Uvalde and Uvalde Police have hired a private law firm to fight against being required to release body camera footage and other records

Old_wrestling_fan

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The lower level guys aren't at fault. But the more experienced LEO's should have relied on their training sooner. Pretty sure the 4 who breached the room weren't under his command in any way. Sometimes doing the right thing means going counter of the boss. This certainly falls under extraordinary circumstances.
Mainly agree. But...after 70'ish minutes had elapsed, some finally had enough of the waiting and took action in what sounds like an independent manner. I personally support their move...given that it likely became apparent that command was faltering and/or non-existant and lives were potentially at stake, etc.

But...in the early stages of the mayhem, when no one could have known that there was about to be a cluster f&$# from the commander, the cops staged in the hallway SHOULD NOT have gone "cowboy" and violated orders/protocol. They should have been working under competent command and communication of some sort and should follow that command/direction.

For a department that actually had done some training in this area, to learn afterwards that no one was in charge, etc, is exceedingly disappointing. The command(ers) should be removed, they didn't do their job. Establishing who was "calling the shots" should have been natural and easy, governed by training, etc. Yet, Arredondo fell down hard right away on this most basic element of his position.
 

tumorboy

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Mainly agree. But...after 70'ish minutes had elapsed, some finally had enough of the waiting and took action in what sounds like an independent manner. I personally support their move...given that it likely became apparent that command was faltering and/or non-existant and lives were potentially at stake, etc.

But...in the early stages of the mayhem, when no one could have known that there was about to be a cluster f&$# from the commander, the cops staged in the hallway SHOULD NOT have gone "cowboy" and violated orders/protocol. They should have been working under competent command and communication of some sort and should follow that command/direction.

For a department that actually had done some training in this area, to learn afterwards that no one was in charge, etc, is exceedingly disappointing. The command(ers) should be removed, they didn't do their job. Establishing who was "calling the shots" should have been natural and easy, governed by training, etc. Yet, Arredondo fell down hard right away on this most basic element of his position.
Agree mostly just felt it took too long for guys to cowboy up. About 10 to 15 mins after long guns and blast shields were present would have been enough for me to say FU write me up. The kill shot came from a Border Agent who drove 40 miles to be there. Still not sure what they were equipped with other than helmets, shotguns and body armor. Assume they had a blast shield but who knows.
 

Old_wrestling_fan

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Agree mostly just felt it took too long for guys to cowboy up. About 10 to 15 mins after long guns and blast shields were present would have been enough for me to say FU write me up. The kill shot came from a Border Agent who drove 40 miles to be there. Still not sure what they were equipped with other than helmets, shotguns and body armor. Assume they had a blast shield but who knows.
What I hope can happen in the aftermath of this terrible response is that at least other law enforcement agencies can study it and learn from it. There would seem to be several very ripe opportunities here for others to learn from and be better prepared, etc.

#1 to me is what is the protocol for someone "on the ground" to countermand an order and/or to relieve the failing commander...when it is abundantly clear that things are failing, etc. I still do feel strongly that the order of the day cannot be "cowboy", each person acting independently, BUT...when it is clear that the boss is frozen up, etc, someone needs to be able to break that impasse...in a way that does unnecessarily jeopardize additional lives, etc.

I made mention somewhere, perhaps in a different thread, that law enforcement agencies need to learn from this and develop practices and protocols as did the airline industry after a couple/few airline crashes that should have never happened. The common theme was that the #1 pilot clutched up and no one had the authority, training, etc, to in essence "snap him out of it" and stop the insanity...and then the plane crashed.

To me, there are great similarities here. Normally, you absolutely want a clear "command and control" environment in law enforcement emergency response and flying a plane. Also normally, the pilot or LEO command is well prepared to handle the situation and all is well. But...in some cases of extreme stress...humans fail...even well trained and well intentioned humans.

When others can see that the response is off the rails...there needs to be an orderly way for subordinates to intervene and get the response back on track.
 

Herky T Hawk

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What I hope can happen in the aftermath of this terrible response is that at least other law enforcement agencies can study it and learn from it. There would seem to be several very ripe opportunities here for others to learn from and be better prepared, etc.

