Your Abortion "Line"

[Tom Paris]

This is only "about right" if this is not a moral question for you. It's fairly pragmatic - in the sense of requiring the least adjustment from current practice. And pretty easy to get around, since the exact duration is hard to pin down. Easy enough for a sympathetic doctor to say it "looks" 20 weeks when it's really probably 21 or 22.

But if it isn't a moral question for you, why do you care? Is it just to keep the rabble from getting too worked up?

I have to tell you...I have no idea what the hell you are talking about here.

 

[TJ8869]

You asked for another example and something from this country. I provided it. Like I said, you really wouldn't care because you're not really interested in changing your mind. It's cool. Hoosier laid out his standards of what defines a human and I simply pointed out that his standards change from one "human" to the next. Not uncommon for most Pro-Life people

That's correct. You provided one (1) example. If you had to make a wild-ass guess, how do you suppose the percentage of brain-dead people on life support who recover to become functional human beings again compares to the percentage of unborn fetuses who eventually become functional human beings?

There simply is no valid comparison between unborn babies who have their entire life ahead of them and people who have suffered a traumatic brain injury and have little or no chance of ever again surviving independent of machines.

My position on abortion has changed over the years, so your simple-minded assumption that I'm 'not really interested' in changing my mind is shot to hell. The thing is, it's going to take more than a pointless and invalid analogy to compel me to change it again.

 

[HawkMD]

Why implantation? Could be a test tube baby and never be implanted (if we had the tech).

We don't have the tech, and probably never will. If we ever do, I guess I'll have to reconsider.

 

[fredjr82]

There simply is no valid comparison between unborn babies who have their entire life ahead of them and people who have suffered a traumatic brain injury and have little or no chance of ever again surviving independent of machines.

Here's the thing. I agree with you. Neither is really alive just because brainwaves are being detected. I was just trying to prove a point to Hoosier. For some reason you decided to chime in and defend his position. You, like him apparently get to decide which brainwaves matter. In my opinion, that is hypocritical. Arguing that people coming back from life support is so rare that it isn't relevant, is the same as saying that the death penalty (which I assume you agree with) isn't perfect because every once in awhile an innocent person is executed. Let's just agree that we'll probably (just like Hoosier) never see eye to eye on this subject and move forward.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

We don't have the tech, and probably never will. If we ever do, I guess I'll have to reconsider.

Pass my viability compromise and the money will pour into tech development from pro-lifers.

My viability compromise, for any who don't know, is that women should be able to walk into a clinic pregnant and walk out not pregnant and without further obligation. In exchange for that no-fault termination, they give up any right to say what happens to the fetus. If the fetus is viable, it is cared for on the public dime. Which means that if the technology can get there, there need never be another abortion. And until then, the better the tech the fewer the abortions.

Oddly enough, the objections to this come almost entirely from pro-life conservative types. They like the fewer abortion part and the possibility of no abortions in the future. They don't want to pay for it.

 

[HawkMD]

Pass my viability compromise and the money will pour into tech development from pro-lifers.

My viability compromise, for any who don't know, is that women should be able to walk into a clinic pregnant and walk out not pregnant and without further obligation. In exchange for that no-fault termination, they give up any right to say what happens to the fetus. If the fetus is viable, it is cared for on the public dime. Which means that if the technology can get there, there need never be another abortion. And until then, the better the tech the fewer the abortions.

Oddly enough, the objections to this come almost entirely from pro-life conservative types. They like the fewer abortion part and the possibility of no abortions in the future. They don't want to pay for it.

Interesting. Two things. First, the technology of which you speak, saving aborted fetuses before 20 weeks, is probably unattainable, no matter how much money is spent. Second, in this litigious society, biological mothers will still come back to try to get their babies back.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Interesting. Two things. First, the technology of which you speak, saving aborted fetuses before 20 weeks, is probably unattainable, no matter how much money is spent. Second, in this litigious society, biological mothers will still come back to try to get their babies back.

I think you are probably wrong on both counts but even if you are right, what's the harm in trying it? The worst case scenario is that nothing much changes. The best case scenario is that abortions are reduced and perhaps dramatically reduced. Neutral at worst, win-win at best.

Beats turning doctors into criminals and making pregnant women choose between being criminals or slaves.

 

[UNIHawkfan]

My wife is high risk, so I've seen three 6 week ultrasounds with a beating heart. Two of those turned into the coolest little people ever. I just don't understand how someone could want to destroy that. Life is a beautiful gift. Always. No matter what.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

My wife is high risk, so I've seen three 6 week ultrasounds with a beating heart. Two of those turned into the coolest little people ever. I just don't understand how someone could want to destroy that. Life is a beautiful gift. Always. No matter what.

Contrary to the pro-life meme, no one advocates destroying little people. It's when they are NOT little people that there is a choice about how to proceed.

 

[UNIHawkfan]

Contrary to the pro-life meme, no one advocates destroying little people. It's when they are NOT little people that there is a choice about how to proceed.

Yeah, I get that. My point is that after seeing the little flutter (heartbeat) on the ultrasound it felt human/living to me. My conscience couldn't allow me to destroy that. And while I'm not qualified or prepared to judge others for their choice, I feel compelled to advocate when appropriate.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

I think you are probably wrong on both counts but even if you are right, what's the harm in trying it? The worst case scenario is that nothing much changes. The best case scenario is that abortions are reduced and perhaps dramatically reduced. Neutral at worst, win-win at best.

Beats turning doctors into criminals and making pregnant women choose between being criminals or slaves.

Nothing much changing isn't a positive scenario at all for someone who's pro-life.

And being a mother or a father is not being a slave.

 

[theIowaHawk]

My wife is high risk, so I've seen three 6 week ultrasounds with a beating heart. Two of those turned into the coolest little people ever. I just don't understand how someone could want to destroy that. Life is a beautiful gift. Always. No matter what.

This is an important thing to remember.

 

[theIowaHawk]

Yeah, I get that. My point is that after seeing the little flutter (heartbeat) on the ultrasound it felt human/living to me. My conscience couldn't allow me to destroy that. And while I'm not qualified or prepared to judge others for their choice, I feel compelled to advocate when appropriate.

Also, nothing wrong with advocacy. Someone wants you to sit down with them and share your experience? Great, more power to you, change the world.

 

[theIowaHawk]

Second, in this litigious society, biological mothers will still come back to try to get their babies back.

Wouldn't this be a good thing?

 

[UNIHawkfan]

Also, nothing wrong with advocacy. Someone wants you to sit down with them and share your experience? Great, more power to you, change the world.

I've had that opportunity, and I'd like to think it was a positive experience. Like I said, I'm not here to judge. I just know what is right for me.

 

[theIowaHawk]

Since this thread appears to be dead, the final results are interesting, especially considering they remained consistent from beginning to end.

24 basically believe in no abortions at all.
24 will allow it at least until 20 weeks (12 thereafter)

Thanks fellas. Results surprised me.