This. Folks do not realize how good that 86-87 team was. 3 guys with very long NBA careers (Armstrong, Gamble, Lohaus) and 2 others who were first round picks (Marble and Horton). There is maybe 1 NBA draft pick on the current squad (Garza) and another who may get the periphery of the league in Wieskamp. Appreciate the heck out of the current roster and will enjoy seeing what they can do, but just not in the same stratosphere from a talent standpoint as 86-87.
1986-87 vs 2020-21 team who would win??
- Thread starter bowlhawk
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This. Folks do not realize how good that 86-87 team was. 3 guys with very long NBA careers (Armstrong, Gamble, Lohaus) and 2 others who were first round picks (Marble and Horton). There is maybe 1 NBA draft pick on the current squad (Garza) and another who may get the periphery of the league in Wieskamp. Appreciate the heck out of the current roster and will enjoy seeing what they can do, but just not in the same stratosphere from a talent standpoint as 86-87.
I’d have to agree 86-87. Probably in a walk. I like Joe W.’s game and it is more well rounded than Roy’s was, but Roy would eat Joe’s lunch all week and twice on Sunday. That team had some grown ass men on it. I think we’ve all seen over the years certain games that were men against boys and all too often the Hawks have been on the losing end of that scenario.
Interesting looking back at that 86-87 season, especially in the post season. I know people seem to think Dr Tom was just constantly subbing guys in and out but in the Oklahoma game for example, our starters played 36, 32, 30, 29 and 20. Wright and Horton each played 20 minutes in that game. Moe and Lorenzon played 12 and 10. Bill Jones 7. This is no different than most teams today. Also, when you are bringing a McDonalds All American off the bench you have a LOT of talent. Like some have said, the 3 pointer was just not much of a factor at all except of course in the UNLV game. They shot 30 3 pointers in that game, and I believe we shot 6. They were 11-30 and we were 2-6, which was totally the difference in the game. As some have stated, we were not much of a 3 point shooting team.
And the current team’s ability to shoot the three and spread the floor would be unlike anything that any player who played in the 80’s had ever seen before. The ‘86 team didn’t have a single player who averaged four three pointers attempted per game, while last year’s team had five players who averaged 3+. Anybody who thinks Lohaus would’ve been capable of playing with Garza without fouling out is out of their mind. It’s a different game now, and the two teams are either incomparable or I’m going with the current team
The NBA has changed quite a bit since the mid 80's don't most of you agree? Yes, the 86/87 team had players that played in the NBA, but so did Les Jepsen and how many of you think that he was as dominate a player as Luka Garza? I'd bet most would say NO.....
No doubt there was talent on that team as most of the players saw time in the NBA.....Gerry Wright entered the Navy and became a pilot, he surely was athletic enough to play at the NBA level, Ed Horton only played 1 year in the NBA and evidently quit, Gamble played 11 season most with Boston, B.J. played 13 season most with Chicago, Lohaus played all or part of 14 seasons with 7 different teams, Bill Jones only played 1 season, Jeff Moe only played in the Continental Basketball league, but as I said earlier in this post as good as that 86/87 team was some of those players that got drafted then would not have in this age of the NBA.
No doubt there was talent on that team as most of the players saw time in the NBA.....Gerry Wright entered the Navy and became a pilot, he surely was athletic enough to play at the NBA level, Ed Horton only played 1 year in the NBA and evidently quit, Gamble played 11 season most with Boston, B.J. played 13 season most with Chicago, Lohaus played all or part of 14 seasons with 7 different teams, Bill Jones only played 1 season, Jeff Moe only played in the Continental Basketball league, but as I said earlier in this post as good as that 86/87 team was some of those players that got drafted then would not have in this age of the NBA.
UNO, I agree that it's tough to compare different eras of basketball. As we know scoring is not a problem with the current team. Adding Bohannon back to the mix and hopefully a healthy CJ Frederick for the whole year this team is going to be hard to stop. But as we know stopping the other team has always been a problem. That 86-87 team dropped 100 on Indiana, which was unheard of back in those days. Dr Tom played a zone, so there would be plenty of opportunities for open looks. Big Ten was also absolutely stacked in those days, obviously Indiana winning the national championship that year. I think the 86-87 team would score at will on this team. Also think our current team would put up a lot of points as well.
The Big Ten was a powerhouse then, but it’s no slouch now. It’s also worth noting that parity has never been higher in college basketball as youth development in programs like AAU has drastically increased talent across the board. It’s one of the big reasons that I just can’t understand the argument that good teams from back in the day could beat today’s good teams. Players now are more skilled than ever, despite what many wish to believe
My vote goes for 86-87.