#1 to me is what is the protocol for someone "on the ground" to countermand an order and/or to relieve the failing commander...when it is abundantly clear that things are failing, etc. I still do feel strongly that the order of the day cannot be "cowboy", each person acting independently, BUT...when it is clear that the boss is frozen up, etc, someone needs to be able to break that impasse...in a way that does unnecessarily jeopardize additional lives, etc.

I made mention somewhere, perhaps in a different thread, that law enforcement agencies need to learn from this and develop practices and protocols as did the airline industry after a couple/few airline crashes that should have never happened. The common theme was that the #1 pilot clutched up and no one had the authority, training, etc, to in essence "snap him out of it" and stop the insanity...and then the plane crashed.

To me, there are great similarities here. Normally, you absolutely want a clear "command and control" environment in law enforcement emergency response and flying a plane. Also normally, the pilot or LEO command is well prepared to handle the situation and all is well. But...in some cases of extreme stress...humans fail...even well trained and well intentioned humans.

When others can see that the response is off the rails...there needs to be an orderly way for subordinates to intervene and get the response back on track.
What you're talking about is what I posted earlier. Public entities have followed the ICS, Incident Command System, for decades to handle exactly what you're talking about. The chief just didn't follow it for some reason.
 
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Old_wrestling_fan

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What you're talking about is what I posted earlier. Public entities have followed the ICS, Incident Command System, for decades to handle exactly what you're talking about. The chief just didn't follow it for some reason.
Actually...I think there may a different protocol for the airline industry. I need to refresh my memory and look that up. Perhaps a merging of sorts between the ICS and the airline thingy???
 

tumorboy

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What I hope can happen in the aftermath of this terrible response is that at least other law enforcement agencies can study it and learn from it. There would seem to be several very ripe opportunities here for others to learn from and be better prepared, etc.

#1 to me is what is the protocol for someone "on the ground" to countermand an order and/or to relieve the failing commander...when it is abundantly clear that things are failing, etc. I still do feel strongly that the order of the day cannot be "cowboy", each person acting independently, BUT...when it is clear that the boss is frozen up, etc, someone needs to be able to break that impasse...in a way that does unnecessarily jeopardize additional lives, etc.

I made mention somewhere, perhaps in a different thread, that law enforcement agencies need to learn from this and develop practices and protocols as did the airline industry after a couple/few airline crashes that should have never happened. The common theme was that the #1 pilot clutched up and no one had the authority, training, etc, to in essence "snap him out of it" and stop the insanity...and then the plane crashed.

To me, there are great similarities here. Normally, you absolutely want a clear "command and control" environment in law enforcement emergency response and flying a plane. Also normally, the pilot or LEO command is well prepared to handle the situation and all is well. But...in some cases of extreme stress...humans fail...even well trained and well intentioned humans.

When others can see that the response is off the rails...there needs to be an orderly way for subordinates to intervene and get the response back on track.
Inaction seems to be the worst possible response. They gave the shooter time to do whatever he wanted in those rooms.
On our recent Hawaii trip. Had an elderly couple with two massive sets of luggage going up a 100 ft escalator. About half way up the old man lost his balance and began barrel rolling down. Which means he was stuck tumbling in limbo. If some one hits the emergency stop button he's at best getting a severe concussion. Was at the base of the escalator and first to respond. Both of my balance nerves are cut. I'm unsteady as well. But my instinct response is try to help which I was able to hoist the old fella upright with only his pride and minor cuts for injuries. Put my health at risk and wasn't even paid for it.
These guys waited too long.
 
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gohawks50

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11:52 they were in the school.

So the question is, when were the shots fired which killed the students/teachers??????

Before or after?
One of the teachers was still alive when they finally killed the gunman, she might have survived if the police had acted earlier. Also there was a boy that could have survived, but bled out due to the slow response.
 
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ANYCHawk

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Mainly agree. But...after 70'ish minutes had elapsed, some finally had enough of the waiting and took action in what sounds like an independent manner. I personally support their move...given that it likely became apparent that command was faltering and/or non-existant and lives were potentially at stake, etc.

