We need a new rule.

[WWDMHawkeye]

We've seen the top man run the bottom man out of bounds when he's gotten to his feet countless times this weekend. This needs to be called stalling. For some reason, this seemed to be a more obvious occurrence to us this weekend than it has in the past. Whatever the case, the top man shouldn't be able to just run, walk, push, or pull the bottom man out of bounds to avoid giving up an escape without consequences.

 

[Vallholl]

Get it done.

 

[UndercoverHawk]

We've seen the top man run the bottom man out of bounds when he's gotten to his feet countless times this weekend. This needs to be called stalling. For some reason, this seemed to be a more obvious occurrence to us this weekend than it has in the past. Whatever the case, the top man shouldn't be able to just run, walk, push, or pull the bottom man out of bounds to avoid giving up an escape without consequences.

Only potential problem I see is then if bottom man gets to feet he sprints for edge to try and get stall call. This could be stalling on bottom for fleeing. Maybe first time is free. Second time is stalling on top but we go to neutral with no escape given.

 

[WWDMHawkeye]

Get it done.

I'm on it!

 

[WWDMHawkeye]

Only potential problem I see is then if bottom man gets to feet he sprints for edge to try and get stall call. This could be stalling on bottom for fleeing. Maybe first time is free. Second time is stalling on top but we go to neutral with no escape given.

That occurred to me. I think it's clear whether the top man is forcing the action out of bounds or the bottom man is initiating it. I think it would be easy to enforce.

 

[TailgateTom]

The Tony Nelson rule.

 

[Azchief32]

We've seen the top man run the bottom man out of bounds when he's gotten to his feet countless times this weekend. This needs to be called stalling. For some reason, this seemed to be a more obvious occurrence to us this weekend than it has in the past. Whatever the case, the top man shouldn't be able to just run, walk, push, or pull the bottom man out of bounds to avoid giving up an escape without consequences.

This is true...a certain former Hawk with the initials E.B. was not impressed. Only complaint he had about the PSU wrestlers and kept on asking...how is that not stalling? They keep on running them OOB. I get the strategery near the edge but a guy stands up in the middle and the get pushed out all the way. Was a theme with PSU and as i recall, they used to make fun of Big Tony Nelson from Minne for doing it.

 

[CFNiteHawk85]

What I want to see is riding time not being accumulated when the top man is clearly no longer in control. If the top man loses control with no separation, stop the RT clock. If he regains control, resume RT.

 

[Keeker16]

I would like to get rid of riding time

 

[21Guns]

What I want to see is riding time not being accumulated when the top man is clearly no longer in control. If the top man loses control with no separation, stop the RT clock. If he regains control, resume RT.

Exactly. When the bottom man clears and gets in on the leg of the top man, the escape needs called then and there. The bottom man should not be penalized with accrued riding time, when he goes from bottom, to control of the leg on a shot. If the reversal does not happen immediately, call the escape and get it right.

 

[wad57]

We've seen the top man run the bottom man out of bounds when he's gotten to his feet countless times this weekend. This needs to be called stalling. For some reason, this seemed to be a more obvious occurrence to us this weekend than it has in the past. Whatever the case, the top man shouldn't be able to just run, walk, push, or pull the bottom man out of bounds to avoid giving up an escape without consequences.

I agree but refs can't seem to handle responsibility. I remember Dake doing that to DSJ in the finals and it was really frustrating.

 

[21Guns]

As far as the pushouts go, I gotta go back to the tape and watch again. Obviously if someone like Ed Banach has a problem with it, then it needs addressed. Whether, or not, one of my wrestlers did it tonight. If so, then I agree, we got away with it and yep, it needs called.

Just bein honest.

 

[WWDMHawkeye]

I'll add that I think they should also get rid of riding time, get rid of the current out-of-bounds rule, and replace it with a push-out, but this baloney about the top man just taking the bottom man out of bounds to avoid the escape needs to end.

 

[Jaybird319]

While I'm still up. Lets just get rid of fleeing the mat rule. It's so subjective to each ref.

Just install push out and stop dance around this issue for the next decade

 

[chuck285]

What I want to see is riding time not being accumulated when the top man is clearly no longer in control. If the top man loses control with no separation, stop the RT clock. If he regains control, resume RT.

I would agree but we all agree this would extend all matches by 2 to l3 min. Every time this happens then there would have to be a replay to be sure everything was correct. The concept would be great but the result would really slow things down and give too many wrestlers time to recoup...

 

[Cali_Nittany]

When I saw the title of this thread I thought you wanted to ban Penn State from wrestling. But I do see your point.

 

[TailgateTom]

When I saw the title of this thread I thought you wanted to ban Penn State from wrestling. But I do see your point.

You were so close, too. : (

 

[bphawkeye_Rivals]

When I saw the title of this thread I thought you wanted to ban Penn State from wrestling. But I do see your point.

really - you want to tee that one up .... I think they did ban penn state coaches from wrestling little boys in the showers

 

[AFHawk86]

I'll add that I think they should also get rid of riding time, get rid of the current out-of-bounds rule, and replace it with a push-out, but this baloney about the top man just taking the bottom man out of bounds to avoid the escape needs to end.

