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Focus on what you do well...don't try and outdo what others do... Don't try and be WWE...be a wrestling company...not an entertainment company...It might not work in the short run...but it can work long term if you remain focused on it and quit trying to chase the big/lame dog...
 
Focus on what you do well...don't try and outdo what others do... Don't try and be WWE...be a wrestling company...not an entertainment company...It might not work in the short run...but it can work long term if you remain focused on it and quit trying to chase the big/lame dog...
I'd be interested in seeing the payroll of Vince vs Tony...no clue as I know Vince has legends deals and guys like Cena and Taker, but Tony is acquiring a pretty hefty roster.
 
Tony has talent, but that doesn't equate to content...I know he is booker of the year, but yeah...how have the youtube shows grown? When you have a set 800,000-1,000,000 audience that never grows, something is gonna falter.

You may not like Bischoff, but he is correct in this case....when he signed Hogan, Savage, Hall, Nash etc, he grew his audience....couldn't sustain it long-term, but had a moment in the sunshine.

Tony has signed Jericho, Punk, Bryan and dozens of others, he doesn't even grow his audience, let alone sustain the growth. Adds another promotion and cast of talent, no place to display them?

I hear he is a genius , but his audience is pretty limited for the amount of cash he is dishing out.

I don't begrudge AEW fans, and I am a fan of everyone having more options to work, but not sure TK has a sustainable business plan?
I've seen enough promotions come and go. AWA, SMW, ECW, Ohio Valley, TNA, WCW, JCP, orginal NXT. Don't worry about the money mark. Enjoy the ride while it lasts.
 
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I'd be interested in seeing the payroll of Vince vs Tony...no clue as I know Vince has legends deals and guys like Cena and Taker, but Tony is acquiring a pretty hefty roster.
The only flexibility Tony has is most of them aren't exclusive.
 
I've seen enough promotions come and go. AWA, SMW, ECW, Ohio Valley, TNA, WCW, JCP, orginal NXT. Don't worry about the money mark. Enjoy the ride while it lasts.
AWA, JCP didn't come and go, they were established decade long promotions, not sure if you are trying to compare AEW to them...

AEW is rich kid that has a passion for pro-wrestling and money to burn, befriended by a handful of wrestlers that knew they would get better deals by staying with him vs. the competitive market, no actual guidance or actual leadership beyond the bucks and omega, and is just slinging cash out there right and left to the same limited audience...is Dutch Mantell working right now, he could improve the AEW situation pronto.

He has soo much potential and so much ego at the same time.
 
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AWA, JCP didn't come and go, they were established decade long promotions, not sure if you are trying to compare AEW to them...

AEW is rich kid that has a passion for pro-wrestling and money to burn, befriended by a handful of wrestlers that knew they would get better deals by staying with him vs. the competitive market, no actual guidance or actual leadership beyond the bucks and omega, and is just slinging cash out there right and left to the same limited audience...is Dutch Mantell working right now, he could improve the AEW situation pronto.

He has soo much potential and so much ego at the same time.
JCP and AWA were established regionals. That held out as long as they could in the nationalization of the business. Well AWA did. In that case it was a stubborn millionaire who loved the business too much to accept reality. JCP, simply tried to grow without the cashflow to justify the expansion.
 
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JCP and AWA were established regionals. That held out as long as they could in the nationalization of the business. Well AWA did. In that case it was a stubborn millionaire who loved the business too much to accept reality. JCP, simply tried to grow without the cashflow to justify the expansion.
AEW is a unique fireball, that could revolutionize everything, but don't really think they will unless they accidentally stumble upon it. Tony doesn't have the chops to sustain this, he needs non-buck help in booking for long-term.

They are succeeding as Bill Watts UWF was, limited audience great success with Dundee'esque hot-shotting, but yeah, everyone can hate the WWF, but people keep watching them as they make millions.

Watts couldn't make the jump, and he had a superior booking/ and a better roster compared to what TK has before he sold to Turner.
 