I know Dr Tom could be pretty stubborn about playing zone, but in this matchup i think they would play more man defense. Marble, Gamble and Bill Jones were long and pretty quick; the 2020 wings would struggle to get good shots.
Someone said that Garza would get Lohaus in foul trouble early. Not a big deal. Dr Tom could throw Lohaus, Wright, Horton, Lorenzen and Kent Hill at Garza. Garza could do well individually against any of these, but cumulatively I think the 86-87 guys could wear Garza down. On the flip side, Wright and Horton might be able to get Garza in foul trouble. Wright was pretty quick and he had a few decent offensive moves.
The current roster is not a great rebounding team. Marble, Horton and Gamble were very good at getting offensive rebounds and 2nd chance points.
And finally, what does the current team struggle with? Stopping penetration defensively. I think that BJ, Marble and Gamble could get in the paint pretty easily.
I know Dr Tom could be pretty stubborn about playing zone, but in this matchup i think they would play more man defense. Marble, Gamble and Bill Jones were long and pretty quick; the 2020 wings would struggle to get good shots.
Someone said that Garza would get Lohaus in foul trouble early. Not a big deal. Dr Tom could throw Lohaus, Wright, Horton, Lorenzen and Kent Hill at Garza. Garza could do well individually against any of these, but cumulatively I think the 86-87 guys could wear Garza down. On the flip side, Wright and Horton might be able to get Garza in foul trouble. Wright was pretty quick and he had a few decent offensive moves.
The current roster is not a great rebounding team. Marble, Horton and Gamble were very good at getting offensive rebounds and 2nd chance points.
And finally, what does the current team struggle with? Stopping penetration defensively. I think that BJ, Marble and Gamble could get in the paint pretty easily.
On the converse, the amount of athleticism, depth, and experiance on the 87 team would be like nothing the 21 team, or any team of this era, could ever dream of.
I don’t think the experience factor is that substantial. This year’s team is very experienced, and the depth (while currently unknown) has the potential to be quality as well
They are also outmatched in terms of athleticism in most games they play in anyways. This version of Iowa wins games with good ball movement, good shooting, and the most dominant big man in the country
86/87 would get my vote if they were playing a best of five or seven series. Watching Garza and Horton battle in the the paint would be worth the price of admission. To be fair, I think this topic and discussion should be revisited after the 20/21 season as we are speculating on what this team will become.
In my opinion, the 86'-87' team would be able to exploit the weaknesses that the 19'-20' team had, which was in defending athletic teams and rebounding. Until we see this Hawkeye team take that next step - and I think they did last year somewhat and they don't have to be ELITE, especially with how efficient the offense is - I think it will be hard for Iowa to be a Final Four-type team (which the 86'-87' team obviously was). I'm not saying they can't make the Final Four next year but I believe they need to shore-up those pieces and I think the 86'-87' team would have won in a very high scoring game.
But it's not soph Marble vs soph Weis amp. Here's the match ups added (I may have a couple bench guys wrong):
Starters
1 - BJ Armstrong SO vs Connor McCaffery RS JR
2 - Kevin Gamble SR vs CJ Fredrick RS SO
3 - Roy Marble SO vs Joe Wieskamp JR
4 - Ed Horton SO vs Jack Nunge RS JR
5 - Brad Lohaus SR vs Luka Garza SR
Bench:
Jeff Moe JR vs Jordan Bohannon RS SR
Bill Jones JR vs Patrick McCaffery RS FR
Michael Reaves JR vs Joe Toussaint SO
Gerry Wright vs SR
Al Lorenzen JR
Kent Hill JR
All that said, I'd probably give the edge to '87, but 21 has enough firepower to give a fight. 87 would probably dominate the boards.
When the current team is up by 18 in the 2nd half, pretty sure they won't choke down the stretch. 
I just don’t think this team could guard Marble Gamble Armstrong and that’s the difference. I love Jordan Joe and CJ but this is a bad matchup for them
Depth wise, 86-87 hands down the most talented team. For starting 5+1, Ralph Miller’s 6-pack (Johnson, Brown, Calabria, Vidnovic, Jensen and McGilmer), might have been the best Iowa team. They averaged 98.7 ppg and went 14-0 in the Big Ten.
Would'nt you love to have seen that 86 87 team growing up to play college ball in 2020
I’d be singing an entirely different tune... which is why I said that the two teams are either incomparable, or I’d have to take the current team if forced to choose
86-87 Raveling NBA roster caught the world by surprise with DR Tom coaching press and rebounding out of the zone.
Fran counters with excellent press break coaching ala what Izzo did in late 90's.
Teams would split 10 games.
Fran counters with excellent press break coaching ala what Izzo did in late 90's.
Teams would split 10 games.
