Two paths for the democratic party

[hawkeyetraveler]

I voted for Chase Oliver. Apparently non-binary thinking isn't recognized here.

I would vote for a Democrat if they voted for spending cuts, especially to the military and foreign aid, and reduced the size of the federal government, and government regulation overreach. I would consider voting for a Republican under the same conditions, with the added condition they repeal the Patriot Act and stop pushing government endorsement of religion. As for the latter, that doesn't mean freedom from religion.

I intended the “did not vote” to mean you did not vote for either major party candidate and should have worded that much better so it includes both folks like you and those that sat on the couch.

If you are so inclined please use that category for your vote.

 

[BrunoMars420]

The problem with the US is that power rests in the hands of a few very wealthy and powerful people. Wealthy and powerful people are pulling the strings with the abundance movement. Therefore the abundance movement would look to keep power in the hands of the wealthy and powerful. The negotiated positions between two neoliberal parties is neoliberalism.

Man you just get hyped for bullshit compromise. This type of compromise only looks to the strengthening of the status quo. It's like a nesting doll of neoliberalism. It would be the party of Hakeem Jefferies, Chuck Schumer, Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, Nancy Pelosi, Mitt Romney, Joe Biden, Joe Manchin, Kirsten Sinema, John Huntsman, and John Kasich. Those type of people helped set this current landscape. Granted, they are better than what we have now, however, the amount of voters that will look to politicians like that to correct the issues would be small after the damage that is about to be inflicted. Incrementalism and compromise has failed miserably from the left. I'm a pass.

See I don’t see the abundance agenda being the party of those types because they are the reason we are in this situation. There are plenty of examples from the past 25 years on how we can learn from the mistakes and make government a better system for the people. There is a middle of how the status quo was and what Trump is doing. You have the right who wants to villainize anything government and the left who is entrenched in all things government where they don’t want to shrink but expand it more. The people you listed are old who don’t really understand technology and they are from a far different generation.

From the posting history of the left on here, I would imagine most on here would be on your side. But at the same time you can’t push for all these bills and programs through government without doing something along the lines of using the abundance agenda or doing what slick willy did in the 90s to make government more efficient and less red tapey.

 

[youflog1hawk]

The Democratic Party’s first step should be to fine tune their messaging so it has an appeal to a wider audience. They then need to stop championing wedge issues that most people don’t care about.

Perhaps after they look themselves in the mirror they can then figure out that America is full of inbreds and idiots and you have to at the very least make some type of overture to the dregs of society to win elections.

Oh, and you can’t win the presidency at this time in history running a woman. Latinos, Muslims, and black men will reject her.

You all forget what Democrats are. They live in a identity political world. Identity politics cannot meld together because they eventually feed on each other. Trans men in women sports is a perfect example of promoting an identity while attacking another identity, ( women). I don’t see this changing anytime soon because I believe for the most part, most political Democrats moral character will not allow them to just say no. Just like the Tesla attacks and outing people who owned Teslas the Dems are silent and some love it. Shameful

 

[hawkeyetraveler]

You all forget what Democrats are. They live in an identity political world. Identity politics cannot meld together because they eventually feed on each other. Trans men in women sports is a perfect example of promoting an identity while attacking another identity, ( women). I don’t see this changing anytime soon because I believe for the most part, most political Democrats moral character will not allow them to just say no. Just like the Tesla attacks and outing people who owned Teslas the Dems are silent and some love it. Shameful

You honestly believe all 74,999,166 people that voted for Kamala think this way? All of them?

That is straight up garbage.

Hell, a MAJORITY of Dems are against biological males in female sports.

 

[Moral]

See I don’t see the abundance agenda being the party of those types because they are the reason we are in this situation. There are plenty of examples from the past 25 years on how we can learn from the mistakes and make government a better system for the people. There is a middle of how the status quo was and what Trump is doing. You have the right who wants to villainize anything government and the left who is entrenched in all things government where they don’t want to shrink but expand it more. The people you listed are old who don’t really understand technology and they are from a far different generation.