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AEW is a unique fireball, that could revolutionize everything, but don't really think they will unless they accidentally stumble upon it. Tony doesn't have the chops to sustain this, he needs non-buck help in booking for long-term.

They are succeeding as Bill Watts UWF was, limited audience great success with Dundee'esque hot-shotting, but yeah, everyone can hate the WWF, but people keep watching them as they make millions.

Watts couldn't make the jump, and he had a superior booking/ and a better roster compared to what TK has before he sold to Turner.
If I was TK. I'd bring in the best mind in the business. Unfortunately, Heyman at this stage of his career has a relatively stress free gig.
 
If I was TK. I'd bring in the best mind in the business. Unfortunately, Heyman at this stage of his career has a relatively stress free gig.
Agree on Heyman (I'd love to see Heyman be in a position to take over creative when Vince moves on, but he sounds content just being talent).

Or an even more unlikely candidate Cornette. I'd not renew 3-4 talent contracts and pay Cornette to consult from home and layout the major milestones in the programs. Cornette said he is done being on the road and rarely leaves his house any more, but the guy has a great wrestling mind, and could infuse some realism into a pretty hokey product at times. He'd likely bury the bucks, cassidy etc. but could get a better return on the Punk and Danielson investments.

Edit...sounds like Tony did reach out to Cornette in the beginning, but once Cornette found out he was building around Omega and the Bucks, Cornette ran in the other direction.
 
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Agree on Heyman (I'd love to see Heyman be in a position to take over creative when Vince moves on, but he sounds content just being talent).

Or an even more unlikely candidate Cornette. I'd not renew 3-4 talent contracts and pay Cornette to consult from home and layout the major milestones in the programs. Cornette said he is done being on the road and rarely leaves his house any more, but the guy has a great wrestling mind, and could infuse some realism into a pretty hokey product at times. He'd likely bury the bucks, cassidy etc. but could get a better return on the Punk and Danielson investments.

Edit...sounds like Tony did reach out to Cornette in the beginning, but once Cornette found out he was building around Omega and the Bucks, Cornette ran in the other direction.

I agree with a lot of the criticisms Cornette has, and he's forgotten more about wrestling than almost anyone will ever know. But his version of wrestling is also outdated and isn't likely to return. People like and expect to see ludicrous finishers and a lot of flippy floppy. I mean, Darby Allen has a place in wrestling now.

But I don't know if they've got a mind in the organization like Cornette's that knows every little detail about how to book a match. I don't follow him much, but I did queue up his podcast for a long trip once, and the level of nuance he has about all the little details of a match, why they should be in this corner and not that corner for a particular spot, etc, is unbelievable. I mean I know they've got guys like Danielson and Regal and Serena Deeb that know a gazillion holds, but that's not exactly the same.

I picked up watching wrestling again with AEW. And there's a lot of good there. The in ring product is often great. But they've got an awful lot of talent right now, and they've had a bit of a hard time keeping it all going in the right direction storyline wise. I think they do some really good long term booking, like months of build around Hangman's title win and Wardlow's turn, etc. Their mid-term booking is dicey.

I think they've got a big problem with 95% of the roster being face/heel tweeners. I mean, I know the old good guys/bad guys thing is antiquated, but to me its still important. They let WAY too many heels play for the crowd affection, whether it be Britt Baker or Adam Cole, or whatever the Bucks do. And too many of their faces are "rebels" like Moxley and Kingston that "being bad" is part of their face character.

Some of it is out of their control as the AEW audience is "smarts" and tend to support anyone who can work, and turn on people quickly and for no storyline reason, but its making a bit of a mess to have so many programs without clear fan allegiance. The only reason I think that MJF has been able to stay an effective heel is that he doesn't wrestle that much. And when he does, he wrestles in character and isn't trying to pop the crowd. They need to figure out a way to get more heel heat in the organization.
 
I agree with a lot of the criticisms Cornette has, and he's forgotten more about wrestling than almost anyone will ever know. But his version of wrestling is also outdated and isn't likely to return. People like and expect to see ludicrous finishers and a lot of flippy floppy. I mean, Darby Allen has a place in wrestling now.

