An argument for the athletic PG

[hawksense]

Since it's been worn to death, I thought I'd finally offer this: why does it have to be a point guard?
Could a shooting guard with skills drive and dish? Could a 3, also, possess those skills? Could multiple positions actually get the job done?

Short sightedness and traditional thinking maintain that a point guard HAS to be the one to provide certain skills. I get that. But, I"d like to get traditional PG skills out of my 2 and 3. Hell, even the 4 and 5 need to have good passing skills. They don't have to drive and dish, just dish.

Moss and Dailey, to me, are very intriguing prospects. Moss has, at times, proven to be a very valuable driver. He seems to have an ability to break down defenses and get into the lane.

Dailey, on film, makes me think that his development is crucial this offseason. I'm hoping he sticks and his time on the team was an invaluable learning experience. Kind of a reshirt with some exposure to live action.

Add in Connor, and we seem to have some pieces with which to work. Plus, any other unforeseeable moves might create more room. And some non-traditional thinking.

 

[L. Wade Childress]

Moss and Dailey do not have the ball handling skills I would ideally like to see

 

[Stormn Norman]

I'm just hoping for the second coming of Chris Paul to wind up in Iowa City... is that much to ask??

 

[hawkeyeguy69]

Since it's been worn to death, I thought I'd finally offer this: why does it have to be a point guard?
Could a shooting guard with skills drive and dish? Could a 3, also, possess those skills? Could multiple positions actually get the job done?

Short sightedness and traditional thinking maintain that a point guard HAS to be the one to provide certain skills. I get that. But, I"d like to get traditional PG skills out of my 2 and 3. Hell, even the 4 and 5 need to have good passing skills. They don't have to drive and dish, just dish.

Moss and Dailey, to me, are very intriguing prospects. Moss has, at times, proven to be a very valuable driver. He seems to have an ability to break down defenses and get into the lane.

Dailey, on film, makes me think that his development is crucial this offseason. I'm hoping he sticks and his time on the team was an invaluable learning experience. Kind of a reshirt with some exposure to live action.

Add in Connor, and we seem to have some pieces with which to work. Plus, any other unforeseeable moves might create more room. And some non-traditional thinking.

I am hoping Dailey develops as well. He has some skills. And he does have good ball handling skills contrary to the other poster. Fran said he could play the 1-3 positions. You have to have some ball handling skills to be mentioned in that regard.

Dailey has the talent, watch his tapes. We will see if he can put in the effort and develop to the level we need this summer. Same with Williams. If he an develop more of an outside shot, that would be huge. And it WILL take effort. Lots of it. Development of both these two this spring and summer will be crucial, IMHO...

I say let Baer mentor them. Yes, that is the ticket. Lock them in a cage with Baer(pun intended) all summer, and see how they turn out in the fall. I will bet the farm they turn out different!

 

[hawksense]

I'm just hoping for the second coming of Chris Paul to wind up in Iowa City... is that much to ask??

Yes. The Chris Paul's of the world are lining up to come to Iowa.

Point being, if JorBo can provide 3 point shooting and a high assist to TO ratio, why can't someone else provide the others in the half court, which is the crux of every contention?

 

[DanL53]

You are a little late but the attempt is appreciated. I tried making that point but it died in committee.

It appears there is no way we can win, whether we've done it or not, without a certain type of point guard.

The Big Ten is full of those types, except for us, and that is why we constantly finish 14th in the league! Every team in the Big Ten has two or three of those guys, except us.

In this Alice Through The Looking Glass land of couch coaches, the fact has been established that we can't win without the Mad Hatter at point guard! I would have said the White Rabbit but sometimes I think that white might be part of why some posters complain.

Let's face it. We need to fly over the rainbow and walk a yellow brick road and recruit like Dorothy!

 

[bagdropper]

All the guards currently on the roster must improve all their skills dramatically. With Williams, add in that he must get the back issue resolved to where he can progress easier.

These alone will make JoBo better no matter if Iowa adds a true point or not.

 

[Fan In Black]

You just need to watch basketball at all levels to understand the value of atheletic guards.

 

[DanL53]

You just need to watch basketball at all levels to understand the value of atheletic guards.

