, but obtained about $1.6B in revenues using his position, for his businesses; that's a 1,333x ROI.

 

[Joes Place]

Joes Place has been demanding tax returns so he could see who Trump has been doing business with. My dispute with Joes Place is about tax returns.

And you look like an idiot. Because everyone ELSE knows the information that will be learned.

 

[Joes Place]

What form? I provided all the links to the IRS forms 4 years ago.

....and you have no clue what any of them are.

 

[Joes Place]

Congrats on figuring out the gain on a sale is included in a tax form. You truly are an expert.

So are loans, converted into "income".

 

[Joes Place]

I certainly agree that the tax returns themselves provide little of the information that some here seem to think they will. However, the articles I've read indicate that the order includes not just the tax returns, but a good deal of other documentation - including loan applications, paperwork regarding disputes over property valuation for property tax assessments, and other items. I haven't seen anything on which I'd rely as to exactly what is included, but would be very interested to know. One article speculated that it could also include detailed accounting records & possibly accountants' workpapers (we're not afforded the same level of client confidentiality protection as are lawyers).
Those type of items could certainly change my thoughts as to how much information can be obtained from the records addressed in this case.

AND MANY of those purchase/sale records are PUBLIC.

So, if you find on Trump's tax record one of those line items, and it don't match the public record...... 😉

 

[SL Hawk Fan]

Nobody was talking about selling anything. That has absolutely zero relevancy to my reply.

Congrats on figuring out the gain on a sale is included in a tax form. You truly are an expert.

Since you brought up your vast dealings in real estate and like to capitalize, I've bought multiple BILLIONS worth of real estate and know what's in a tax return and more importantly what's not. You're out of your league - stay out of this.

You and Finance85 seem to be arguing that the investigation will not extend beyond the tax returns themselves. Most everyone else is stating that the tax returns will be the starting point but that reviewing what is reported there will extend to the underlying accounting records that support those numbers. That is where any malfeasance, if there is any, will be found.

 

[Whatsgoingonwitgyouguys0190]

I will allow your disagreement...

Nobody cares what you think you can allow. You’re nothing.

 

[Ozzy4335]

This isn't good for Hillary's emails

If she has to go down to take Don down...so be it.

 

[Huey Grey]

I don't get this argument that nothing potentially illegal can be found in his returns. If this was true, prosecutors wouldn't be taking their release to the Supreme Court.

 

[Huey Grey]

You and Finance85 seem to be arguing that the investigation will not extend beyond the tax returns themselves. Most everyone else is stating that the tax returns will be the starting point but that reviewing what is reported there will extend to the underlying accounting records that support those numbers. That is where any malfeasance, if there is any, will be found.

His returns may not be the endpoint, but they definitely will be used as evidence of wrongdoing. If it was impossible for his returns to implicate him in anyway the courts would have thrown out the investigator requests on the spot. Instead the courts went the exact opposite direction and ordered their release.

 

[SL Hawk Fan]

His returns may not be the endpoint, but they definitely will be used as evidence of wrongdoing. If it was impossible for his returns to implicate him in anyway the courts would have thrown out the investigator requests on the spot. Instead the courts went the exact opposite direction and ordered their release.

The tax returns definitely play a critical role, I agree. Ultimately, the return is a “statement/representation” by Trump to the federal government. If it is shown that Trump intentionally lied (ie committed tax fraud) in filing any of these returns, then the tax returns will be the evidentiary piece that (figuratively) hangs him.

 

[prlyles]

You and Finance85 seem to be arguing that the investigation will not extend beyond the tax returns themselves. Most everyone else is stating that the tax returns will be the starting point but that reviewing what is reported there will extend to the underlying accounting records that support those numbers. That is where any malfeasance, if there is any, will be found.

Correct. If the returns was the only thing to look at, what good would an audit do?

 

[Titus Andronicus]

No. Joes Place kept saying he wanted to see the returns so he could see who Trump was doing business with. I posted links to every IRS form and challenged Joes Place to tell me which form had that information. It wasn't ever about net worth.

I speculated, and I'm still speculating, that Trump has a much lower personal income than he pretends in public, and probably has very little charitable giving, and he's simply embarrassed and doesn't want to explain it. There's no doubt he runs most of his personal expenses through his companies, and at least some of his company benefits should probably be claimed as personal income.

He claims that he is audited every year so would not this stuff have been double-checked by the IRS? I find it hard to believe that he could consistently/year after year inflate or deflate valuations or actual transactions without the IRS at least spot-checking the appraisals or the transactions themselves. They do have Real Estate Pricing Experts in that place.

I can also see him "Talking big" to Cohen ... a guy who he has little respect for, but who he wanted to respect him. Cohen was an aspiring attorney who was willing to work for next to nothing in hopes of a payday further out in time. Trump exploited these sorts of people regularly. Cohen eventually caught on and Trump saw that Cohen was catching on. Personally I think the Cohen testimony is largely nonsense, as it relates to this sort of thing. There is simply no way, Trump would have trusted him with the inner secrets of the organization.

If the SDNY investigation is a wild chase after the Cohen testimony, it will ultimately show to be just another rabbit hole.

.....................................................

On another topic, the one person I know who leased space from him got a hell of a deal ... an expensive buildout and then no rent for a lengthy period of time. This was for a business startup, and Trump was essentially betting personal/borrowed capital on its success. His upside was capped by the ultimate rental payments ... and those appeared to be at a market rate based on what I could see.

I always had the feeling that just having the space leased made the lenders more comfortable, and that his dealing had something to do with affairs unrelated to that particular property. This also convinced me that he really wanted to show the world that people were eager to lease/buy from him.