But I don't know if they've got a mind in the organization like Cornette's that knows every little detail about how to book a match. I don't follow him much, but I did queue up his podcast for a long trip once, and the level of nuance he has about all the little details of a match, why they should be in this corner and not that corner for a particular spot, etc, is unbelievable. I mean I know they've got guys like Danielson and Regal and Serena Deeb that know a gazillion holds, but that's not exactly the same.

I picked up watching wrestling again with AEW. And there's a lot of good there. The in ring product is often great. But they've got an awful lot of talent right now, and they've had a bit of a hard time keeping it all going in the right direction storyline wise. I think they do some really good long term booking, like months of build around Hangman's title win and Wardlow's turn, etc. Their mid-term booking is dicey.

I think they've got a big problem with 95% of the roster being face/heel tweeners. I mean, I know the old good guys/bad guys thing is antiquated, but to me its still important. They let WAY too many heels play for the crowd affection, whether it be Britt Baker or Adam Cole, or whatever the Bucks do. And too many of their faces are "rebels" like Moxley and Kingston that "being bad" is part of their face character.

Some of it is out of their control as the AEW audience is "smarts" and tend to support anyone who can work, and turn on people quickly and for no storyline reason, but its making a bit of a mess to have so many programs without clear fan allegiance. The only reason I think that MJF has been able to stay an effective heel is that he doesn't wrestle that much. And when he does, he wrestles in character and isn't trying to pop the crowd. They need to figure out a way to get more heel heat in the organization.
That and Cornette isn't someone I'd want my promotion attached to. He's a bit too bonkers even by Pro wrestling standards.
 
Keep in mind, this thread is older than AEW...

Cornette may be brilliant, and I would be on his side in a death match vs Vince Russo, but there's a reason he's been fired from every company he's worked for...and he's not above booking some out there stuff...



 
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Keep in mind, this thread is older than AEW...

Cornette may be brilliant, and I would be on his side in a death match vs Vince Russo, but there's a reason he's been fired from every company he's worked for...and he's not above booking some out there stuff...



Pro wrestling is similar to stand up in several ways. So much of it is trial and error. We miss things from the old territory system. Performers honed their acts on the road hundreds of times. Before stepping anywhere near a screen. A lot of it is sink or swim now.
 
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Pro wrestling is similar to stand up in several ways. So much of it is trial and error. We miss things from the old territory system. Performers honed their acts on the road hundreds of times. Before stepping anywhere near a screen. A lot of it is sink or swim now.
So true, especially since there were no "house shows" for basically two years...most of the young guys on the AEW roster came from the Indy circuit, and at an Indy show, there is no long term story telling...you pop the crowd for that match and that show...not worried about hard cameras and where the camera on the floor is...that's what I like about AEW Dark and Elevation, it gives the roster a chance to work before a crowd and "camera" for reps...
 
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So true, especially since there were no "house shows" for basically two years...most of the young guys on the AEW roster came from the Indy circuit, and at an Indy show, there is no long term story telling...you pop the crowd for that match and that show...not worried about hard cameras and where the camera on the floor is...that's what I like about AEW Dark and Elevation, it gives the roster a chance to work before a crowd and "camera" for reps...
Look at Jade Cargill. Yes she has a look but nowhere ready for this role. Could say the same for Bron Brekker.
 
AEW is at the Forum in Los Angeles this Wednesday? It would be a cool storyline to have a couple of ring techs come up to Tony backstage and say "We got the ring back from the warehouse in Boyle Heights and this bag was on one of the posts"...Tony opens it and there is a note and three title belts... "Dear Tony, Have these defended with honor and violence. We'll be back for them when the time is right. Signed, El Jefe"

And thus, the Trios Titles are introduced to AEW and you can now get 6 guys on TV in one match...and they can be fought under "Trios Rules" which says you can have as many guys in the ring at one time as you want...and count outs are at 20...
 
