14 States Have School Choice Voucher Programs

[LuteHawk]

In the Midwest, it is Wisconsin, Indiana, and Ohio

In the South, it is Florida, Georgia, Arkansas, Louisiana,
and Mississippi.

In the East, it is Maine, Vermont, Maryland, North Carolina

In the West, it is Oklahoma, Utah

The intent was to offer parents in underperforming school
districts the opportunity to choose for their children a
better choice for their education. It might be private
academies or religious schools such as Catholic, Lutheran
or Baptist.

Bottom Line: It is too early to tell if the voucher choice of
schools is benefitting the children. Only 400,000 students
are currently involved in this program in those 14 states.

 

[Chishawk1425]

In the Midwest, it is Wisconsin, Indiana, and Ohio

In the South, it is Florida, Georgia, Arkansas, Louisiana,
and Mississippi.

In the East, it is Maine, Vermont, Maryland, North Carolina

In the West, it is Oklahoma, Utah

The intent was to offer parents in underperforming school
districts the opportunity to choose for their children a
better choice for their education. It might be private
academies or religious schools such as Catholic, Lutheran
or Baptist.

Separation of Church and State ring a bell?

 

[CarolinaHawkeye]

Wouldn't it be wiser to find out why those schools underperform? And does it only apply to underperforming schools? If so, who gets to decide which schools are underperforming?

 

[LuteHawk]

Separation of church and state means that the Federal
Government cannot tell you which church you must join.
We have freedom of religion in America.

 

[EagleHawk]

Separation of Church and State ring a bell?

AMENDMENT I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

I'm not a constitutional scholar, but the federal gov't isn't doing this, so no. And the govt isn't saying you have to go to a Catholic school, you can go to any one you choose for the benefit of your child.

 

[BEAVERDALEHAWK]

Separation of church and state means that the Federal
Government cannot tell which church you must join.
We have freedom of religion in America.

It means more than that.

 

[Menace Sockeyes]

The intent was to rob public schools of money and to reward right wing religious schools such as Catholic, Lutheran or Baptist that teach things like Creationism, and to eventually push privatized education further.

FIFY

 

[Bulldogs1974]

In the Midwest, it is Wisconsin, Indiana, and Ohio

In the South, it is Florida, Georgia, Arkansas, Louisiana,
and Mississippi.

In the East, it is Maine, Vermont, Maryland, North Carolina

In the West, it is Oklahoma, Utah

The intent was to offer parents in underperforming school
districts the opportunity to choose for their children a
better choice for their education. It might be private
academies or religious schools such as Catholic, Lutheran
or Baptist.

Bottom Line: It is too early to tell if the voucher choice of
schools is benefitting the children. Only 400,000 students
are currently involved in this program in those 14 states.

check with the teachers in indiana.
I'd love vouchers to be started in michigan. The R's would sh!t themselves when the mooslims start their own.

 

[FAUlty Gator]

Separation of Church and State ring a bell?

It means more than that.

Establishment Clause: Government cannot establish or favor a religion.
Free Exercise Clause: Government cannot tell you or prevent you from worshiping how you choose.

If money is able to be given by a parent to a non-religious private school, how on earth does "Church and State" become an issue?

 

[thewop]

Wouldn't it be wiser to find out why those schools underperform? And does it only apply to underperforming schools? If so, who gets to decide which schools are underperforming?

It would be wise to do that, but that doesn't help anyone's kid now.

That is also riddled with political pitfalls in our current education system.

One example: research says that the most impactful school-based factor in regard to student outcomes is the teacher. It makes sense to invest in teachers. The best way to help teachers improve is to provide them 1:1 non evaluative coaching (3rd party preferred), more effective than workshops or the occasional observation. However, unions often bar teachers from receiving coaching either for fear it will be used evaluatively or because it's not in their contract.

Who loses? Students. That issue and many like it aren't going to be solved quickly and you can't make a case to parents that their kid should suffer while we wait for it to be resolved.