86-87 without a doubt. Gamble during 86-87 was way better than any of the current perimeter players. Plus, with that team's athleticism their D would have been very tough for the 2020-2021 team. Garza can stop Lohaus inside and out, but who on this year's team could stop Lorenzen, Wright, and Horton inside?!
And, let's face it, the 2020-2021 perimeter D is just okay at best. Give BJ, Moe, Gamble, and Marble an offseason to prepare for the way 3s are part of the offense now and that's a better outside shooting team than 2020-2021, too. Gamble was filling it up from outside against Okie and UNLV in the tourney (not necessarily threes, but 17-18 footers; shoot well from that distance and pushing it out to 3-point land can be done). 86-87 on the fast break? They'd have the 2020-2021 team exhausted by halftime with a 20-point lead.
That team was so much better than Elite 8--and that was back when pretty much every player on every team stayed the full four years before going pro. 86-87 going 30-5 against their schedule that year was incredible.
And, let's face it, the 2020-2021 perimeter D is just okay at best. Give BJ, Moe, Gamble, and Marble an offseason to prepare for the way 3s are part of the offense now and that's a better outside shooting team than 2020-2021, too. Gamble was filling it up from outside against Okie and UNLV in the tourney (not necessarily threes, but 17-18 footers; shoot well from that distance and pushing it out to 3-point land can be done). 86-87 on the fast break? They'd have the 2020-2021 team exhausted by halftime with a 20-point lead.
That team was so much better than Elite 8--and that was back when pretty much every player on every team stayed the full four years before going pro. 86-87 going 30-5 against their schedule that year was incredible.
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In no way can you say 86, 87 would be better shooting 3's than this current team. 3 pointers now days are shot from 3 to 5, and more feet behind the line now. Even our perimeter D would be so much better if we were guarding the high school line.
These current Hawks played some fast and athletic teams and granted only won 20 games, but the big 10 was not nearly as tough top to bottom. The bottom half were not half as tough as the bottom half of the teams today. And their pre conference schedule was a joke, compared to our last years schedule.
Ha, there were way more NBA players playing in the B10 in 1986-1987 than there are now. None of the teams Iowa played last year had anywhere near the depth of athleticism that the 86-87 team had. Also, none of the teams Iowa played last year were as good as Indiana, Purdue, Illinois, NC State, Oklahoma, or UNLV were in 86-87, I don't know how young you are so you may not really understand how good that team was or how much deeper college basketball was then because there were so few players who declared early to go pro. Only future Hall-of-Famers like Michael Jordan declared early back then.
As far as the 3-pointers go, an offseason or two would be enough to make 86-87 dangerous. Both BJ Armstrong and Kevin Gamble became 3-point specialists IN THE NBA playing for the Chicago Bulls and Boston Celtics, respectively. In addition to Armstrong, Gamble, and Marble having outside shots, they could all put the ball on the floor and FLY by their opponents to the basket and either finish or dish to an open player. There isn't a single Iowa player on this year's team who could stay with Armstrong, Gamble, or Marble off the dribble if they drove into the lane. Because of that, Iowa's players would have to sag off of them and give them open shots. And if Marble, Gamble, and Armstrong didn't want to drive or shoot from outside, they could feed Lorenzen or Wright or Horton or Lohaus inside, whichever two of those guys who was on the floor and not being guarded by Garza (although they could go at Garza and try to get him in foul trouble, too).
There wasn't a single team in 2019-20 that had anywhere near as good of a starting five AND bench than Iowa had in 86-87:
--Armstrong (best equivalent would be Xavier Simpson or Anthony Cowan)
--Kevin Gamble (Not really any equivalent; he was better than every other guard/sf in the B10 last year)
--Roy Marble (Not really any equivalent; he was better than every other guard in the B10 last year)
--Ed Horton (maybe Kaleb Wesson)
--Brad Lohaus (pick a skinny 7-footer who shoots 3s incredibly well but can play decently inside; somewhere between Kreiner and Garza)
Off the bench
--Jeff Moe
--Al Lorenzen
--Gerry Wright
--Bill Jones
--Michael Reaves
Come on, the 86-87 team would have walked away with the 2019-2020 B10 title. Imagine if they had anything like the weight-lifting and off-season workout routines that there are nowadays. There's just ... there's just no way any current B10 team could compete with that squad. No one in the current B10 has that much star power on their team. Very few teams in college basketball any more have that much star power; Gamble, Marble, BJ, and Lohaus wouldn't have even been on that team if it existed nowadays; they all would have declared for the NBA draft before 86-87.
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BirdistheWord
HB Legend
Marble was more raw in 86-87 and so can see how you could score as a "tie." As a sophomore, he was not a serious 3 point threat at that stage of his career (28% or thereabouts). The game was a bit different then too. Their stats were quite similar after two years each as Iowa players.