So true, especially since there were no "house shows" for basically two years...most of the young guys on the AEW roster came from the Indy circuit, and at an Indy show, there is no long term story telling...you pop the crowd for that match and that show...not worried about hard cameras and where the camera on the floor is...that's what I like about AEW Dark and Elevation, it gives the roster a chance to work before a crowd and "camera" for reps...

I never thought about that...that's so true. That goes exactly to what I was referring to by the AEW suffering from not having proper heels and faces. That explains it almost perfectly. They can't get true heel heat going because they can't resist doing a triple swanton off a ladder, or having six signature spots to work into every ten minute match, or a super cool entrance.

MJF definitely got it, but I see little evidence that any of the younger wrestlers get it. Maybe Ethan Page? They need to get a bunch of wrestlers into heel school ASAP. I'm guessing that veterans like CM Punk and Moxley would be able to really heel, but I'm not sure they would ever really overcome all the good will they have built in. Heel Christian might have some good legs.

I'd be working on maybe how to make a guy like Kyle O'Reilly a huge heel. He can really work, but he doesn't seem like he is a guy based on popping the crowd. Maybe Starks can be an arrogant heel in the MJF mode.
 
I never thought about that...that's so true. That goes exactly to what I was referring to by the AEW suffering from not having proper heels and faces. That explains it almost perfectly. They can't get true heel heat going because they can't resist doing a triple swanton off a ladder, or having six signature spots to work into every ten minute match, or a super cool entrance.

MJF definitely got it, but I see little evidence that any of the younger wrestlers get it. Maybe Ethan Page? They need to get a bunch of wrestlers into heel school ASAP. I'm guessing that veterans like CM Punk and Moxley would be able to really heel, but I'm not sure they would ever really overcome all the good will they have built in. Heel Christian might have some good legs.

I'd be working on maybe how to make a guy like Kyle O'Reilly a huge heel. He can really work, but he doesn't seem like he is a guy based on popping the crowd. Maybe Starks can be an arrogant heel in the MJF mode.
O'Reilly is similar to Buddy Murphy not much personality. Black would be another who could do it. If the cult just focused on titles. These faction vs faction fueds are a bit too much of the same thing.
 
I never thought about that...that's so true. That goes exactly to what I was referring to by the AEW suffering from not having proper heels and faces. That explains it almost perfectly. They can't get true heel heat going because they can't resist doing a triple swanton off a ladder, or having six signature spots to work into every ten minute match, or a super cool entrance.

MJF definitely got it, but I see little evidence that any of the younger wrestlers get it. Maybe Ethan Page? They need to get a bunch of wrestlers into heel school ASAP. I'm guessing that veterans like CM Punk and Moxley would be able to really heel, but I'm not sure they would ever really overcome all the good will they have built in. Heel Christian might have some good legs.

I'd be working on maybe how to make a guy like Kyle O'Reilly a huge heel. He can really work, but he doesn't seem like he is a guy based on popping the crowd. Maybe Starks can be an arrogant heel in the MJF mode.
Ethan and Lambert need to turn on Scorpio Sky, turning Sky face and Page as a heel...Sammy Guevara needs to fully embrace the heel role...his face is soooo punchable...Rush and Andrade could be a good heel team...maybe add Sammy to them...House of Black is so over, it's hard for them to be heels when the crowd is cheering for them...I like Jay Lethal and Sonjay Dutt as heels...Starks and Hobbs need to avoid being seen with Hook to stay heel...
 
Ethan and Lambert need to turn on Scorpio Sky, turning Sky face and Page as a heel...Sammy Guevara needs to fully embrace the heel role...his face is soooo punchable...Rush and Andrade could be a good heel team...maybe add Sammy to them...House of Black is so over, it's hard for them to be heels when the crowd is cheering for them...I like Jay Lethal and Sonjay Dutt as heels...Starks and Hobbs need to avoid being seen with Hook to stay heel...
Sammy won't go full heel. He loves popping the crowd too much with I'm so crazy schtick.
 
