Why Evelyn over Toussaint

[RocknRollface]

At less of a pace than the guy playing in front of him.

I'm not saying that he shouldn't have been in, but he has far more of a tendency to make bad decisions on both ends of the court than Evelyn who has been playing pretty well and has been better at creating offense than Joe T.

No question Joe is the better defender.

But its Fran, Frans always going to pick offense.

I will say Evelyn's bad turnover at the end was partly on Weiskamp for passing up an open 3 with the clock running out.

Joe has to shoot that.

 

[Hawkeyegrad2006]

JT picked up his 3rd foul about 9 minutes left in the game. He didn't come back in until around 2 minutes left, I think Fran sat him too long but to be fair Bakari hit a 3 right about the time I thought he should have been yanked so I think Fran tried to see if he would get hot.

My only 2 consistent complaints about Fran's actual coaching- over the years (obviously sans after game emotions blocking logic and reason and i wish he could recruit more) are his defenses (and that has been better this year) and his absolute unwillingness to let guys play through foul trouble. It feels like he thinks 4 fouls is the foul-out level

 

[BBHawk]

So were you not watching when Evelyn had a wide open three pointer, didn't take it, & dribbled into a turnover? The game was tied at that point, Michigan State went on a 5-0 run after that.

I was watching. I also saw him make other plays and, more importantly, not try to do stupid things for the most part. No complaints about Evelyn, Iowa just got beat by a deeper team with a coach who hounds the refs constantly and gets away with it.

 

[unoHawkeye]

I was watching. I also saw him make other plays and, more importantly, not try to do stupid things for the most part. No complaints about Evelyn, Iowa just got beat by a deeper team with a coach who hounds the refs constantly and gets away with it.

Nobody should be complaining about Evelyn’s effort last night. He hit some nice shots, and played decent enough defense. In a given game, the Hawks got exactly what they needed from him off the bench. However, when he was in, our offense became stagnant. There was nobody who could dribble drive, nobody who could make Winston’s life hell, and it all resulted in offensive stagnation down the stretch of the game, as MSU took control late.

Box plus/minus rarely tells the whole story. But I think that there is something to be said that Evelyn’s was -14, and Pemsl’s -11 (worst of any two players on either team). Conversely, both Toussaint and Kriener were in the positive, 1 and 2 respectively... the only ones with a positive +/- on the Hawks.

I really do understand the rationale behind leaving Evelyn in the game. He has the maturity and composure to knock down big shots/free throws, and typically makes few errors. At the same time, it’s nearly impossible to dispute that Iowa played better last night when Joe was in the game and covering Winston. I wish that Fran would have gone back to him late as the game was slipping away...

 

[denmar81]

Yes - and that's what gets him into bad spots right now. Just because you can beat someone doesn't mean you should always try.

Why not? If I have a player that can consistently beat the defense I sure as hell don't have him stop.

 

[The Deplorable Sleeping Dog]

Joe makes some dumb mistakes. Fewer and he's certainly improving but I can see a coach wanting the grad student in at the end of the game.

Still, Joe T keeps improving. He's going to be a great point guard for Iowa.

 

[ChiPackHawk]

Why not? If I have a player that can consistently beat the defense I sure as hell don't have him stop.

Because against well trained and and solid fundamental defenses he can’t do it consistently. You guys act like he’s Ronnie Lester!

 

[pocha444444]

Because against well trained and and solid fundamental defenses he can’t do it consistently. You guys act like he’s Ronnie Lester!

Nope, just better than Evelyn.

 

[like-woahh]

Evelyn makes just as many "dumb mistakes" as Touissant does, but somehow gets a pass on here because he's older? Shouldn't it be the opposite? I swear I watch a different game then some people.

 

[RocknRollface]

Why not? If I have a player that can consistently beat the defense I sure as hell don't have him stop.

Yes, absolutely. But Tousaint is not that guy right now.

He rarely gets around his defender because the defender is always giving him a huge cushion and going under every screen.