Side Note: Marble improved his 3 point shooting from 11% to 40% from Jr to Sr year
BirdistheWord
HB Legend
If I'm correct (Wikipedia) 86-87 was the first year the 3 pointer was used in the tournament. Very few teams, maybe a UNLV, were really using it the way it is used now. Dr Tom certainly incorporated it more in his later years with guys like MaCausland. Also don't agree that the current team is more skilled. Lohaus became one of the early 3 point 7 foot shooters in the league. He was never a back to the basket 7 footer. Luka would have to go out and guard him. Just because guys are athletic doesn't mean they aren't skilled. BJ was an incredible pt guard. And again, Marble, Gamble, Lorenzen, Wright, Horton, even Bill Jones. The depth was incredible. Even beating UTEP in the first round of the tournament was a really good game. And they had an NBA star on that team in Tim Hardaway.
BirdistheWord
HB Legend
I never said "athleticism" and being "skilled" were mutually exclusive. For the record, I am a huge fan of the 86-87 team. My evidence for stating that the current team was more skilled was based on a combination of FG shooting, FT shooting, low post moves, and passing. Very subjective of course (i have not compared stats) and to your point (and my point "the game was a bit different too.") the three point shooting was not as developed making it difficult to compare across eras. I felt like the 86-87 team could "overwhelm" other teams with depth, athleticism, of course very good skill and the non stop full court press. Current team plays a much different game IMO.
In a five game series I would go with 2020 to win three of the games but it would be very closely contested.
Always fun to debate these hypothethicals. Going strictly by how they performed at the time (no doubt the 86-87 team would have shot 3s better with more practice - it was new at the time), I think it would hinge on how well the current squad handled the press. If they don't turn it over for a lot of easy baskets, they have a great chance to win.
Besides outside shooting, that 86-87 team was also raw at the point and lacked depth there. BJ came a long way that year, but was far below how he played the next two seasons. Bill Jones was forced into the backup role with Micheal Reeves nursing an injury.
Besides outside shooting, that 86-87 team was also raw at the point and lacked depth there. BJ came a long way that year, but was far below how he played the next two seasons. Bill Jones was forced into the backup role with Micheal Reeves nursing an injury.
I wasn't alive then, so I have to ask, how was their defense?
This team could potentially be the best offensive team Iowa has ever had. But we were far from a great defensive team last year. at best we were average. I remember watching that bald guy from Purdue absolutely light us up. I'm not sure if the additions we have coming in improve our defense.
Hard to say next year's team will be the best team in school history until I see their defense improve
Scored over 100 pts the following year 12 times, which is insane. Sweet 16 but got blown out by that very good Arizona team that had already beaten us in Carver. Sean Elliot, Stever Kerr, Tom Tolbert, 6th man Kenny Lofton who played CF all those years for the Indians.
I followed the 86-87 team religiously as well as the great undefeated (conference) '70 team (JJ, Freddie, Stick, Chad, Ben & Jensen). I think that the current 20-21 Hawks would beat those teams head-to-head more often than not. If the '70 team had a little more height in the middle (Jensen was 6'8"), that might tip the scales. The 86-87 team was great, but I don't think they could stop the current team's offense & despite superior athleticism at some positions, I don't think they could keep up with the scoring of our current team. One more opinion in the mix.
They scored more and gave up more in 86, 87. The conference had 6 out of 10 teams average in the 80's. But all big ten teams gave up more than 70 pts a game. 19, 20 only had 3 teams in the 70's, including Iowa at 72 pts given up.
Iowa's 86, 87 team gave up 74 points a game which put them 5th out of a 10 team conference. 19, 20 gave up 72 pts and finished third to the bottom of a 14 team conference. Defence is just better these days.
Amen. That suffocating , man to man that UNLV used. A lot of hand checking in that game.led to the choke.When the current team is up by 18 in the 2nd half, pretty sure they won't choke down the stretch.
The 86-87 team would destroy our current team. Is this a real thread? I love Luka but you think he would fare well against teams back then that had rosters of juniors and seniors that weren’t early NBA entrants? The college game today is a shell of what it was back then. Joe Weiskamp bless his soul would not have started - you guys realize that?
I don't think the jr/sr observation pertains in this case. Both teams have them, and the key seniors on the 86-87 team (Gamble, Lohaus, Wright) would not have been early NBA entrants.
Regarding Joe W., you're probably right he wouldn't have started on the 86-87 team, but he would have gotten lots of PT. He is a better shooter than anyone on that team and would have eaten up most of Jeff Moe's minutes. He might have gotten a few of KG's as well. Who knows, Dr. Tom may have used him at the point instead of Bill Jones.
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