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Ethan and Lambert need to turn on Scorpio Sky, turning Sky face and Page as a heel...Sammy Guevara needs to fully embrace the heel role...his face is soooo punchable...Rush and Andrade could be a good heel team...maybe add Sammy to them...House of Black is so over, it's hard for them to be heels when the crowd is cheering for them...I like Jay Lethal and Sonjay Dutt as heels...Starks and Hobbs need to avoid being seen with Hook to stay heel...

Yeah, I think that having Ethan and Lambert turn on Scorpio Sky and costing him the title makes sense. Have someone else turn and join the Men of the Year to attack Scorpio, say someone like Kip Sabian. Reunite Scorpio with Kazarian to work a program against Ethan and Sabian. I think Scorpio is great, but I just don't think he's a top guy, and Kazarian and Scorpio are still a great team.

And yeah, having Starks and Hobbs turn on Hook would be a good move to solidify their heel status. Starks has a lot of charisma which is going to make it tough to keep him always a heel, but he could absolutely do the arrogant but cowardly heel thing.
 
Yeah, I think that having Ethan and Lambert turn on Scorpio Sky and costing him the title makes sense. Have someone else turn and join the Men of the Year to attack Scorpio, say someone like Kip Sabian. Reunite Scorpio with Kazarian to work a program against Ethan and Sabian. I think Scorpio is great, but I just don't think he's a top guy, and Kazarian and Scorpio are still a great team.

And yeah, having Starks and Hobbs turn on Hook would be a good move to solidify their heel status. Starks has a lot of charisma which is going to make it tough to keep him always a heel, but he could absolutely do the arrogant but cowardly heel thing.
They could really have something with Starks on my opinion. He gives off a really cool vibe. Having him on commentary is such a waste.
 
They could really have something with Starks on my opinion. He gives off a really cool vibe. Having him on commentary is such a waste.

Yeah, considering how much charisma he has on camera, he really doesn't bring much to commentary.
 
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Tough to tell how much of it is a work. MJF is on a different level when giving out emotions.
Basically fueding with Tony Khan at this point. Which is why I think it's a work.
 
Great bit of pro-wrestling drama from MJF/AEW, but not clear how anyone thinks this isn't a work. I think that went out the window when he showed up for his match. It's totally ok that it is, part of being a fan is suspending belief and that was great tv.

Is their heat between he and TK over pay, sure, but in this day and age, nobody is going to 'shoot' for 4-5 minutes on national television without TK or Vince's blessing.

Where do they go from here? If anything that made MJF, one of their few true heels, more likable than ever. Is this the beginning of the Evil Mr. Khan? Or worse yet lead to a match between the two of them?
 
Great bit of pro-wrestling drama from MJF/AEW, but not clear how anyone thinks this isn't a work. I think that went out the window when he showed up for his match. It's totally ok that it is, part of being a fan is suspending belief and that was great tv.

Is their heat between he and TK over pay, sure, but in this day and age, nobody is going to 'shoot' for 4-5 minutes on national television without TK or Vince's blessing.

Where do they go from here? If anything that made MJF, one of their few true heels, more likable than ever. Is this the beginning of the Evil Mr. Khan? Or worse yet lead to a match between the two of them?

It's definitely a worked shoot, like the the Pipe Bomb promo.

It isn't a typical angle where everything is cool behind the scenes and it's just for storyline purposes. However, it's definitely a work in the sense that TK and AEW approved him going out and doing it and had a good enough idea of what he was going to say. It wasn't a true shoot of course.

Everything he said was dead on.

He is exactly correct calling out the guys that are about high spots. That indy mentality that we were discussing yesterday is strangling AEW creative in my mind with the inability or unwillingness to develop actual heels.

A lot of people consider Hangman's title run a disappointment, that he didn't really elevate himself or AEW after all that build up.

Well, look at his three programs.

First program against a massive babyface Bryan Danielson, still in his honeymoon period, and easily a top three guy in popularity. Yes, they had Danielson do an abrupt heel program, but he's mega popular.

Second program against tweener Adam Cole, who is mega over, gets the biggest intro pop in the company, and generates almost no actual heel heat.

Third program against the top babyface in the company, CM Punk.