 

[RocknRollface]

Nope, just better than Evelyn.

Evelyn has been better than JT at getting to the rim lately.

The defense is a valid point but Joe is not much of an asset on offense right now.

 

[pocha444444]

Evelyn has been better than JT at getting to the rim lately.

The defense is a valid point but Joe is not much of an asset on offense right now.

Evelyn rarely does anything on offense other than pass it around the three point line. Toussaint at least breaks down the defense and gets his teammates open. Also, as you point out, his defensive impact is much greater.

 

[pocha444444]

Evelyn makes just as many "dumb mistakes" as Touissant does, but somehow gets a pass on here because he's older? Shouldn't it be the opposite? I swear I watch a different game then some people.

Most people are unable to see past their biases.

 

[RocknRollface]

Evelyn rarely does anything on offense other than pass it around the three point line. Toussaint at least breaks down the defense and gets his teammates open. Also, as you point out, his defensive impact is much greater.

Neither one has gotten to the hole very often but Evelyn has been more effective at getting to the hole than Tousaint recently.

And no, Joe does not break down the defense. He almost never gets in the lane. His defender plays way to far off him to allow that to happen.

You can't break down the defense when you're defender is standing 6 feet away from you in the lane.

 

[lesterfan]

I don't know how you can watch that game and not see how Winston had more trouble running the offense when guarded by Joe T. It was just so apparent that he had more difficulty with Joe while watching.

I think sometimes with Iowa basketball defense is considered far less important than offense, but when playing a team like Michigan State its probably more important.

 

[pocha444444]

Neither one has gotten to the hole very often but Evelyn has been more effective at getting to the hole than Tousaint recently.

And no, Joe does not break down the defense. He almost never gets in the lane. His defender plays way to far off him to allow that to happen.

You can't break down the defense when you're defender is standing 6 feet away from you in the lane.

If this is really the point you're trying to make for Evelyn over Toussaint, then it really shows how weak the argument is. There's a reason that Toussaint gets more assists than Evelyn while playing less minutes. He has the highest assist % on the team while having a much lower turnover % than Evelyn. Even if I were to concede and give you a push on the offensive side (which is still crazy), the defensive side completely swings it in Toussaint's favor.

 

[fivecardstud14]

Neither one has gotten to the hole very often but Evelyn has been more effective at getting to the hole than Tousaint recently.

And no, Joe does not break down the defense. He almost never gets in the lane. His defender plays way to far off him to allow that to happen.

You can't break down the defense when you're defender is standing 6 feet away from you in the lane.

Tell that to Ben Simmons.

 

[owenhawk]

Evelyn rarely does anything on offense other than pass it around the three point line. Toussaint at least breaks down the defense and gets his teammates open. Also, as you point out, his defensive impact is much greater.

incorrect. You are referencing an Evelyn from earlier in the year. The Evelyn the past 3-4 games has not been that and has been shooting and attacking much more.

 

[pocha444444]

incorrect. You are referencing an Evelyn from earlier in the year. The Evelyn the past 3-4 games has not been that and has been shooting and attacking much more.

You got me, he now does something on offense two times a game versus his previous zero times a game.

 

[owenhawk]

Most people are unable to see past their biases.

I’m curious what the bias is in this instance that you are referring to and if you feel that you are immune to bias?

 

[pocha444444]

I’m curious what the bias is in this instance that you are referring to and if you feel that you are immune to bias?

Senior/Freshman bias

It's the only explanation I can think of for why people would rather see Evelyn over Toussaint.

 

[fivecardstud14]

It's interesting how much owenhawk loves Bakari Evelyn and hated Isaiah Moss.

 

[owenhawk]

You got me, he now does something on offense two times a game versus his previous zero times a game.

The last 4 games - as I referenced - he is averaging 10 Pts (his season avg is 3.4), 2 Rebs, and 2 Assists. Also, he is shooting 13-24 (54% well above his season avg of 33%) and 5-13 from 3PT range (38% also much better than his season avg of 29%). Plus, he’s made some clutch FT’s during that span.