THIS^^

Anything that requires more discernment and courage from the refs is bad for the sport. Eliminate the referee to the greatest extent possible and wrestling will improve.

 

[FrontHeadlock2]

There are a lot of arbitrary distinctions for stalling.

For example, holding an ankle with a hand while on top is automatically stalling after a 5 count, yet riding an Okie on that same leg is totally fine.

The situation posted by the OP is another one.

I also personally do not like the constant grabbing of an ankle to force a stalemate when a wrestler is in on a shot. If you do it once or twice, ok I guess. If you're doing it 7 or 8 times in a match, imo it's stalling. You're purposely avoiding action.

 

[CumberlandHawk]

I would like to get rid of riding time

While I'm still up. Lets just get rid of fleeing the mat rule. It's so subjective to each ref.

Just install push out and stop dance around this issue for the next decade

If we get rid of riding time and install a pushout rule matches would have a lot more action. Why ride a guy you cant turn and risk a stalling call? Why back up if you will lose a point This seems rather simple really.

 

[FrontHeadlock2]

If we get rid of riding time and install a pushout rule matches would have a lot more action. Why ride a guy you cant turn and risk a stalling call? Why back up if you will lose a point This seems rather simple really.

Riding time has always had three issues imo:

First, as you said, in encourages lack of action.

Second, it provides a double reward. I've always viewed the benefit of riding as preventing your opponent from getting an escape and from otherwise scoring more generally. It also wears him out and gives the top man an opportunity to turn/pin. Why does it need a double reward?

Finally, sometimes the way riding time is accrued is arbitrary. You can accrue close to a minute of riding time by getting into a couple funky situations following a TD or when bottom man is trying to escape -- situations where the two wrestlers would normally be "neutral" if one hadn't previously gained control.

 

[Keeker16]

When I saw the title of this thread I thought you wanted to ban Penn State from wrestling. But I do see your point.

I second this one while we are at it.

 

[jvclark]

What I want to see is riding time not being accumulated when the top man is clearly no longer in control. If the top man loses control with no separation, stop the RT clock. If he regains control, resume RT.

I like your idea, but way to subjective to be scored effectively. Just get rid of riding time all together. It's a scoring systtem that is from a wrestling world long gone. Back when stalling was actually called the right amount. Don't reward a kid for just controlling someone, reward them for scoring points. Period

 

[21Guns]

Stalling is a very subjective kind of call, but I think the officials have began to be more passive, in the approach to calling it. I have zero data to prove my point, just sort of my gut feeling on it right now.

If you are referring to Mark Hall, I will remind you that Jordan did not shoot, and was hoping to rely on pushing Hall, for the call, and I will also remind you that Mark Hall shot with 10 seconds left, and it was not an "after the fact" shot, it was a risky gamble that, if countered, would have lost the match for him.

Mark Hall was not stalling, and it was a good no call, and I'm not saying that because I'm a Penn State man. Mark Hall out wrestled Bo Jordan and the better man won last night.

 

[Grip220]

We've seen the top man run the bottom man out of bounds when he's gotten to his feet countless times this weekend. This needs to be called stalling. For some reason, this seemed to be a more obvious occurrence to us this weekend than it has in the past. Whatever the case, the top man shouldn't be able to just run, walk, push, or pull the bottom man out of bounds to avoid giving up an escape without consequences.

I agree its easy to evaluate if a top man is attempting to bring the bottom guy back to the mat or merely holding around the waist going for a ride or hanging on. I feel the same way about throwing in a leg after a man stands or better yet pinching a leg while riding all are stalling!! You are not moving from parallel or working towards anything if your pinching a leg... I hate it

 

[nearfall2]

We've seen the top man run the bottom man out of bounds when he's gotten to his feet countless times this weekend. This needs to be called stalling. For some reason, this seemed to be a more obvious occurrence to us this weekend than it has in the past. Whatever the case, the top man shouldn't be able to just run, walk, push, or pull the bottom man out of bounds to avoid giving up an escape without consequences.

The worst were the guys who pushed the bottom man to the edge. Then when the bottom man turned to stay in bounds the top guy pulls them off the mat. No call.

 

[pointtheway]

They instituted the automatic 5 second stall call for grabbing an ankle while riding. Refs enforce that consistently and making the counting obvious. We need the same thing for a standup. As soon as the bottom wrestler stands up, the ref needs to start counting to five. Either return the wrestler to the mat, or release him in 5 seconds. If they end up out of bounds on their feet, then restart down. Most times you should get to the five count before getting driven out of bounds. If the top man obviously drives the guy out of bounds in that standup position, then that should be a stall call. They seldom make that call now. Last night Snyder actually pulled Medbery backwards out of bounds, and they didn't make the call.

