USA Wrestling

[Descat1]

west2east thinks everything is perfect and nothing should be tweaked, adjusted, altered or reconfigured based on current status of the world? I guess, we can keep this process for the next century. Smart thinking! I wonder if our businesses or any business should just say, this is what we do, how we do it and if the marketplace changes--they can all go to hell.

ff141 is tossing ideas out and that is what I am saying, there has to be a better process. This was woeful. The Pan Am is the weakest qualifier, we should take advantage of it versus letting it abuse us. And by the way, the Pakistan wrestler is a better wrestler than many in the Pan Am bracket, so keep trying to cover your tracks regarding not knowing the facts.

It's not hard to see that our USA staff set up a poor process to place our country in the best position to win and Richards is a good example of this... I have nothing against Zain. He had a breakout year, but he has not done well in his last three tournaments, so we send him based on the PAST... Again, we can do better. We have a full-time paid staff to come up with better systems. We should expect better from them.

 

[ff141]

west2east thinks everything is perfect and nothing should be tweaked, adjusted, altered or reconfigured based on current status of the world? I guess, we can keep this process for the next century. Smart thinking! I wonder if our businesses or any business should just say, this is what we do, how we do it and if the marketplace changes--they can all go to hell.

ff141 is tossing ideas out and that is what I am saying, there has to be a better process. This was woeful. The Pan Am is the weakest qualifier, we should take advantage of it versus letting it abuse us. And by the way, the Pakistan wrestler is a better wrestler than many in the Pan Am bracket, so keep trying to cover your tracks regarding not knowing the facts.

It's not hard to see that our USA staff set up a poor process to place our country in the best position to win and Richards is a good example of this... I have nothing against Zain. He had a breakout year, but he has not done well in his last three tournaments, so we send him based on the PAST... Again, we can do better. We have a full-time paid staff to come up with better systems. We should expect better from them.

I think the current process gives too much deference to ncaa participants. If u go early in the year with a ott for weights not qualified it gives them the opportunity without messing too much with conference tourneys. When there’s 3 world medalist that don’t challenge a guy in the current process you have to ask why. I don’t this the whole system needs blown up but maybe some tweeks.

 

[Grip220]

So add another weigh in and competition? Our last few world reps Gilman,Fix and Vito didn't challenge because of that . We were supposed to have a 4 man ladder tournament yet 3 guys decided against it. Not sure that solves anything. Everyone knew the process well in advance

absolutely, we need to qualify the weight and so far we did not at 57 and 65. This should not be left to the last chance, something has to change, especially on an Olympic cycle!

 

[west2east]

west2east thinks everything is perfect and nothing should be tweaked, adjusted, altered or reconfigured based on current status of the world? I guess, we can keep this process for the next century. Smart thinking! I wonder if our businesses or any business should just say, this is what we do, how we do it and if the marketplace changes--they can all go to hell.

ff141 is tossing ideas out and that is what I am saying, there has to be a better process. This was woeful. The Pan Am is the weakest qualifier, we should take advantage of it versus letting it abuse us. And by the way, the Pakistan wrestler is a better wrestler than many in the Pan Am bracket, so keep trying to cover your tracks regarding not knowing the facts.

It's not hard to see that our USA staff set up a poor process to place our country in the best position to win and Richards is a good example of this... I have nothing against Zain. He had a breakout year, but he has not done well in his last three tournaments, so we send him based on the PAST... Again, we can do better. We have a full-time paid staff to come up with better systems. We should expect better from them.

Write a letter with your recommendations to UsaW. I don't mind the process one bit . You obviously do so try getting it changed

 

[T8KUDWN]

When I say international competition I mean legit competition. Should've clarified that . I get everyone thinking Spencer is the best guy that an opinion. We have a process everyone was well aware of prior. Spencer chose to not wrestle internationally during college and therefore he wasn't an option. He still has opportunities to qualify the weight. The process and system in place isn't broke. We are the best we have been in a longtime. Everyone will have an opportunity to qualify the weight by winning trials. If our rep can't qualify the weight at the last chance qualifier they definitely wouldn't medal at the Olympics

Why do you have to keep referencing “Spencer chose not to wrestle internationally during college”? Seems like you keep repeating yourself and talking in circles on the qualifying process. To be honest, Spencer’s knees kept him from wrestling internationally during college. It’s not like said “nah, no freestyle competition for me until college is done.”

 

[west2east]

Why do you have to keep referencing “Spencer chose not to wrestle internationally during college”? Seems like you keep repeating yourself and talking in circles on the qualifying process. To be honest, Spencer’s knees kept him from wrestling internationally during college. It’s not like said “nah, no freestyle competition for me until college is done.”