Yes, and I'm sure McCaffery was thinking the same thing when he passed on Bohannon, just like a lot of other coaches. Not athletic enough.

And I must be off my rocker to wish we had another couple of guys just like him so we could enjoy it, at pg, all game long even if one was injured.

 

[hawksense]

Yes. And there's only so many of them. If we can't recruit one here, we have to do the next best thing and quit whining about what we don't have.

 

[EZ2BJZ]

Mike Gesell was considered athletic. Just saying...

 

[Fan In Black]

Yes, and I'm sure McCaffery was thinking the same thing when he passed on Bohannon, just like a lot of other coaches. Not athletic enough.

And I must be off my rocker to wish we had another couple of guys just like him so we could enjoy it, at pg, all game long even if one was injured.

Never said JB sucked or you cant win with him, but you would be off your rocker not to think coaches covet atheltic perimeter players. Im not bashing the kids or the coaches. Iowa would be well served with a player or two that fit that mold. If you disagree thats fine.

 

[ScoutRefugee]

You just need to watch basketball at all levels to understand the value of atheletic guards.

This^^^. But the point of the OP is a valid one. A Devyn Marble type skill set at the 2G spot next to Bohannon would be equally as effective. Whomever it is, they need to be able to break down a defense and play above average BIG quality on ball defense. We cannot win a BIG title with another poor defender at the 2G spot, next to Bohannon who is already weak defensively. Not if we want to be able to beat top 25 teams on their good days, that is.

 

[ScoutRefugee]

Moss Williams and Dailey do not have the ball handling skills I would ideally like to see

FIFY

 

[ScoutRefugee]

Mike Gesell was considered athletic. Just saying...

This is true. But he had tunnel vision when he put his head down to drive the basketball. The moment he made his move to the basket, it was for one purpose and one purpose only. That was his undoing at PG. IMO.

 

[And1Hawk]

Maybe we can talk Tum-Tum Narim from
MSU to transfer over since he's arguably the fastest and maybe most athletic PG play-maker in the B1G that has yet to make all-B1G or even keep the starting job for that matter. He can break down a D and create though!

 

[ScoutRefugee]

Maybe we can talk Tum-Tum Narim from
MSU to transfer over since he's arguably the fastest and maybe most athletic PG play-maker in the B1G that has yet to make all-B1G or even keep the starting job for that matter. He can break down a D and create though!

We could do much worse, that's for sure. But he's a defensive liability and he can't shoot a lick. You've chosen an equally limited player for your straw man argument.

 

[DanL53]

Never said JB sucked or you cant win with him, but you would be off your rocker not to think coaches covet atheltic perimeter players. Im not bashing the kids or the coaches. Iowa would be well served with a player or two that fit that mold. If you disagree thats fine.

Just to be clear. Your point is that anyone who watches a little basketball and isn't off their rocker knows the value of an athletic perimeter player. Right?

Big surprise but we agree. In fact, I'll go so far as that is true of ANY position on the court.

My disagreement comes when persons, obviously not you, go so far as to believe we'd be better off moving a sub-six foot facilitator who can hit the three to shooting guard. Watching a 6'6" guy like Jok try to work around the court to get open while he was grabbed, elbowed, tackled, shoved....what would happen to Bohannon?

And what's the difference if it is our point guard or a shooting guard that can penetrate? Frankly, these days it isn't all about breaking down your man, but being able to take contact and finish the shot that makes for a guy who can drive and score.

In the offense that we run, we are just fine and will win a lot of games with Bohannon at point. I'm glad you agree with that. (See your part in bold up above)

And finally, let me add and I don't know if you agree with this or not, if we continue to add players that can keep the offense moving, whether they be the point guard, or a wing or a big, if we continue to share the ball and emphasize team basketball (look at our assists to shots made) we'll be better off than having some guy who dribbles at the top of the key looking for a way to drive past his guy while everybody else stands around watching.

 

[DanL53]

Maybe we can talk Tum-Tum Narim from
MSU to transfer over since he's arguably the fastest and maybe most athletic PG play-maker in the B1G that has yet to make all-B1G or even keep the starting job for that matter. He can break down a D and create though!