From the posting history of the left on here, I would imagine most on here would be on your side. But at the same time you can’t push for all these bills and programs through government without doing something along the lines of using the abundance agenda or doing what slick willy did in the 90s to make government more efficient and less red tapey.

The people tied to the abundance movement make it an absolute no-go. It means the movement is corrupted out of the gate, it is not a natural movement via grassroots. I feel like I believe that the people pulling the strings are much more clever than you might believe the to be. When I look at something like the abundance movement I see it as an attempt to make an appeal towards a status quo that is very beneficial to those already in power and an intentional shift of the government incrementally to the right.

Right now we have the far right in charge of all branches. The entirety of the Republican power in office appears to be far right. There is no middle ground to be has with this people. Then there are the neoliberals which is a libertarian lite type of grouping. They are business friendly and virtue signal on social issues. That's the majority of the Democrats. Then there are like 10 "far left" Democrats that hold positions like Medicare for all, paid family leave, and stuff that polls really well, we aren't to trust them because those things are so insane. Could you imagine not having to worry about insurance between jobs. They are the remnants of the New Deal Democrats.

I'm not saying it has to be Bernie or anyone flirting with social democracy, but it did take some Roosevelt's to escape the last robber baron era. I'm not sure how much you can escape with compromising.

 

[Sharky1203]

None of those, I would if they wanted a more fiscal conservative approach. Stopped doubling down on bad ideas that don't work. Listened to the liberal progressives but not cater to them. Really if they just shut up for once and stopped telling people what they want and listened to what the people want.

 

[seminole97]

The other side of this conversation is that the premise is misplaced. Why always the Democratic Party in need of a makeover?Why never the party that currently resembles a heaping pile of MAGAt-infested elephant shit? Why never them?

After all, Team Trump only benefits a fraction of the population. Not only that, but they seem hellbent on anal raping the rest of the American population with an elongated cucumber. And still the majority of these idiots will gleefully bend over, grab their ankles, and squeal to high heaven just so they can lament about a handful of transgender women ****ing up women’s sports. It’s colossally stupid, and yet that is the path millions of imbeciles have chosen—to take Trump and Elon’s fascist-filled dildo straight up their mud whistles.

In short, I am done musing about what Democrats need to change. It’s time for the American people to start figuring out what they need to change. Don’t tell me it’s the Democratic Party that needs a serious makeover when you have Team Trump turning the executive branch into a trashy reality TV show morphed into a white trash soap opera. It’s like inspecting two flawed faces—one with a couple giant zits on the chin and the other something akin to the travesty once on @joelbc1’s face—and then concluding it’s the chin that needs makeup.

Folks, the pimpled chin is not the problem right now.

The premise is this, self reflect for a moment on how the Democrats are viewed by the voter as a worse option than what you’ve described.

Democrats are viewed as more repulsive in their policies by America than what you’ve described, and your response is they shouldn’t change.

 

[noStemsnoSTICKS]

Can government be smaller and more efficient? Yes.
Should our trade partners operate under the same fees, guidelines and rules as us? Yes.
Should NATO countries pay their fair share? Yes.
Should a woman have the right to make decisions about her own body? Yes.
Should kids be educated on real American history (slavery, Japanese internment, etc.)? Yes.
Should trans women (males) be allowed to play women's sports? No.
Should trans people be allowed in the military? Yes.
Should gays be allowed to marry? Yes.
Should there be laws limiting the rights of LGBTQ+ people? No.
Should there be prayer in school? No.
Should we ever take the word of Vladimir Putin over our own intelligence agencies? No
Should there be a U.S. Department of Education? Yes.

I mean, I could go on all day. But give me a candidate or a party who supports most of the above, and I'm down.

 

[RagnarLothbrok]

The premise is this, self reflect for a moment on how the Democrats are viewed by the voter as a worse option than what you’ve described.

Democrats are viewed as more repulsive in their policies by America than what you’ve described, and your response is they shouldn’t change.

No, that was not my response at all. Not even close.

