I'm afraid we're going to lose Joe bc of situations like tonight. He needs to play over BE.
Why Evelyn over Toussaint
- Thread starter Louis3Hawk
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hes starting on a top 20 big ten team as a freshman who had no other high major offers.
It did seem JT was on the bench every time winston would start heating up. Didn't get it now, still don't......
I don't have the plus / minus for the game, but I would bet anything we were +8 or more when Joe T was in the game.
I know he makes some mistakes, but he adds something when in the game and it does not always show up in the box score.
BE has four years more experience then Toussaint. Most of us haven't a clue what goes on in practices, not saying that Toussaint is not going to be better then Evelyn but if you look at coaches perspective he's going with the experience over youthful exuberance. Like JT upside for sure but Bakara has as much of a chance to be productive on the court as does Joe T. Both are somewhat liabilities when not playing within themselves.
Who doesn’t get time down the stretch over someone he’s better than. Do you honestly think he wouldn’t have options? We can revisit in the spring—I certainly hope I’m wrong.
what? He has proven himself to be very erratic, that’s why he doesn’t play
He is erratic at times, he’s a freshman. He also has a better skill set than Evelyn.
Fran's big mistake was not putting Kriener back in immediately at the under 4 time out. I get sit him for a minute or 2 after his 4th but no excuse for having Pemsl stay in until 2 minutes considering how well Kriener was playing.
As for Evelyn and Touissaint I know Fran likes the "Senior leadership" over the freshman and probably why he has him in but in my opinion you got to go with the hot hand. Because talent and production wise it's not like one totally out performs the other and Joe T was playing better especially on the defensive end which is why we lost. Because like the PSU game earlier this year we couldn't get stops on the defensive end in the last 5-6 minutes of the game and that's what cost us in the end.
bull. Winston lit it up the first five minutes off second half and Joe T was in game when that happened. Joe T is going to be very good player but he still makes. Freshmen mistakes
who cares? Fran is trying to win the game in front of him.
Toussaint is in a perfect position. Two years in contributor role before getting more responsibility
He made a couple of threes but Joe T was still destroying their ball screen offense. He only had 7 points to that point with Toussaint guarding him primarily. Then 13 more the final 15 min stretch with Evelyn. Toussaint had a +1 plus/minus, Evelyn was -14.
I always love the "freshman mistakes" line too. What is it called when Evelyn passes on a wide open three and proceeds to turn it over? Do those not count because he's not a freshman?
I care! I want to see the Hawks win, and Toussaint gave them a better chance of that last night.
Who cares? Fran is trying to win the game in front of him using guys that, even you admit, are worse players? Now that's a hot take. I know in your eyes Fran is completely infallible, but he's wrong on this one.
fran values mistake free ball in crunch time. I couple anecdotal examples don’t outweigh a trend, unless you think Fran is trying to lose.
Well then he really shouldn't have Evelyn in there. He had a bad turnover in crunch time last night. He also did against Rutgers when Fran subbed Joe T out at the end for some reason. Same with Cincy game.
I’m sorry, are you suggesting that Joe has been better or more consistent than BK this year? Joe has completely played us out of multiple games all by himself.
You said Fran values mistake free ball in crunch time. I was simply pointing out that Evelyn was sloppier with the ball last night, in addition to him being a worse player over all. Yet, Fran keeps Joe on the bench.
Yes, clearly. Examples of games Joe has played us out of?
Per 40:
Joe T - 14.4 pts/6 ast/4.6 reb/2.7 st/4.5 to
Evelyn - 7.7 pts/4.2 ast/3.4 reb/0.8 st/3.2 to
Win Shares per 40
Joe T - .071
Evelyn - .027
Box plus/minus
Joe T - 2.4
Evelyn - 0.5
PER
Joe T - 13.4
Evelyn - 5.8
You can also just watch them play...
Be careful with objective commentary - usually doesn't end well! Joe T will be a force. Right now it is in spots and he gets careless with the ball. Against well schooled defenses you just can't be sloppy. Evelyn manages the ball well and gets it into the post at appropriate times. No he's not as flashy, but he is more dependable at this time.
Except for when he isn't...
There are some nice objective comparison stats above your post if you'd like to take a look.
So were you not watching when Evelyn had a wide open three pointer, didn't take it, & dribbled into a turnover? The game was tied at that point, Michigan State went on a 5-0 run after that.
Evelyn also had two back to back fouls during that run that resulted in 4 free throws made. But he's a senior so you can't take him out...
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Evelyn seems to be more steady with the ball than JoeT but there were several instances where JoeW cut to the basket and Evelyn didn't see him. Seems like the guards only look for JoeW around the perimeter and never when he tries to post up or cut to the basket. Evelyn had a decent game though and lets be honest, how many times has JoeT picked up a foul in the first 2 mins of a game? Quite a few times it seems.
Ya - things like that happen. Joe T. dominates against poor competition. He struggles against top end defenses. It is what it is and if you'd open your eyes you would see that. It's just amazing how much more arm chair coaches know more than the actual professionals. I'm not saying Joe isn't going to be an excellent player, but he's a freshman and freshman make mistakes.
I'm not an armchair coach, just calling out your comment that Toussaint is "careless with the ball & you can't do that against sloppy defenses" while seemingly ignoring Evelyn's big time turnover.
How many times do you need to see him try to take it to the basket and get stripped to understand what careless with the ball is?
Yes - and that's what gets him into bad spots right now. Just because you can beat someone doesn't mean you should always try.
He does have good court vision and has made some solid passes but as others have noted, he thinks he’s better then he is and tried to get too cute and inevitable once or twice a game makes an ill-advised pass.
That being said, people are really trying to nitpick and find reasons to be mad at Fran. He’s not perfect and not every decision is going go right. Let’s be honest, he’s working with a really short deck and doing a pretty damn good job for the most part. The team has essentially 3 starters out right now and working with a bench with only two players and that not too long ago, most people on this site said they shouldn’t be playing high-majors D1 ball in Evelyn and Pemsl. But those guys for the most part have stepped up there game and given good minutes.
Iowa has had more talented and healthy teams go into Easy Lansing and get pummeled. This team competes as well as any team Fran has had and they are going it with a patchwork line-up and Fran has done a lot of things right. It’s obvious he trusts the Senior (Evelyn) more then the Freshman (Toussaint) in big situations. Evelyn hit a big shot and 2 big free throws to end the run for MSU around the 10 minute mark.
All the talk about taking Wieskamp out, that’s bogus. If he was on the bench everyone would be bitching that one if the big dogs and arguably the most talented player/shooter on the team is on the bench in crunch time. He’s struggling right now. It happens and he will break out of it at some point.
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Honestly what this team has done outside a couple of complete clunkers (at Nebraska and Purdue primarily) is pretty remarkable given the available talent.
Even with a rag-tag bunch we take MSU to the wire in their building (granted they aren't very good this year). When Weiskamp completely disappears we have little chance of winning these games (remarkable that we still had a chance late). He can't be the worst player on the floor for a team playing a bunch of marginal role players.