Yeah, let's offer a trade, Bohannon for him and see how fast Izzo accepts.

 

[And1Hawk]

We could do much worse, that's for sure. But he's a defensive liability and he can't shoot a lick. You've chosen an equally limited player for your straw man argument.

24 & 10 in the BTT, 2 games of 7 3's, game winning shot at Wisky, all-B1G freshman team (not voted on by us) .... all for an equally limited player. Give me a few more of these guys.

 

[And1Hawk]

Yeah, let's offer a trade, Bohannon for him and see how fast Izzo accepts.

Keep in mind they also brought in Winston who was supposed to be an all-world PG also... did he make the all-freshman B1G team?

 

[RocknRollface]

Maybe we can talk Tum-Tum Narim from
MSU to transfer over since he's arguably the fastest and maybe most athletic PG play-maker in the B1G that has yet to make all-B1G or even keep the starting job for that matter. He can break down a D and create though!

Hes actually not much for creating offense in tbe half court.

Full court hes great but the same thing kills him that did Gesell, wont shoot a jump shot, defense saggs off, game over.

 

[And1Hawk]

Hes actually not much for creating offense in tbe half court.

Full court hes great but the same thing kills him that did Gesell, wont shoot a jump shot, defense saggs off, game over.

Wait though he's an athletic PG though!

 

[RocknRollface]

Just to be clear. Your point is that anyone who watches a little basketball and isn't off their rocker knows the value of an athletic perimeter player. Right?

Big surprise but we agree. In fact, I'll go so far as that is true of ANY position on the court.

My disagreement comes when persons, obviously not you, go so far as to believe we'd be better off moving a sub-six foot facilitator who can hit the three to shooting guard. Watching a 6'6" guy like Jok try to work around the court to get open while he was grabbed, elbowed, tackled, shoved....what would happen to Bohannon?

And what's the difference if it is our point guard or a shooting guard that can penetrate? Frankly, these days it isn't all about breaking down your man, but being able to take contact and finish the shot that makes for a guy who can drive and score.

In the offense that we run, we are just fine and will win a lot of games with Bohannon at point. I'm glad you agree with that. (See your part in bold up above)

And finally, let me add and I don't know if you agree with this or not, if we continue to add players that can keep the offense moving, whether they be the point guard, or a wing or a big, if we continue to share the ball and emphasize team basketball (look at our assists to shots made) we'll be better off than having some guy who dribbles at the top of the key looking for a way to drive past his guy while everybody else stands around watching.

The counter point being Dan, that if Jok was paired with a pg who could break down the D in either iso or screen and role he would not have had to do that off the ball work.

Look at all the open shots UM gets.

Its allot easier way to play if you can do it.

The other thing is that Jok worked hard but he wasnt great at running around off the ball. He got tangled up more than anyone ive ever seen. Part of it is almost like football with the hand fighting and change of direction. I just dont think any of that appealed to him.

I think JBO could actually be more effective.

 

[ScoutRefugee]

24 & 10 in the BTT, 2 games of 7 3's, game winning shot at Wisky, all-B1G freshman team (not voted on by us) .... all for an equally limited player. Give me a few more of these guys.

I like Bohannon just fine. The argument is for a 2G that has PG skills. Skills that accent Bohannon's strengths. Bohannon lacks some ideal traits for a BIG guard. Traits that Jok shares, unfortunately. Traits that make it easy for opposing BIG guards to exploit.

 

[Fan In Black]

Just to be clear. Your point is that anyone who watches a little basketball and isn't off their rocker knows the value of an athletic perimeter player. Right?

Big surprise but we agree. In fact, I'll go so far as that is true of ANY position on the court.

My disagreement comes when persons, obviously not you, go so far as to believe we'd be better off moving a sub-six foot facilitator who can hit the three to shooting guard. Watching a 6'6" guy like Jok try to work around the court to get open while he was grabbed, elbowed, tackled, shoved....what would happen to Bohannon?

And what's the difference if it is our point guard or a shooting guard that can penetrate? Frankly, these days it isn't all about breaking down your man, but being able to take contact and finish the shot that makes for a guy who can drive and score.