Because the people arguing the process needs to be changed think he should've been the guy instead of Richards. Regardless of why he didn't compete he didn't therefore he wasn't an option. We will never have a process where we just choose who the guy is. I said this was the 1t time 3 guys declined maybe in the future if that happens you allow the US nationals winner a change to challenge. So I'm not against some change but to act like our system is broken is ridiculous

 

[eb05]

Because the people arguing the process needs to be changed think he should've been the guy instead of Richards.

fake news. sure i think he’s better than richards but i have not once said he should have been the rep. we all know the reasons why he wasn’t eligible under the current procedures.

 

[T8KUDWN]

Because the people arguing the process needs to be changed think he should've been the guy instead of Richards. Regardless of why he didn't compete he didn't therefore he wasn't an option. We will never have a process where we just choose who the guy is. I said this was the 1t time 3 guys declined maybe in the future if that happens you allow the US nationals winner a change to challenge. So I'm not against some change but to act like our system is broken is ridiculous

Why change it if it’s not broken??
And yes there needs to be changes made.

 

[jneffer]

fake news. sure i think he’s better than richards but i have not once said he should have been the rep. we all know the reasons why he wasn’t eligible under the current procedures.

so, who should have been the rep at 57? one of the guys who declined the opportunity to chanllenge for the spot?

only change I can see is adding winner of senior nationals to the list of guys who can challenge for the spot

but whatever system we have, bad stuff might happen...that's wrestling. doesn't mean we have to scrap the system

 

[Grip220]

Spencer was at two tournaments that he won prior to the Pan Am's, they could have easily made one of these a pre qualifier for the pan Am qualifier. Then we would have seen beat Richard's or anyone else that wanted to be there.

 

[ff141]

so, who should have been the rep at 57? one of the guys who declined the opportunity to chanllenge for the spot?

only change I can see is adding winner of senior nationals to the list of guys who can challenge for the spot

but whatever system we have, bad stuff might happen...that's wrestling. doesn't mean we have to scrap the system

Whoever is going to rep us for the Olympics barring injury

 

[eb05]

so, who should have been the rep at 57? one of the guys who declined the opportunity to chanllenge for the spot?

only change I can see is adding winner of senior nationals to the list of guys who can challenge for the spot

but whatever system we have, bad stuff might happen...that's wrestling. doesn't mean we have to scrap the system

i have said my opinion multiple times in multiple threads. i don’t want to scrap the system at all, just move up the timeline in olympic years only so the trials is before the qualifiers. it’s just moving up the trials two months.

 

[jrod65]

*warning* long post incoming

@Descat1

Let me preface this by saying that I appreciate your viewpoints(other posters as well) on the process. The Olympics are the pinnacle of the sport and I'm sure we all agree that we want team USA to be set up for success and have the best possible team at the games. I understand the frustration with the USA not qualifying the two weights at Pan Ams. Weights that the US has a plethora(love that word) of top tier talent.

I do not agree that the system is broken however. Some tweaks; probably(one I'll get to later), broken; I don't believe so.

Zane was I believe 3-0 against Cruz, and Nick had just pinned Gomez at Worlds. Both were favorites, probably heavy favorites, to qualify the weight, but it didn't happen. Hard to blame the process here. They were in a fantastic spot to qualify the weights. But, it's wrestling and surprises happen, a lot.

Backing up a step, the process allowed for World medalists to challenge Zane/Nick for the opportunity to compete at the qualifier as they didn't medal at Worlds. An Olympic bronze(Gilman), a World gold(Vito), and a World silver(Fix) all declined the chance at being the rep for 57. World gold(Zain) also declined the chance at 65. They all had their reasons, but still, the process provided the opportunity for all of these proven World level athletes to qualify the weight.

Backing up one more step, the process also allows for every single wrestler to get the chance to qualify the weight at Worlds. Zane and Nick earned their place on the World team.

It may all boil down to a personal opinion on what is the key component in the process. Should it be:

A process that allows for discretion(picking an athlete) to maximize potential to qualify the weights?
or
A process that is based upon wrestlers "earning" the opportunity to try and qualify the weights?

Each have their pitfalls and merits(politics, less credentialed wrestlers at quallifiers, etc). I personally prefer the latter, which is what I feel the current process is geared toward.

One thing I would change about the current process is finding a way to incentivize every single one of the eligible World medalists to compete for the opportunity to qualify the weight, if it doesn't happen at Worlds. Crazy to me that guys are willingly leaving it up to someone else to get the quota.

I would offer the "pass to best-of-3 finals at OTTs" for whomever qualifies the weight for the Olympics. They already do it for the previous years' World medalists, why limit it to that one event? Give the pass to anyone that gets the Olympic quota. Worlds, Pan Ams, whatever. You get the quota, you sit in the finals of OTTS. May just have enticed a few of those guys that declined Pan Ams OQ to go for it. Which would help ensure best possible options are at the qualifiers. Just a thought.

Ok, long post over. Respect to anyone that made it to the end....

 

[Descat1]

Agree with your post. My entire point was that the current process needs to be altered, tweaked, examined. Your comments support this approach. I agree.