 

[desihawk]

Can government be smaller and more efficient? Yes.
Should our trade partners operate under the same fees, guidelines and rules as us? Yes.
Should NATO countries pay their fair share? Yes.
Should a woman have the right to make decisions about her own body? Yes.
Should kids be educated on real American history (slavery, Japanese internment, etc.)? Yes.
Should trans women (males) be allowed to play women's sports? No.
Should trans people be allowed in the military? Yes.
Should gays be allowed to marry? Yes.
Should there be laws limiting the rights of LGBTQ+ people? No.
Should there be prayer in school? No.
Should we ever take the word of Vladimir Putin over our own intelligence agencies? No
Should there be a U.S. Department of Education? Yes.

I mean, I could go on all day. But give me a candidate or a party who supports most of the above, and I'm down.

i have no idea which party you support nor do i need to know but what you wrote is common sensical and mainstream and most of it should imo be championed by any/both parties. differentiation of party positions should occur elsewhere ideally

 

[Bearhawk0505]

I believe the path for a Bernie type candidate will be there. Hopefully, the working class will realize Republicans just use them and gut them like a fish with their policies after these four years. However, I don’t have a high amount of faith in people voting for their best interests. There is also a segment of households in the 150K-300K range that mysteriously think Republicans will help their financial situation, that are in for a rude awakening. Hopefully, some of them will be open to a Bernie type candidate. I realize the majority of this bracket is likely educated and already vote democratic, so the working class is still the one that democrats should win by a landslide.

 

[seminole97]

You honestly believe all 74,999,166 people that voted for Kamala think this way? All of them?

That is straight up garbage.

I think the democrats got plenty of votes from people too repulsed by Trump.

If Trump’s coalition didn’t have him at the top, is it more or less popular with the electorate?

Hell, a MAJORITY of Dems are against biological males in female sports.

Then why would NONE of the representatives in Congress vote with that majority? Who are they beholden to?

 

[seminole97]

No, that was not my response at all. Not even close.

I think you overlook that the GOP did reform.
Looks like every president bends the knee to Israel, but you can’t tell me with a straight face that the 2024 foreign policy is not a complete makeover from the 2004 foreign policy.
The GOP has changed to the less warmonger party (nobody is mistaking Trump for Ron Paul).
Look at Trump’s coalition of former democrats. Someone like Gabbard who literally signed up for and became disillusioned with up close our foreign policy.
Could you see 2004 GOP spearheading pharma, food, and environmental policy with RFK Jr?

 

[pjhawk]

"Abundance Agenda" is nonsense. And its completely irrelevant to the current moment anyway. The country is in a national emergency every day that Trump is President. Opposition to Trump needs to be the party message right now. That is what the Democrats need to be concentrating on, and they aren't. At all. Infuriating.

 

[BrunoMars420]

"Abundance Agenda" is nonsense. And its completely irrelevant to the current moment anyway. The country is in a national emergency every day that Trump is President. Opposition to Trump needs to be the party message right now. That is what the Democrats need to be concentrating on, and they aren't. At all. Infuriating.

View embedded media

“Opposition to Trump needs to be the party message right now.”

That was the message since the 2016 election and is the current message if you haven’t been paying attention to the media.

 

[pjhawk]

“Opposition to Trump needs to be the party message right now.”

That was the message since the 2016 election and is the current message if you haven’t been paying attention to the media.

Oh FFS. Live in the real world, not your fantasy world. This isn't even close to true. Democrats have concentrated almost all their efforts for forever on their usual lame ass "kitchen table" agenda. Go look at the current "leaders" of the Dem party Chuck Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries twitter and blue sky feeds. And if you look at the replies to any of their posts at blue sky they're almost all raging/pleading with them to do something, SAY something.

The Trump administration is daily laying waste to the constitution, the government, and the economy and the rule of law, and it's crickets from elected Democrats.

 

[Tenacious E]

Pretty much everyone agrees the Democratic Party needs a major overhaul and most people agree we need a strong 2+ party system. It seems like there are two common themes emerging as to the direction the democrats should take.

Progressive Populism: I would call this the Bernie Sanders / AOC plan for America. Very similar to many European democracies where the government is providing a good social safety net when needed, where the wealthy are taxed at a higher rate, the Green New Deal gets implemented, etc.