In the offense that we run, we are just fine and will win a lot of games with Bohannon at point. I'm glad you agree with that. (See your part in bold up above)

And finally, let me add and I don't know if you agree with this or not, if we continue to add players that can keep the offense moving, whether they be the point guard, or a wing or a big, if we continue to share the ball and emphasize team basketball (look at our assists to shots made) we'll be better off than having some guy who dribbles at the top of the key looking for a way to drive past his guy while everybody else stands around watching.

Agreed.

 

[ScoutRefugee]

I guess we will see what next season brings when some combination of Williams/Daily/McCaffrey take Jok's minutes.

 

[DanL53]

The counter point being Dan, that if Jok was paired with a pg who could break down the D in either iso or screen and role he would not have had to do that off the ball work.

Look at all the open shots UM gets.

Its allot easier way to play if you can do it.

Michigan hits 38% of their threes, Iowa hits .371 of their threes.

 

[ZumaHawk]

To be honest......the Hawks didn't have 1 player who could break their man down and get to the rim and finish on a regular basis. But I will take JoBo every game at point. I'm thinking the bottom line is 4 freshman will get better every season and figure out a way to shut us all up!!!

 

[ScoutRefugee]

The counter point being Dan, that if Jok was paired with a pg who could break down the D in either iso or screen and role he would not have had to do that off the ball work.

Look at all the open shots UM gets.

Its allot easier way to play if you can do it.

The other thing is that Jok worked hard but he wasnt great at running around off the ball. He got tangled up more than anyone ive ever seen. Part of it is almost like football with the hand fighting and change of direction. I just dont think any of that appealed to him.

I think JBO could actually be more effective.

Dan's not going to get this point. He thinks every player on the floor should be able to do all of these things and he thinks Iowa has those players. Dan puts the D in Delusional.

 

[And1Hawk]

I like Bohannon just fine. The argument is for a 2G that has PG skills. Skills that accent Bohannon's strengths. Bohannon lacks some ideal traits for a BIG guard. Traits that Jok shares, unfortunately. Traits that make it easy for opposing BIG guards to exploit.

No doubt he's not a complete PG. Not going to be able to play lock down D and apply great ball pressure. No argument there.

What you are looking for we do not find often. I can of 3 players in the last 40 years; Lester, Armstrong & Woolridge.

I just like this kids mentality though. He's not afraid to take the big shot make or miss and is a pretty reliable FT shooter outside of 2 big misses against IL. The idea that we can put someone out on the court that can knock down the big shot at anytime even if he's 1-7 or 7-7 i want. He's too small to play off the ball much so it's going to have to be PG.

I just fail to see how the issues that kept us out of the big dance were his play entirely.

Oddest year ever
We beat the top 3 teams in the league
We beat the tourney champs in the Big12
We beat the big sky champ N Dakota (not that matters)
We won 10 league games

Yet outside looking in

 

[RocknRollface]

Michigan hits 38% of their threes, Iowa hits .371 of their threes.

Iowa had better shooters that made more difficult shots.

Im being completely serious.

Look at all the contested shots Jok hit and the ones that JBO hit from 3 feet behind the line.

Ellingson lead the league in % but we couldnt hardly get him a decent look at a shot unless it was transition or off a rebound.

 

[ScoutRefugee]

To be honest......the Hawks didn't have 1 player who could break their man down and get to the rim and finish on a regular basis. But I will take JoBo every game at point. I'm thinking the bottom line is 4 freshman will get better every season and figure out a way to shut us all up!!!

It's not the offensive end that gave us problems. The defensive breakdowns in the back court were a problem all season long.
Our adjusted defensive efficiency ranking is 192 out of 350 teams. We were 304 out of 350 teams in opponents points from 3pt range allowed. That's a huge liability in perimeter defense that's caused by lack of athleticism. Some people might blame it on lack of effort (in some cases might be right), lack of team defensive concepts, or youth. But anyone that played as a guard understands that not being able to stay in front of your man on a regular basis puts a lot of pressure on your teammates to try and help out. Which in turn creates gaps in your team defense and foul trouble on your interior players.
This game is played on BOTH ends of the floor, guys. Athletic guards make a difference on both ends.