I'm sorry...but that's grade a bullshit for a babyface champion.

This is not sustainable booking. You are not going to grow beyond the core indy/AEW fan without casual fans being able to turn in and understand who they are supposed to be rooting for and why.

And arguably the only legit heel in the company is in a contract dispute. And even if they can book their way through the dispute, it's almost certainly going to end up with MJF as a face, because anti-authority always sells in wrestling.

I think someone has to instill some discipline and restriction over the creative. Like everyone else, I enjoyed the Dark Order, and given what happened to Brodie Lee, it's great that it went this way, but letting Lee and the Dark Order become comical babyfaces is a perfect example.

Letting the House of Black have that entrance when they're supposed to be heels is garbage.

They need to find some guys that are willing to heel with the discipline of MJF, and build them up from the ground up, and let them know exactly what is expected and will be tolerated in return for being elevated on the card. I think guys like Daniel Garcia, Kyle O'Reilly, Bobby Fish, Ethan Page, maybe Scorpio Sky, maybe Starks and Hobbs. Tell them...no sing along entrances, no checklist of five signature moves to cover every match unless they draw heel heat, no chant along catch phrases.

I don't know what's going to happen with this MJF worked shoot angle. It's either going to elevate AEW to another level by being must-see TV, or its going to be a creative mess that bogs down the company. Add to that the shoot-ish promo Hangman ran on the company's biggest babyface before Double or Nothing, and I'm not sure how they pull this in a coherent direction.
 
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One thing I might consider in the near term considering where they are...I might run a reverse NWO angle. I think its pretty fruitless to try to get serious heel heat for a lot of these newcomers. I wonder if you could draw heat by original AEW talent aligning as heels against the popular newcomers.

You've got a strong basis for it already, with Hangman talking about "protecting AEW" and MJF being on the record bitter about the newcomers. Jericho can heel. Can you get the Young Bucks act like actual heels, and turn on Cole (making him full babyface)?

You might have something there.

- The heels can work in Cody's departure into the storyline
- You have OG guys but true babyfaces like Jungle Boy and Darby that would create tension on where they align or if they can stay out of it
- You have potential conflict with Britt Baker and Adam Cole on opposite sides
- You have the return of Omega in your back pocket on the heel "OG" side, and someone like Bray Wyatt can come in on the face newcomer side

It would be a little messy, but I think you might have the kernel of something to work with there.
 
Thought a bit more about the MJF promo. Wrong time for it. Miro had to go on after that and totally unfair to him. Plus it makes Wardlow look like a schmuck. It undercuts almost all of the storytelling the rest of the roster is attempting. Bring him back in a month after he's had more time to absorb it. Longterm I don't see how this helps MJF. The WWE isn't going to want him. There is no room anymore for guys unwilling to stick to the script. U can not undercut the WWE product. Know your role and shut your hole. The other Tony Khan won't put up with it.
 
Thought a bit more about the MJF promo. Wrong time for it. Miro had to go on after that and totally unfair to him. Plus it makes Wardlow look like a schmuck. It undercuts almost all of the storytelling the rest of the roster is attempting. Bring him back in a month after he's had more time to absorb it. Longterm I don't see how this helps MJF. The WWE isn't going to want him. There is no room anymore for guys unwilling to stick to the script. U can not undercut the WWE product. Know your role and shut your hole. The other Tony Khan won't put up with it.
I would agree, where do they go from here, because this just trumped every thing else going on in the promotion, nothing can touch this. MJF is now a babyface.

Knowing AEW, I'm sure they have a well thought out long-term direction for this....just add Young Bucks.
 
Watched AEW for the first time ever—that was a LOT better than I expected. That 10-man tag match was nuts. How much of that is scripted and how much is on-the-fly?
 
Watched AEW for the first time ever—that was a LOT better than I expected. That 10-man tag match was nuts. How much of that is scripted and how much is on-the-fly?
Going in they have some spots mapped out. But also leave some room for adlibbing. Not too much though. People could be out of place and that's when bad shit happens.
 
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