The quick answer? Give parents a choice where their money is spent, and let the schools figure out their internal issues on their own time.

 

[Menace Sockeyes]

If money is able to be given by a parent to a non-religious private school, how on earth does "Church and State" become an issue?

But money WOULD be given to religious private schools via this bill. What are you talking about?

 

[Menace Sockeyes]

The best way to help teachers improve is to provide them 1:1 non evaluative coaching (3rd party preferred), more effective than workshops or the occasional observation. However, unions often bar teachers from receiving coaching either for fear it will be used evaluatively or because it's not in their contract.

Iowa public schools have had Instructional Coaches for years now. Unions endorsed them.

 

[FAUlty Gator]

But money WOULD be given to religious private schools via this bill. What are you talking about?

According to what I read, it's given to the parent to do with what they think is best to help their kid. The parent IS the wall of separation.

 

[swagsurfer02]

check with the teachers in indiana.
I'd love vouchers to be started in michigan. The R's would sh!t themselves when the mooslims start their own.

I have to believe that there are Islamic learning centers somewhat similar to Catholic or Christian schools in the US somewhere.

 

[Bulldogs1974]

According to what I read, it's given to the parent to do with what they think is best to help their kid. The parent IS the wall of separation.

This is a silly and obtuse way to look at it. If you think this isn't going 99% of the time to a religious school or religious homeschool nut in iowa, you'd be wrong. This is 100% about religion.

 

[Titanhawk2]

Separation of Church and State ring a bell?

Yeah, no state religion. Has nothing to do with where you get an education. That's said, state shouldn't be giving money to choose a school.

 

[Bulldogs1974]

I have to believe that there are Islamic learning centers somewhat similar to Catholic or Christian schools in the US somewhere.

now imagine republics knowing that they were getting taxpayer money to spread the word of allah. don't act like you don't realize that.

 

[hexumhawk]

This will be great for the long term of our educational system. Even the hard core public ed people on here have to admit that the system as we know it isn't working well. When you have a monopoly on the funds like public schools have had for decades, the quality erodes with little to no reason for them to improve or adapt. With some form of competition it will make those schools better in the long run.

 

[UNIowaHawk]

Seems that a lot of people are more upset about the state portion (or part of it) going to a religious affiliated school than going to a private school in general.

 

[UNIowaHawk]

Just checking, is everyone OK with local, state, and federal funds going to religious affiliated hospitals, clinics, cemeteries, nursing homes, shelters, AA classes, etc. We are just drawing the line at schools?

 

[Bulldogs1974]

This will be great for the long term of our educational system. Even the hard core public ed people on here have to admit that the system as we know it isn't working well. When you have a monopoly on the funds like public schools have had for decades, the quality erodes with little to no reason for them to improve or adapt. With some form of competition it will make those schools better in the long run.

It works shockingly well considering the vast array of student/parents that walk through the door.
Don't think for a second that companies like pearson, that both write the tests and the books, don't have an agenda.
Imagine having to teach a class that has you and huey in it.

 

[UNIowaHawk]

Separation of Church and State ring a bell?

Explain how the voucher system is a form of the government advancing religion.

 

[hexumhawk]

It works shockingly well considering the vast array of student/parents that walk through the door.
Don't think for a second that companies like pearson, that both write the tests and the books, don't have an agenda.
Imagine having to teach a class that has you and huey in it.

I don't disagree about that. I think it does and will continue to work for a good chunk of the population. I think some competition and choice is always a good thing and should help everyone in the end. We can all agree though that we are not going in the right direction currently...not all of that is on the schools though.

 

[sober_teacher]

Seems that a lot of people are more upset about the state portion (or part of it) going to a religious affiliated school than going to a private school in general.

My issue with school choice is that by giving vouchers to attend a private school, you’re then taking that money from the public school, which further starves the public school of valuable resources. It turns education into a zero sum game where one side benefits at the expense of the other, and that’s not how we should approach education.