 

[ScoutRefugee]

No doubt he's not a complete PG. Not going to be able to play lock down D and apply great ball pressure. No argument there.

What you are looking for we do not find often. I can of 3 players in the last 40 years; Lester, Armstrong & Woolridge.

I just like this kids mentality though. He's not afraid to take the big shot make or miss and is a pretty reliable FT shooter outside of 2 big misses against IL. The idea that we can put someone out on the court that can knock down the big shot at anytime even if he's 1-7 or 7-7 i want. He's too small to play off the ball much so it's going to have to be PG.

I just fail to see how the issues that kept us out of the big dance were his play entirely.

Oddest year ever
We beat the top 3 teams in the league
We beat the tourney champs in the Big12
We beat the big sky champ N Dakota (not that matters)
We won 10 league games

Yet outside looking in

Lack of being able to recruit the proper talent is a Head Coaching problem. Not mine. Fire the HC that can't recruit the proper talent.

 

[ScoutRefugee]

Iowa had better shooters that made more difficult shots.

Im being completely serious.

Look at all the contested shots Jok hit and the ones that JBO hit from 3 feet behind the line.

Ellingson lead the league in % but we couldnt hardly get him a decent look at a shot unless it was transition or off a rebound.

We are the 304 of 350 ranked defense in opponent 3 pt shots made. End of discussion. We are not athletic enough at the guard spots to keep opposing defenses from raining 3s on us. And they make a high % of them because of how poorly we play perimeter defense.

 

[ZumaHawk]

Scout....you have a good point about the defensive side no doubt. It's very difficult to have the best of both worlds. Jok couldn't keep track of his own shadow let alone play D. So, we tried to outscore the other team. If we have a GREAT defender I'm pretty sure he doesn't shoot 92% from the line. Give and take I guess until some day we get "the best of both worlds player".

 

[ScoutRefugee]

Scout....you have a good point about the defensive side no doubt. It's very difficult to have the best of both worlds. Jok couldn't keep track of his own shadow let alone play D. So, we tried to outscore the other team. If we have a GREAT defender I'm pretty sure he doesn't shoot 92% from the line. Give and take I guess until some day we get "the best of both worlds player".

We don't have to have a great defender at any one spot. You just can't afford to have several poor defenders on the floor at the same time. That's a recipe for a lot of inconsistency, no matter how much experience you have on the floor. That team won't get very far in any tournament.

 

[And1Hawk]

Lack of being able to recruit the proper talent is a Head Coaching problem. Not mine. Fire the HC that can't recruit the proper talent.

Not with you on that. If you want that there's programs that you can join that get the best players any time and just mail-in success. Duke, Kentucky, etc have room for anyone on their bandwagon. It's a group full of chest thumping coaches who cannot really win without that kind of talent but their HOFs because of the players they get.

Iowa is just not and never will be in that group. I'm fine seeing what we can do with who we can get. That's just me though.

 

[ZumaHawk]

Not with you on that. If you want that there's programs that you can join that get the best players any time and just mail-in success. Duke, Kentucky, etc have room for anyone on their bandwagon. It's a group full of chest thumping coaches who cannot really win without that kind of talent but their HOFs because of the players they get.

Iowa is just not and never will be in that group. I'm fine seeing what we can do with who we can get. That's just me though.

I agree with this. Duke had their hands full with ND last night. Coach K has the best of everything on his team. Heck.....Coach K has the best tripper in the whole NCAA!!

 

[83Hawk]

Apparently there are certain posters who think Iowa can't have both Bohannon and an athletic PG. And that anyone who says he isn't a true PG means he is a bad player. And that apparently Iowa's offense cannot be run with an athletic PG. Stuff and nonsense!

While there are exceptions, the vast majority of the most successful teams have athletic PG's.

These same posters also think Iowa has been "winning" without a true PG. What, exactly, has Iowa "won" lately? Conference championship? Big 10 tournament championship (heck....win 2 games in a BTT)? Sweet 16 in the NCAA tournament? I guess they do have a Final Four in the Nobody's Interested Tournament (don't get me wrong....I do think that is an accomplishment).