 

[HikeNatParks]

*warning* long post incoming

@Descat1

Let me preface this by saying that I appreciate your viewpoints(other posters as well) on the process. The Olympics are the pinnacle of the sport and I'm sure we all agree that we want team USA to be set up for success and have the best possible team at the games. I understand the frustration with the USA not qualifying the two weights at Pan Ams. Weights that the US has a plethora(love that word) of top tier talent.

I do not agree that the system is broken however. Some tweaks; probably(one I'll get to later), broken; I don't believe so.

Zane was I believe 3-0 against Cruz, and Nick had just pinned Gomez at Worlds. Both were favorites, probably heavy favorites, to qualify the weight, but it didn't happen. Hard to blame the process here. They were in a fantastic spot to qualify the weights. But, it's wrestling and surprises happen, a lot.

Backing up a step, the process allowed for World medalists to challenge Zane/Nick for the opportunity to compete at the qualifier as they didn't medal at Worlds. An Olympic bronze(Gilman), a World gold(Vito), and a World silver(Fix) all declined the chance at being the rep for 57. World gold(Zain) also declined the chance at 65. They all had their reasons, but still, the process provided the opportunity for all of these proven World level athletes to qualify the weight.

Backing up one more step, the process also allows for every single wrestler to get the chance to qualify the weight at Worlds. Zane and Nick earned their place on the World team.

It may all boil down to a personal opinion on what is the key component in the process. Should it be:

A process that allows for discretion(picking an athlete) to maximize potential to qualify the weights?
or
A process that is based upon wrestlers "earning" the opportunity to try and qualify the weights?

Each have their pitfalls and merits(politics, less credentialed wrestlers at quallifiers, etc). I personally prefer the latter, which is what I feel the current process is geared toward.

One thing I would change about the current process is finding a way to incentivize every single one of the eligible World medalists to compete for the opportunity to qualify the weight, if it doesn't happen at Worlds. Crazy to me that guys are willingly leaving it up to someone else to get the quota.

I would offer the "pass to best-of-3 finals at OTTs" for whomever qualifies the weight for the Olympics. They already do it for the previous years' World medalists, why limit it to that one event? Give the pass to anyone that gets the Olympic quota. Worlds, Pan Ams, whatever. You get the quota, you sit in the finals of OTTS. May just have enticed a few of those guys that declined Pan Ams OQ to go for it. Which would help ensure best possible options are at the qualifiers. Just a thought.

Ok, long post over. Respect to anyone that made it to the end....

“Long” ain’t bad when it includes a sound argument and thoughtful solution that incents prior World medalists to help secure future Oly quotas. I prefer “earning” over “discretion”, too, but also accept that however the opportunity was gained is no guarantee of its desired result.
Per Zane and Nick, wrestlers losing to opponents they’ve beaten before is hardly rare. Even worthwhile changes to the qualification process won’t prevent that happening in the future.
That said, if there's a way Spencer can save 57 this time around, I'll bet he does.

 

[acuhawk]

Aren't Fix, Gilman, and Vito getting a monthly stipend from USA wrestling? If so, they should all lose that stipend.

 

[acuhawk]

The US nationals bracket that had Spencer and Megaludis in it ? Nobody who was top 3 on the ladder competed. Now maybe in the future they could say if everyone declines the challenge then the US Nationals winner could challenge. But just picking a guy because fans of one team thinks he's the best isn't the answer. And that guy hasn't competed internationally in years. And I like Spencer but we can't start picking. And nobody picked Daton or Vito they earned it by being world team members while Spencer chose to not do Freestyle for years

Fans of one team my ass. Try fans of about every team in the country.

He's lost to quality international guys this year while Spencer beat Megaludis. And Spencer wrestled no international guys before Pan ams. This is the 1st time 3 guys declined the challenge matches. So I'm ok with saying in the future if that happens again then the US nationals winner can challenge for the spot. But we can't just do the eyeball test and pick. What do people want a twitter poll deciding the guy

So has he beaten anyone good in these international events or is it all of his quality losses that has you so impressed by his resume?

If our rep can't qualify the weight at the last chance qualifier they definitely wouldn't medal at the Olympics

This is an asinine statement. Just a few reasons why a guy may not qualify the weight, but be good enough to medal in the Olympics would be injury sustained in the trials gauntlet, sick during the qualifier, poor match up, bad officiating, had a bad day/cut, etc. Do you think Lee and Zain should be allowed to wrestle in the trials since there's no way they could medal at the Olympics? They failed to qualify in the easiest qualifier out there so bringing home a medal is a pipe dream.

 

[acuhawk]

I wasn’t saying Spencer should have got the chance to qualify the weight. It’s unfortunate none of the guys stepped up to challenge for the spot. My main point is Zane is not real successful on the international stage. It’s not a shocker to me at all that he did not get the job done.

I don't think any fan out there was shocked that Zane didn't get it done. Coaches heads should roll for sending Zane. I would start with Carl for not keeping Gilman's weight in check and making him go.