I have a cousin whose kids are attending a private school in Indianapolis, tuition is something like 12k if not more. You think public schools are spending $12k per kid?

 

[Bulldogs1974]

I don't disagree about that. I think it does and will continue to work for a good chunk of the population. I think some competition and choice is always a good thing and should help everyone in the end. We can all agree though that we are not going in the right direction currently...not all of that is on the schools though.

But it's not competition. Private schools will still exclude kids with 0 accountability. We are literally giving them money for nothing.

 

[hexumhawk]

My issue with school choice is that by giving vouchers to attend a private school, you’re then taking that money from the public school, which further starves the public school of valuable resources. It turns education into a zero sum game where one side benefits at the expense of the other, and that’s not how we should approach education.

I have a cousin whose kids are attending a private school in Indianapolis, tuition is something like 12k if not more. You think public schools are spending $12k per kid?

I think the general public sees public schools as already bloated financially even though they scream every year about how underfunded they are. Huge systems without real oversight usually tend to do that, not just schools. This should make them assess how and where they use the funds they have.

 

[swagsurfer02]

now imagine republics knowing that they were getting taxpayer money to spread the word of allah. don't act like you don't realize that.

Surprisingly enough, I’m sure there are lots of groups who are less than enthused concerning where there tax money goes. It’s not new.

 

[hexumhawk]

But it's not competition. Private schools will still exclude kids with 0 accountability. We are literally giving them money for nothing.

Under what grounds will they be excluding kids outside of limited size at some of these schools?

 

[FAUlty Gator]

This is a silly and obtuse way to look at it. If you think this isn't going 99% of the time to a religious school or religious homeschool nut in iowa, you'd be wrong. This is 100% about religion.

And why is it you want a child in the worst school district in the state to be forced to suffer through that and screw themselves out of a future?

It's kinda crazy that 100% of the people who are FOR forgiving all college debt (equaling hundreds of thousands per person) at the expense of the taxpayer, are completely against helping kids escape poor education at primary and secondary education for way cheaper.

 

[LuteHawk]

If all the religiously affiliated hospitals in America
closed down tomorrow, then our nation will be in
a desperate condition. We have Catholic, Methodist,
Presbyterian, Lutheran, etc. hospitals serving the
general public and providing a needed service.

 

[Bulldogs1974]

Under what grounds will they be excluding kids outside of limited size at some of these schools?

behavior/iep/504. they don't need a reason. They have no oversight. I'm assuming you are a big fan of ppp money having no requirements?

 

[Bulldogs1974]

And why is it you want a child in the worst school district in the state to be forced to suffer through that and screw themselves out of a future?

It's kinda crazy that 100% of the people who are FOR forgiving all college debt (equaling hundreds of thousands per person) at the expense of the taxpayer, are completely against helping kids escape poor education at primary and secondary education for way cheaper.

talk to teacher in indiana. This problem wasn't solved by vouchers. Private schools raised the price of tuition. If you were poor and got a voucher you still aren't going to be able to afford the price increase. It did not solve that problem.

 

[Bulldogs1974]

And why is it you want a child in the worst school district in the state to be forced to suffer through that and screw themselves out of a future?

It's kinda crazy that 100% of the people who are FOR forgiving all college debt (equaling hundreds of thousands per person) at the expense of the taxpayer, are completely against helping kids escape poor education at primary and secondary education for way cheaper.

I'm not for forgiving college debt. that is crazy.

 

[stout1]

The intent was to offer parents in underperforming school
districts the opportunity to choose for their children a
better choice for their education. It might be private
academies or religious schools such as Catholic, Lutheran
or Baptist.

That was how it was originally sold in Indiana, but it is now clear that the intent was to give money to middle class white suburban families so they can attend religious schools. In Indiana the vouchers are now available to any family of 4 making over $160k/year. They stripped out the failing school clause. They stripped out the "attend at least one year of public school clause". They have allowed schools to raise their tuition so that it eases the burden on the middle class, but restricts the ability to attend of families in need.