Abundance Agenda: @Nole Lou introduced this concept to HBOT in a separate thread. It has adherents from both liberal and conservative circles. It acknowledges we need a smaller, more capable Federal government. It argues the democrats must be the party of EFFECTIVE government, recognizing that what we have today does not work and by defending it democrats shoot themselves in the face. But it also recognizes Trump’s approach is bad for America. It argues for streamlined regulation focused on economic growth and solving real problems like the lack of affordable housing in blue cities.

So I thought a poll would be interesting. What direction do you want to see the Dems take here?

My vote would be I voted for Harris but would like from the democrats a middle of the road candidate like bill clinton.

 

[Tenacious E]

None of those, I would if they wanted a more fiscal conservative approach. Stopped doubling down on bad ideas that don't work. Listened to the liberal progressives but not cater to them. Really if they just shut up for once and stopped telling people what they want and listened to what the people want.

Bill Clinton.

 

[Sharky1203]

Bill Clinton.

Yes. No one in the party right now though.

 

[seminole97]

The Trump administration is daily laying waste to the constitution, the government, and the economy and the rule of law, and its crickets from elected Democrats.

Pfft!

Choose your fighter!

 

[pjhawk]

This is a competely worthless thread because it doesn't account at all for how real voters in the real world make their decisions.

If most/all people made their voting decisions on the basis of rational choices and by carefully analyzing "abundance agendas" and "progressive populism" vs the current Republican agenda there would be no chance for a Donald Trump to become President of the United States.

It's fantasy, this is all fantasy. It's what the Democrats do over and over and over and it's a fail. And basing the party approach around this type of stuff will continue to be an ongoing fail. Oppose Trump and Trumpism. That's the party agenda at the least through 2028. The United States is at stake here.

 

[Tenacious E]

Yes. No one in the party right now though.

I guess I would agree that no one that stands out. I’m liked Kasich but he didn’t have any traction. I think people will yearn to vote for someone who is normal and predictable.

 

[BrunoMars420]

Oh FFS. Live in the real world, not your fantasy world. This isn't even close to true. Democrats have concentrated almost all their efforts for forever on their usual lame ass "kitchen table" agenda. Go look at the current "leaders" of the Dem party Chuck Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries twitter and blue sky feeds. And if you look at the replies to any of their posts at blue sky they're almost all raging/pleading with them to do something, SAY something.

The Trump administration is daily laying waste to the constitution, the government, and the economy and the rule of law, and it's crickets from elected Democrats.

So Donald Trump is a threat to democracy wasn’t the message in 2024? Donald Trump is an Authoritarian and Fascist isn’t the current message right now? MAGA are white power types and Nazis hasn’t been the message since Trumps first term? Jesus Christ, I could go on and on and on about the democrats message on Trump being the opposition with all types of isms that has been thrown around by the Left since he came down that escalator. Are you guys that blind by your partisanship that you actually don’t see this stuff?

Talk about living in a fantasy world.

 

[Sharky1203]

I guess I would agree that no one that stands out. I’m liked Kasich but he didn’t have any traction. I think people will yearn to vote for someone who is normal and predictable.

100% and if they want to get beyond the dismal positive ratings, they need to find someone and very soon. Someone who relates to the average Joe/Jane.

 

[Tenacious E]

100% and if they want to get beyond the dismal positive ratings, they need to find someone and very soon. Someone who relates to the average Joe/Jane.

This is going to sound very shallow, but they need someone “cool” who can make fun of Trump and his sycophants and people will laugh. Like Obama or Clinton. People didn’t want a prosecutor, that didn’t want the wooden wife of bill, they didn’t want the coach/meathead vibe of walz, they didn’t want someone on the last legs if life like Biden. Just not sure who that is.