I’m not claiming he’s a world beater - and I love Touissant’s game and potential - but your claims of him doing basically nothing are wrong. He’s settled in and has become a much more significant and valuable contributor as the season has gone on.

You accuse others of bias because they feel there might be some things Evelyn brings to the table over Touissant (and granted there are things Touissant provides that Evelyn does not, especially defensively) but your bias is definitely showing in your tearing down of Evelyn.

 

[ZumaHawk]

I actually like both players and believe they both get a chance. With that said I'll take Joe T. all day over BE. From what I see when Joe T. has a turnover it appears to be an ugly one that turns into 2 points almost instantly. Against Michigan State I felt Joe T was playing quite well.

 

[pocha444444]

The last 4 games - as I referenced - he is averaging 10 Pts (his season avg is 3.4), 2 Rebs, and 2 Assists. Also, he is shooting 13-24 (54% well above his season avg of 33%) and 5-13 from 3PT range (38% also much better than his season avg of 29%). Plus, he’s made some clutch FT’s during that span.

I’m not claiming he’s a world beater - and I love Touissant’s game and potential - but your claims of him doing basically nothing are wrong. He’s settled in and has become a much more significant and valuable contributor as the season has gone on.

You accuse others of bias because they feel there might be some things Evelyn brings to the table over Touissant (and granted there are things Touissant provides that Evelyn does not, especially defensively) but your bias is definitely showing in your tearing down of Evelyn.

Believe me, I don't hate Evelyn. He's been critical off the bench this year. It's just obvious that Toussaint is better, and when he's impacting a game like he was @ Mich St he shouldn't be sat on the bench for the final 15 mins of the game. My statement above was obviously a little hyperbole, but my point still stands. He doesn't add much on offense. He's also had 11 turnovers during this "hot stretch" the last 4 games. I thought that was a cardinal sin around here...

 

[owenhawk]

It's interesting how much owenhawk loves Bakari Evelyn and hated Isaiah Moss.

Why is it interesting? Moss was given a starting spot for 2 years as a Big Ten SG and ample opportunity to showcase improvement and come up big, only to disappear often and show half effort at times and be the constant weak link in the starting line-up. Then when it became obvious to him that he might lose his starting spot to Frederick - he bailed on his team rather then stick around even though he would of likely still got minutes and helped them make an NCAA Tourney run.

Meanwhile, Evelyn is a back-up Guard who would likely have played very limited minutes if not for injuries and all he he has done is come in when forced into a bigger role and played his ass off and upped his game, helping a short-handed but gritty and tough-minded team keep grinding out a solid season.

So yeah, based on that context, I do like Evelyn a lot more than Moss. The question is why do you disrespect a guy who has stepped up his game and helped out Iowa when they needed it most and yet always stick up for the guy who was given tons of chances over the years but often shrunk in the limelight and came up short when needed, even though Moss is probably a more talented/gifted player than Evelyn.

 

[hawkeyemark56]

I don't know how you can watch that game and not see how Winston had more trouble running the offense when guarded by Joe T. It was just so apparent that he had more difficulty with Joe while watching.

I think sometimes with Iowa basketball defense is considered far less important than offense, but when playing a team like Michigan State its probably more important.

Good post and very relevant point made here. To me it seems a situational thing. In the Minnesota game Fran rightly I thought left Evelyn in. Bakari had played well in extended action and a tight ball game with inconsistent officiating he seemed the steadier hand.

The Michigan State game I thought we needed Toussaint's defense on Winston. Izzo made the right call in asking him to take over the game and that along with the defense on Garza won it for them. Fran has improved quite a bit this season but Izzo clearly outcoached him I thought which stings given the way he conducted himself.

 

[perryhawk]

Why wait to check in Toussaint until a minute left in the game?