But...in the early stages of the mayhem, when no one could have known that there was about to be a cluster f&$# from the commander, the cops staged in the hallway SHOULD NOT have gone "cowboy" and violated orders/protocol. They should have been working under competent command and communication of some sort and should follow that command/direction.

For a department that actually had done some training in this area, to learn afterwards that no one was in charge, etc, is exceedingly disappointing. The command(ers) should be removed, they didn't do their job. Establishing who was "calling the shots" should have been natural and easy, governed by training, etc. Yet, Arredondo fell down hard right away on this most basic element of his position.

This post shows a compelte lack of understanding of modern police training.

It's not cowboying up. It's called neutralizing the threat and its been standard police practice since columbine in a mass shooter. You do not wait for backup or a senior leader to tell you what to do. First guy at the scene job is to get the suspect description and find the janitor for a layout of the facility. Next two guys to arrive go stop the killing.

No cop should ever stage for more than about 1 minute in an active shooter event.
 

tarheelbybirth

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Mainly agree. But...after 70'ish minutes had elapsed, some finally had enough of the waiting and took action in what sounds like an independent manner. I personally support their move...given that it likely became apparent that command was faltering and/or non-existant and lives were potentially at stake, etc.

But...in the early stages of the mayhem, when no one could have known that there was about to be a cluster f&$# from the commander, the cops staged in the hallway SHOULD NOT have gone "cowboy" and violated orders/protocol. They should have been working under competent command and communication of some sort and should follow that command/direction.

For a department that actually had done some training in this area, to learn afterwards that no one was in charge, etc, is exceedingly disappointing. The command(ers) should be removed, they didn't do their job. Establishing who was "calling the shots" should have been natural and easy, governed by training, etc. Yet, Arredondo fell down hard right away on this most basic element of his position.
In an active shooting scenario, LEOs do NOT wait for command. Their training and duty are to engage the shooter as soon as possible.
 

Old_wrestling_fan

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This post shows a compelte lack of understanding of modern police training.

It's not cowboying up. It's called neutralizing the threat and its been standard police practice since columbine in a mass shooter. You do not wait for backup or a senior leader to tell you what to do. First guy at the scene job is to get the suspect description and find the janitor for a layout of the facility. Next two guys to arrive go stop the killing.

No cop should ever stage for more than about 1 minute in an active shooter event.
I think you are the one with no understanding of modern police training. Yes, they SHOULD have actively sought the shooter. NO, they should not do so when instructed or commanded otherwise. Command failed.
 

tarheelbybirth

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I think you are the one with no understanding of modern police training. Yes, they SHOULD have actively sought the shooter. NO, they should not do so when instructed or commanded otherwise. Command failed.
You completely missed the point. They should have never waited for "command". They have a sworn duty to move on the shooter at all costs. Period.
 

Old_wrestling_fan

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In an active shooting scenario, LEOs do NOT wait for command. Their training and duty are to engage the shooter as soon as possible.
And AGAIN for all of the non-readers here, of which you are one of the prime ones tarheel, it was not being considered an active shooter situation. It should have been,,,but they were following the the hostage/barricade protocol.

Yes, they were considering it a hostage/barricade situation in error, but that explains the decision(s) to hold back.
 

tarheelbybirth

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And AGAIN for all of the non-readers here, of which you are one of the prime ones tarheel, it was not being considered an active shooter situation. It should have been,,,but they were following the the hostage/barricade protocol.

Yes, they were considering it a hostage/barricade situation in error, but that explains the decision(s) to hold back.
They don't make that call. They don't wait on command to make that call. They have an active gunman IN A SCHOOL. They move on him at all costs. This is cut-and-dried. My brother was a LEO for twenty-five years and his wife is an active duty LEO who served as an SRO for ten years and is currently head of security at a local college. So for you "non-readers"...their take trumps yours.
 

tarheelbybirth

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All law enforcement has some sort of command structure or protocol. To think otherwise is foolishness. Where do you get these ideas? The movies?
LOL...already answered. And you just dumped on yourself. Their PROTOCOL is to advance on the gunman without hesitation.
 

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