 

[Sharky1203]

Can government be smaller and more efficient? Yes.
Should our trade partners operate under the same fees, guidelines and rules as us? Yes.
Should NATO countries pay their fair share? Yes.
Should a woman have the right to make decisions about her own body? Yes.
Should kids be educated on real American history (slavery, Japanese internment, etc.)? Yes.
Should trans women (males) be allowed to play women's sports? No.
Should trans people be allowed in the military? Yes.
Should gays be allowed to marry? Yes.
Should there be laws limiting the rights of LGBTQ+ people? No.
Should there be prayer in school? No.
Should we ever take the word of Vladimir Putin over our own intelligence agencies? No
Should there be a U.S. Department of Education? Yes.

I mean, I could go on all day. But give me a candidate or a party who supports most of the above, and I'm down.

I agree with everything but;
Should we ever take the word of Vladimir Putin over our own intelligence agencies? No

We have a bad history with our intel in the past 50 years. Vietnam, Iran, Iraq, etc. Ended up to be the wrong info in some way or another. Now, Putin isn't to be trusted, but neither can Zelensky or our CIA; the RFK files have now proved they aren't to be trusted.

 

[seminole97]

Are you guys that blind by your partisanship that you actually don’t see this stuff?

Talk about living in a fantasy world.

 

[Sharky1203]

This is going to sound very shallow, but they need someone “cool” who can make fun of Trump and his sycophants and people will laugh. Like Obama or Clinton. People didn’t want a prosecutor, that didn’t want the wooden wife of bill, they didn’t want the coach/meathead vibe of walz, they didn’t want someone on the last legs if life like Biden. Just not sure who that is.

Agreed. While Obama did have the hearts of the people, his policies sometimes made them uncomfortable. Clinton, IMO, had positive on both. I really have no idea if there's even willing to step up into this role. Seems that the support of the PACs just aren't there right now for someone like that.

 

[Tenacious E]

Can government be smaller and more efficient? Yes.
Should our trade partners operate under the same fees, guidelines and rules as us? Yes.
Should NATO countries pay their fair share? Yes.
Should a woman have the right to make decisions about her own body? Yes.
Should kids be educated on real American history (slavery, Japanese internment, etc.)? Yes.
Should trans women (males) be allowed to play women's sports? No.
Should trans people be allowed in the military? Yes.
Should gays be allowed to marry? Yes.
Should there be laws limiting the rights of LGBTQ+ people? No.
Should there be prayer in school? No.
Should we ever take the word of Vladimir Putin over our own intelligence agencies? No
Should there be a U.S. Department of Education? Yes.

I mean, I could go on all day. But give me a candidate or a party who supports most of the above, and I'm down.

You have my vote!

 

[noStemsnoSTICKS]

I agree with everything but;
Should we ever take the word of Vladimir Putin over our own intelligence agencies? No

We have a bad history with our intel in the past 50 years. Vietnam, Iran, Iraq, etc. Ended up to be the wrong info in some way or another. Now, Putin isn't to be trusted, but neither can Zelensky or our CIA; the RFK files have now proved they aren't to be trusted.

I didn't say our intelligence agencies were without error or beyond reproach. But in my mind it's never ok to side with a known liar over our own, especially on the world stage.

 

[Sharky1203]

So Donald Trump is a threat to democracy wasn’t the message in 2024? Donald Trump is an Authoritarian and Fascist isn’t the current message right now? MAGA are white power types and Nazis hasn’t been the message since Trumps first term? Jesus Christ, I could go on and on and on about the democrats message on Trump being the opposition with all types of isms that has been thrown around by the Left since he came down that escalator. Are you guys that blind by your partisanship that you actually don’t see this stuff?

Talk about living in a fantasy world.

Psst. they've been doing this for a very long time. Nixon, Reagan, Bush 1, Bush 2, Dole, Romney, etc. It's just who they are. I don't think they could even recognize true fascism and white supremacy anymore.

 

[Tenacious E]

I agree with everything but;
Should we ever take the word of Vladimir Putin over our own intelligence agencies? No

We have a bad history with our intel in the past 50 years. Vietnam, Iran, Iraq, etc. Ended up to be the wrong info in some way or another. Now, Putin isn't to be trusted, but neither can Zelensky or our CIA; the RFK files have now proved they aren't to be trusted.