Yes, Bakari hit a 3 to keep us in it, but I can't help but cringe when he has the ball after the opposing team goes on a run, plays bad defense, or commits turnovers down the stretch. Winston had 1 point in the first half, I think JoeT was a big reason for that.

We've seen JT make big plays in big games in big moments, so why not now? Let the kid grow and learn, because I'd rather have his tough attitude and energy out there than Bakari. That was a big miss

I haven't read most of the posts following your's...I basically feel the way you do and had the same thought in the second half when Winston was getting it going.

That said, BE had hit a three....he is more experienced and Fran gives players real credit for that (as he should).

So, I do agree with the OP...but others going off like IT'S CRAZY that Fran would do this and second guessing him are a bit over the top.

 

[fivecardstud14]

Why is it interesting? Moss was given a starting spot for 2 years as a Big Ten SG and ample opportunity to showcase improvement and come up big, only to disappear often and show half effort at times and be the constant weak link in the starting line-up. Then when it became obvious to him that he might lose his starting spot to Frederick - he bailed on his team rather then stick around even though he would of likely still got minutes and helped them make an NCAA Tourney run.

Meanwhile, Evelyn is a back-up Guard who would likely have played very limited minutes if not for injuries and all he he has done is come in when forced into a bigger role and played his ass off and upped his game, helping a short-handed but gritty and tough-minded team keep grinding out a solid season.

So yeah, based on that context, I do like Evelyn a lot more than Moss. The question is why do you disrespect a guy who has stepped up his game and helped out Iowa when they needed it most and yet always stick up for the guy who was given tons of chances over the years but often shrunk in the limelight and came up short when needed, even though Moss is probably a more talented/gifted player than Evelyn.

Drop the 'disrespect' act, that gets old. Just pointing out your stubbornness & how you think you're the enlightened one.

You continue to whine when people are pointing out flaws with Evelyn & Fran, ("they're good Hawks, they work hard, how dare you," etc.) then you go & do the same about Cook, Moss & Toussaint. You're more hypocritical than you're aware.

 

[GT Hawkaholic]

Evelyn isn't the issue, he's played great the past 3 games. Thought his D at Minnesota late won us the game. The issue is that we have no shooters left. With Joe being completely lost and with horrid body language, it leaves us even more short. I think the issue is that Toussaint should have been in AND Evelyn AND Kriener. Having a lineup of Pemsl, Connor, scared Wieskamp and a tripled Garza was a recipe for disaster offensively. Joe needs to wake his ass up and play. Hopefully it comes with CJs return.

 

[ChuckBarkley]

I don’t think Evelyn is horrible. JT gets his hands in passing lanes, is quicker and a better overall defender. The offense stagnated the other night with BE as the point guard and feel like JTs quickness allows him to break down his defender creating opportunities for others

 

[RocknRollface]

If this is really the point you're trying to make for Evelyn over Toussaint, then it really shows how weak the argument is. There's a reason that Toussaint gets more assists than Evelyn while playing less minutes. He has the highest assist % on the team while having a much lower turnover % than Evelyn. Even if I were to concede and give you a push on the offensive side (which is still crazy), the defensive side completely swings it in Toussaint's favor.

Its definitely not crazy if you've been paying attention the last 3 games. If you just look at season stats then sure.

The defensive argument I've already pointed out is valid so your simply repeating what I've already said.

If it were up to me I'd probably have had JT back in too, but for Weiskamp who went into a shell.

 

[RocknRollface]

Tell that to Ben Simmons.

Different games with different spacing. In college the lane is far more congested.

Simmons has still not been all that effective in the playoffs when teams lock in.

 

[anon_gjzkhykcp9iuj]

In a vacuum, I understand how Fran has handled Joe. He's young and he makes a mistake or two, so you pull them out of the game so we can think about it a little bit. No problems with that. However, if you look at it from a macro perspective, he only treats Joe T that way. Other players are allowed to screw up and miss eight shots in a row with no consequences whatsoever. It's pretty baffling that he has a higher standard for a freshman point guard than he does for many of the other players on the team.