The standup five count should also apply if the top wrestler has a leg in. The current rules for that situation are ridiculous. They currently call the bottom man for stalling if the top man has a leg in and the bottom man stands up. That's ridiculous. The objective of the bottom man is to escape, which usually involves standing up.


Also, a few years ago they instituted the "Delgado rule" in which they are supposed to call stalling if you go out of bounds in neutral position when not engaged with the opponent. The refs seem to have nearly abandoned making that call. It is called very inconsistently now.. It needs to be more automatic to make guys work harder to wrestle in the center of the mat. I don't necessarily want a push out rule since sometimes edge of the mat wrestling is exciting, and I don't want folkstyle to become sumo wrestling like it seems freestyle is at times. They could avoid the need for a push out rule if they'd just enfoce the "Delgado rule". Wrestlers would adapt and do less edge of mat wrestling.

 

[diggerpup]

We've seen the top man run the bottom man out of bounds when he's gotten to his feet countless times this weekend. This needs to be called stalling. For some reason, this seemed to be a more obvious occurrence to us this weekend than it has in the past. Whatever the case, the top man shouldn't be able to just run, walk, push, or pull the bottom man out of bounds to avoid giving up an escape without consequences.

Derek St John made a living off of this "technique".

 

[cidhawkeye]

Stalling is a very subjective kind of call, but I think the officials have began to be more passive, in the approach to calling it. I have zero data to prove my point, just sort of my gut feeling on it right now.

If you are referring to Mark Hall, I will remind you that Jordan did not shoot, and was hoping to rely on pushing Hall, for the call, and I will also remind you that Mark Hall shot with 10 seconds left, and it was not an "after the fact" shot, it was a risky gamble that, if countered, would have lost the match for him.

Mark Hall was not stalling, and it was a good no call, and I'm not saying that because I'm a Penn State man. Mark Hall out wrestled Bo Jordan and the better man won last night.

The announcers disagreed with you

 

[anon_hc7hkvtk15hp5]

I wondered in Clark's match last night, Clark started in bottom. Ended up getting Gross's leg and was under him, like he had shot a double. Gross had both hands on Clark's ankle. Why did the Ref not start the 5 count?

 

[BigFreddy]

Derek St John made a living off of this "technique".

Watch the second period of this DSJ match. Drop to the ankle off the whistle, run him out of bounds off every restart. This was the first match that comes up after searching "Derek St. John" on YouTube. Click on any of his other matches, it's all the same. Didn't hear any Hawkeye fans calling for a rule change then, but did hear a lot about what a "great rider" DSJ was.

 

[just_somebody]

THIS^^

Anything that requires more discernment and courage from the refs is bad for the sport. Eliminate the referee to the greatest extent possible and wrestling will improve.

Just make everything a cage match and eliminate OOB all together!

As for the riding time, I didn't come up with it, but I like the idea of modifying RT so after a 30 second (or 1 min, or whatever the right number is) continuous ride, either guy has the option to restart neutral (with no escape points). This definitely can encourage action.

Maybe even keep the cumulative RT, and who ever has more ride outs (the 30/60/whatever second blocks) gets a point at the end.

 

[FrontHeadlock2]

Stalling is a very subjective kind of call, but I think the officials have began to be more passive, in the approach to calling it. I have zero data to prove my point, just sort of my gut feeling on it right now.

If you are referring to Mark Hall, I will remind you that Jordan did not shoot, and was hoping to rely on pushing Hall, for the call, and I will also remind you that Mark Hall shot with 10 seconds left, and it was not an "after the fact" shot, it was a risky gamble that, if countered, would have lost the match for him.

Mark Hall was not stalling, and it was a good no call, and I'm not saying that because I'm a Penn State man. Mark Hall out wrestled Bo Jordan and the better man won last night.

But, coincidentally, you just so happen to be a Penn State fan!

 

[24 so far]

Watch the second period of this DSJ match. Drop to the ankle off the whistle, run him out of bounds off every restart. This was the first match that comes up after searching "Derek St. John" on YouTube. Click on any of his other matches, it's all the same. Didn't hear any Hawkeye fans calling for a rule change then, but did hear a lot about what a "great rider" DSJ was.

View embedded media

Any DSJ match doesn't hold a candle to what Dake did to DSJ in their Finals Match. It's a record, I guarantee it.

As for your video, could you post a shorter version, something along the lines of The Godfather.................

 

[diggerpup]

Watch the second period of this DSJ match. Drop to the ankle off the whistle, run him out of bounds off every restart. This was the first match that comes up after searching "Derek St. John" on YouTube. Click on any of his other matches, it's all the same. Didn't hear any Hawkeye fans calling for a rule change then, but did hear a lot about what a "great rider" DSJ was.

View embedded media

Hahaha !!!! Exactly.

Hey DSJ .... Pot meet Kettle??

 

[CFNiteHawk85]

Its not ever called, but the rule on the books that it is stalling on the bottom man if he stands up when the top man already has a leg in is quite possibly the stupidest thing I can imagine.