Bottom Line: It is too early to tell if the voucher choice of
schools is benefitting the children. Only 400,000 students
are currently involved in this program in those 14 states.

Indiana has had vouchers for 10 years. The studies of academic achievement have been pretty damning. Students who utilize vouchers have shown appreciable increase in their academic achievement in Language Arts and have seen a slight decrease in Math when compared to the peers at the public school they left.

 

[FAUlty Gator]

talk to teacher in indiana. This problem wasn't solved by vouchers. Private schools raised the price of tuition. If you were poor and got a voucher you still aren't going to be able to afford the price increase. It did not solve that problem.

Private schools ALWAYS raise the price of tuition. And private schools also quite often offer financial aid to fill in the gaps to the people who qualify. All the ones I've been associated have.

 

[Bulldogs1974]

Private schools ALWAYS raise the price of tuition. And private schools also quite often offer financial aid to fill in the gaps to the people who qualify. All the ones I've been associated have.

lol. Those gaps are filled in by the right kids, not all kids. As far as price, yes tuition get raised, really....the difference will the the amount. if tuition was 4k and parents are now getting 7k. the new tuition will be 9k. the parents will now have a reduction in tuition by 2k and those that are poor won't be able to pay the additional 2k.
Where do you think all these kids would get put in a private school? If all the iep/504/behavioral problem kids could really go to a private school, what would the advantage be. Let's not be stupid here.

 

[Aardvark86]

The constitutionality of such programs is likely to be made even clearer this term, to the extent that the voucher is usable on any private (religious or nonreligious) school, and that it is not permissible to exclude religious schools from such programs.

As to educational performance, personally I'm skeptical that there's a material difference when you control for things like income.

 

[stout1]

I think the general public sees public schools as already bloated financially even though they scream every year about how underfunded they are. Huge systems without real oversight usually tend to do that, not just schools. This should make them assess how and where they use the funds they have.

Every month, I publicly report my revenue and expenses in a school board meeting. I report to the state every 6 months a full accounting of the money received and the money spent for our public school. Every 2 years we are subject to an independent audit of our books by an outside group. I also have links on our school website that details my budget information for all to see.

I have done this for nearly 2 decades.

 

[Aardvark86]

Wouldn't it be wiser to find out why those schools underperform? And does it only apply to underperforming schools? If so, who gets to decide which schools are underperforming?

Of course it would, but we all know that the reality of public educational finance and politics is that rich districts do better, and poorer districts do worse, as a general matter. And yet, that doesn't necessarily mean that throwing more money at the poorer district actually solves any problems.

 

[UNIowaHawk]

My issue with school choice is that by giving vouchers to attend a private school, you’re then taking that money from the public school, which further starves the public school of valuable resources. It turns education into a zero sum game where one side benefits at the expense of the other, and that’s not how we should approach education.

I have a cousin whose kids are attending a private school in Indianapolis, tuition is something like 12k if not more. You think public schools are spending $12k per kid?

1) You’re taking a portion of the state amount to the private school for taking on the student. In a sense they are outsourcing the work— pay a portion of state allotment and one less child in public school. Look at CR Xavier, it has ~700 students. The vouchers take about $5K of the $7K and give that to Xavier, or about $3.5M. Assume they are spread across with average class size of 25, that’s 28 plus specialist and Admin so say 60 faculty (CR Xavier has 64 I think) and assume $60K each fully burdened, that’s $3.6M. This also excludes all facility costs. Yes, some of these student could be absorbed into existing schools, but not much without having to hire more teachers, Admin, and structure.
2) Public schools keep the remainder of the state plus 100% of all local whether that student goes public or private
3) Yes, public schools are spending more than $12K per student. Ours is $14,391 per student, but much of that is due to bloated teacher contracts, but I digress. Cedar Rapids pays $12,145 per student.