 

[RocknRollface]

In a vacuum, I understand how Fran has handled Joe. He's young and he makes a mistake or two, so you pull them out of the game so we can think about it a little bit. No problems with that. However, if you look at it from a macro perspective, he only treats Joe T that way. Other players are allowed to screw up and miss eight shots in a row with no consequences whatsoever. It's pretty baffling that he has a higher standard for a freshman point guard than he does for many of the other players on the team.

Joe doesn't sit for missing shots and his lack of shooting threat makes it harder to get the ball to Garza too.

You need your pg to be your best decision maker at the end of games. Joe doesn't always make the best decisions.

I'm not saying I agree with him being on the bench as often as he is, just that it's not about missing shots.

 

[owenhawk]

Yes

Believe me, I don't hate Evelyn. He's been critical off the bench this year. It's just obvious that Toussaint is better, and when he's impacting a game like he was @ Mich St he shouldn't be sat on the bench for the final 15 mins of the game. My statement above was obviously a little hyperbole, but my point still stands. He doesn't add much on offense. He's also had 11 turnovers during this "hot stretch" the last 4 games. I thought that was a cardinal sin around here...

Yes and Touissant has had 11 TO’s during that stretch as well. I don’t have a problem debating who should be in at the end, I just think saying Evelyn offers nothing is a little strong. He is now shooting with more confidence and not hesitating, he has got to the hole a few times and hit some big FT’s, and he seems to steady the team at times when needed. Earlier in the year I totally agree but he has stepped up his game recently and he has done it at a time the team really needed it and I appreciate that as a fan.

Right now they are both flawed players who if not for injuries, neither one likely would be playing much in the stretch run of games. I believe that Touissant has great potential and he brings a dynamic that the rest of the team doesn’t have. I don’t doubt that Touissant is more talented than Evelyn and will have a better career then him. But it’s clear Fran probably feels more comfortable with Evelyn at the end of games. And I don’t think that is ridiculous considering how he has stepped up recently.

 

[NI hawk]

Jot T. shooting looks better now that at beginning of season. Joe T. has hit 4 of his last 5 three attempts. The one he missed was in and out.

 

[ZumaHawk]

Jot T. shooting looks better now that at beginning of season. Joe T. has hit 4 of his last 5 three attempts. The one he missed was in and out.

Yes, I believe JoeT had 5 early points in the Michigan St. game. Hit both his shots early. As I stated earlier I like both of them and they bring it every game and getting better late in the season. I think we can still enjoy the ride fellas.

 

[Loveblackandgold]

Once Fredrick is back I would like to see more of a two big lineup with Connor running more of the point. Both BK and JT turn the ball over too much for what they bring on the scoring end.

That being said JT can drive the basket, fights hard through screens, plays solid defense.JT also needs minutes to develop.

BK ....makes bad fouls, lazy unforced turnovers, cannot drive to the basket, minimal confidence in his shot (until recently), weak defensively. And you never see this kid getting dirty for a 50/50 ball.

JMO

 

[Ihawkhoops]

My only 2 consistent complaints about Fran's actual coaching- over the years (obviously sans after game emotions blocking logic and reason and i wish he could recruit more) are his defenses (and that has been better this year) and his absolute unwillingness to let guys play through foul trouble. It feels like he thinks 4 fouls is the foul-out level

Agree on the foul management. To me it is situational. Two fouls in the first half to a key player and you have to sit them. Close game in the second half up or down a handful and either trying to rally or stave off a rally and you need to go out with guns blazing. Far too many times Fran waits a few possessions too long to get somebody back in and the lead is gone or a 3-5 point deficit turns into a 7-10 point deficit. A couple empty possessions under the 5 minute mark will lose the game and Fran has his PhD in this department. Down 7 with 2 minutes left isn't the time to put somebody back in.