(By the way, the business my friend started went on to flourish ... and is still in the space he leased. I think Trump actually is a good evaluator of business acumen.)

 

[ft254]

Especially one who is likely audited annually.

Audited annually. JFC. You wingers believe everything bullshitters like the Orange Turd dump in front of you.

 

[Funky Bunch]

He claims that he is audited every year so would not this stuff have been double-checked by the IRS? I find it hard to believe that he could consistently/year after year inflate or deflate valuations or actual transactions without the IRS at least spot-checking the appraisals or the transactions themselves. They do have Real Estate Pricing Experts in that place.

I can also see him "Talking big" to Cohen ... a guy who he has little respect for, but who he wanted to respect him. Cohen was an aspiring attorney who was willing to work for next to nothing in hopes of a payday further out in time. Trump exploited these sorts of people regularly. Cohen eventually caught on and Trump saw that Cohen was catching on. Personally I think the Cohen testimony is largely nonsense, as it relates to this sort of thing. There is simply no way, Trump would have trusted him with the inner secrets of the organization.

If the SDNY investigation is a wild chase after the Cohen testimony, it will ultimately show to be just another rabbit hole.

.....................................................

On another topic, the one person I know who leased space from him got a hell of a deal ... an expensive buildout and then no rent for a lengthy period of time. This was for a business startup, and Trump was essentially betting personal/borrowed capital on its success. His upside was capped by the ultimate rental payments ... and those appeared to be at a market rate based on what I could see.

I always had the feeling that just having the space leased made the lenders more comfortable, and that his dealing had something to do with affairs unrelated to that particular property. This also convinced me that he really wanted to show the world that people were eager to lease/buy from him.

(By the way, the business my friend started went on to flourish ... and is still in the space he leased. I think Trump actually is a good evaluator of business acumen.)

Unless the NY state tax department started an investigation. Then they would bring the IRS into it. But everything is mostly speculation right now.

 

[Multi-Hawk]

So are loans, converted into "income".

Do you realize how stupid that sounds? Nobody would want to report a loan as income and have to pay tax on the income. Holy hell.

 

[Multi-Hawk]

You and Finance85 seem to be arguing that the investigation will not extend beyond the tax returns themselves. Most everyone else is stating that the tax returns will be the starting point but that reviewing what is reported there will extend to the underlying accounting records that support those numbers. That is where any malfeasance, if there is any, will be found.

I'm not arguing that at all. The tax returns show much much less than most people realize is my main point.

 

[Phenomenally Frantastic]

The Trump hate consumes most of you.

As it should for every American that loves this country.

Benedict Arnold and Donald Trump. Traitors.

 

[Joes Place]

You and Finance85 seem to be arguing that the investigation will not extend beyond the tax returns themselves. Most everyone else is stating that the tax returns will be the starting point but that reviewing what is reported there will extend to the underlying accounting records that support those numbers. That is where any malfeasance, if there is any, will be found.

This is exactly correct.

There will be info IN the tax records, which can be vetted against public records. And when there is a mismatch that is not a "mistake", it is fraud.

No different than if I'd told CA I only banked $20k on my home sale on my taxes, but they looked at the public record, and saw that I bought for $300k and sold for $452k.

If I had ancillary documentation that I'd invested another $130k into the property as write-offs, I'd be fine. If I did not, that would be fraud. And I'd pay a penalty for it.

That Finance85 is unable to understand this is rather baffling, based on his username. Almost like he never actually graduated or something.

 

[Joes Place]

I'm not arguing that at all. The tax returns show much much less than most people realize is my main point.

Wrong. Tax record claims are able to be vetted against public records.

 

[Joes Place]

Do you realize how stupid that sounds? Nobody would want to report a loan as income and have to pay tax on the income. Holy hell.

It's literally WHY Trump didn't "report it"

Google up his Chicago property and review the news nuggets.

 

[SSG T]

Wrong. Tax record claims are able to be vetted against public records.

I mean, they have his bank records. As I said earlier, they can compare what he claimed for income/worth on his loan request to what he filed for taxes. Even if a bunch of income was non taxable, it will still show up. If there are major differences (claimed $400m on loan, actually earned $50m), that's bank fraud. Or flip that, if they find out he actually earned the higher amount but only claimed the lower amount on taxes, that's tax fraud.

 

[Rifler]

Nobody cares what you think you can allow. You’re nothing.

I'm the owner of the dick that you beg to suck...

 

[Finance85]

I'm not arguing that at all. The tax returns show much much less than most people realize is my main point.

And my point as well.

 

[Finance85]

This is exactly correct.

There will be info IN the tax records, which can be vetted against public records. And when there is a mismatch that is not a "mistake", it is fraud.

No different than if I'd told CA I only banked $20k on my home sale on my taxes, but they looked at the public record, and saw that I bought for $300k and sold for $452k.

If I had ancillary documentation that I'd invested another $130k into the property as write-offs, I'd be fine. If I did not, that would be fraud. And I'd pay a penalty for it.

That Finance85 is unable to understand this is rather baffling, based on his username. Almost like he never actually graduated or something.

You are creating strawmen that give you what you think is wiggle room. For over 4 years, you been wanting to see Trump's tax returns because you want to see who he owes money to, and who he does business with. Those bits of information aren't on tax returns, other than capital gains / losses.

When you are proven wrong, you shift the goalpost. You give yourself cover with posters who don't keep up with where you started. Heck, even if they know where you started, you move the goalpost so much it's mind boggling.