Man we were in the same page until this. Less than optimal performance of our intelligence agencies does mean they not great most of the time, and it absolutely doesn’t mean we should take putin’s word over theirs. He is a pathological liar and dictator, who is willing to play the long and short game to get what he wants.

 

[Tenacious E]

I didn't say our intelligence agencies were without error or beyond reproach. But in my mind it's never ok to side with a known liar over our own, especially on the world stage.

I’d vote for you.

 

[pjhawk]

So Donald Trump is a threat to democracy wasn’t the message in 2024? Donald Trump is an Authoritarian and Fascist isn’t the current message right now? MAGA are white power types and Nazis hasn’t been the message since Trumps first term? Jesus Christ, I could go on and on and on about the democrats message on Trump being the opposition with all types of isms that has been thrown around by the Left since he came down that escalator. Are you guys that blind by your partisanship that you actually don’t see this stuff?

Talk about living in a fantasy world.

Go look at what the leaders of the Dem party are saying RIGHT NOW, FFS. I've got to work and don't have time for this. You've embedded yourself in bullshit rightwing and MSM media narratives that DO NOT reflect reality.

It's crickets from the current leaders of the Democratic party when it comes to the over-the-top corruption and ongoing destruction of the government by the current Trump administration. They need to be pounding day after day after day and emphasizing that the country is in a national emergency and in a crisis. Because it effing is!

Instead they're doing their usual bland kitchen table bullshit and all is normal criticism of Trump and the Republicans. Their essence is conflict aversion, they are the opposite of what is needed right now.

 

[noStemsnoSTICKS]

Man we were in the same page until this. Less than optimal performance of our intelligence agencies does mean they not great most of the time, and it absolutely doesn’t mean we should take putin’s word over theirs. He is a pathological liar and dictator, who is willing to play the long and short game to get what he wants.

Made my point better than I did.

 

[Tenacious E]

Go look at what the leaders of the Dem party are saying RIGHT NOW, FFS. I've got to work and don't have time for this. You've embedded yourself in bullshit rightwing and MSM media narratives that DO NOT reflect reality.

It's crickets from the current leaders of the Democratic party when it comes to the over-the-top corruption and ongoing destruction of the government by the current Trump administration. They need to be pounding day after day after day and emphasizing that the country is in a national emergency and in a crisis. Because it effing is!

Instead they're doing their usual bland kitchen table bullshit. Their essence is conflict aversion, they are the opposite of what is needed right now.

I have to say I would have expected more rhetoric from politicians like Elizabeth Warren. Seems like fighting this shit is what she lives for.

 

[Moral]

I have to say I would have expected more rhetoric from politicians like Elizabeth Warren. Seems like fighting this shit is what she lives for.

She has done some town halls and used some strong words. Bernie Sanders is pulling huge crowds. AOC has tons of engagement and is going to be hitting the road with Bernie. Walz is doing town halls in red states. There are protests everywhere and basically daily. It's just not really covered by the corporate media.

 

[Tenacious E]

She has done some town halls and used some strong words. Bernie Sanders is pulling huge crowds. AOC has tons of engagement and is going to be hitting the road with Bernie. Walz is doing town halls in red states. There are protests everywhere and basically daily. It's just not really covered by the corporate media.

Fair enough.

 

[TC Nole OX]

Looks like some other people see this the same way as me. It appears Koch and other wealthy people are behind this Abundance movement thing too. Kill it with fire.

The Abundance Agenda: Neoliberalism’s Rebrand

The new centrist push to regain control of the Democratic Party, with corporate money

prospect.org

Yep. When I first saw it, I called it putting a ribbon on a turd. Now we learn that it is a billionaire funded initiative. That makes complete sense.

 

[pjhawk]

She has done some town halls and used some strong words. Bernie Sanders is pulling huge crowds. AOC has tons of engagement and is going to be hitting the road with Bernie. Walz is doing town halls in red states. There are protests everywhere and basically daily. It's just not really covered by the corporate media.

The problem is the official party line is crickets. You have individuals like Bernie, Walz, etc doing/saying stuff but there is no ongoing coordinated response/attack from the party and current party leaders. It's infuriating.