As expected
- Thread starter SandBuff
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Why only bring up Sorenson? We had 7 other wrestlers that didn't win B10 championships. Everyone of our guys gave it their all. They are not rated #1 in their weight class but you must think because they put on an Iowa singlet they should win. You can have your opinion on this but you expect too much from every Iowa wrestler. It was a fun and pretty good tournament. Too bad we got a crappy draw. That's another subject that probably can't be solved correctly.
Not saying there wasn't effort, but no urgency from Sorenson. He wrestled that second period like he was ahead. Seemed to be trying to keep it close while Retherford was running circles around him.
I didn't see Retherford running circles around him. I saw Retherford smacking him in the face non-stop.
Brandon now has a good feel for Retherford's ride. He has something to work on between now and NYC. I was impressed that he managed to escape in his first match against the guy.
This isn't an unwinnable match by any means. It's much easier said than done, but he'll need to take him down, get that escape, and not let Retherford get the legs in. If Retherford sinks in the boots, it's over. I was actually pleasantly surprised by how competitive the match was.
It's easy for us to sit behind our keyboards and claim that Sorensen "did nothing", when he just went against one of the most dominant, if not the most dominant, guys in college wrestling today. Getting to your offense against a guy that tough ain't easy.
Sorensen has had a whale of a season for a guy who apparently always "does nothing".
Brandon now has a good feel for Retherford's ride. He has something to work on between now and NYC. I was impressed that he managed to escape in his first match against the guy.
This isn't an unwinnable match by any means. It's much easier said than done, but he'll need to take him down, get that escape, and not let Retherford get the legs in. If Retherford sinks in the boots, it's over. I was actually pleasantly surprised by how competitive the match was.
It's easy for us to sit behind our keyboards and claim that Sorensen "did nothing", when he just went against one of the most dominant, if not the most dominant, guys in college wrestling today. Getting to your offense against a guy that tough ain't easy.
Sorensen has had a whale of a season for a guy who apparently always "does nothing".
Did you ever win a national or Big 10 championship? Once in a while the other person is very superior and the other person can't wave a magic wand. Ask all 200 guys who got killed by Cael. It's easy to say to attack but not always smart or doable IMO.
Sorensen's offense comes off his preferred tie and Zain simply prevented Brandon from getting to it. Not an easy task for either but Zain was better and that was that. Had Sorensen just shot and shot and shot it would have gotten ugly IMO.
Speaking of that match, I think the refs should have intervened. Another area of inconsistency. Sometimes, refs make a big deal about hands to the face, whereas sometimes they ignore it. Retherford was smacking Sorensen directly in the face -- not only up on the forehead. I've seen a number of refs stop action and instruct guys to keep any hands to the head up on the forehead and off of the face, threatening penalties if they don't stay up on the forehead. Not a peep from this ref. I'm not saying this was the difference between Sorensen winning and losing this match, but there has to be some consistency among the refs regarding hands to the head. Retherford's obviously a great wrestler, but this is wrestling -- not MMA.
Also thought Retherford got away with a lot of parallel riding with the legs in -- another failing among the refs, IMO. Sorensen got dinged for stalling while Retherford was parallel, with the legs in -- a position where the bottom man can do nothing but lie on his belly.
Again, I'm not saying Retherford didn't deserve the win, and he's clearly a great wrestler, but the refs didn't do Brandon any favors in that match, either.
Also thought Retherford got away with a lot of parallel riding with the legs in -- another failing among the refs, IMO. Sorensen got dinged for stalling while Retherford was parallel, with the legs in -- a position where the bottom man can do nothing but lie on his belly.
Again, I'm not saying Retherford didn't deserve the win, and he's clearly a great wrestler, but the refs didn't do Brandon any favors in that match, either.
Anyone that says this type of statement has obviously never wrestled a guy with Rutherford's ability. Sorenson shoots almost exclusively from an inside tie. Rutherford's hand fighting is as good as anyones in the college right now. Sorenson is strong and can get to his tie against everyone\, but he was not able to get there against Rutherford in this match.
He wasn't just going to take a bad shot and get underneath Rutherford.
Do I wish he was John Smith and Tom Brands combined and could shot low singles and hand fight with the best of them? Yes But he is what he is. One of the best guys in college with a shot he can hit on almost everyone every match. He just easily handled the tough and number 3 ranked Sueflhun the match before.
He wasn't just going to take a bad shot and get underneath Rutherford.
Do I wish he was John Smith and Tom Brands combined and could shot low singles and hand fight with the best of them? Yes But he is what he is. One of the best guys in college with a shot he can hit on almost everyone every match. He just easily handled the tough and number 3 ranked Sueflhun the match before.
I bought him up because he's capable of being a national champ and I find his situation very similar to DSJ. Both are very good wrestlers but when they wrestled elite level wrestlers they seem to be simply defensive to avoid losing by a major decision. If I remember correctly the first time DSJ wrestled David Taylor he got majored. Each subsequent time he wrestled DT, he lost a regular decision by using a purely defensive strategy. That strategy was even more apparent the year he wrestled Dake in the championship. That's not wrestling to win.
There was a lot of talk on this board about how Sorenson and Retherford were equal. I didn't see that Sunday.
I am a Sorenson fan but an even bigger Retherford fan and it could have been a great match if they would have both wrestled. I know Iowa fans have the same complaint about Mega, but I hold the Iowa wrestling program to the highest standard. They should never go out on the mat just trying get to avoid getting majored.
I'm also aware that my opinion may be very biased and uninformed. I posted because this is a fun board and I expect those two to meet in the NCAA championship and I'm hoping both attempt to score.
So if you favor Retherford, why come on here and bash Sorenson? Go celebrate with your PSU buddies and let it be.
This is my biggest complaint about our team. It seems like if we can't get "our tie" we don't have a plan B to compensate. Then it's a struggle for 7 minutes to try and win a scramble, or hope the opponent puts themselves in a bad position.
You might want to re-watch some of those matches, Sandbuff. DSJ took Taylor down and took an early lead in their Big Ten finals match in Evanston.
It's intellectually dishonest to rip on guys for "going defensive" against some of the best guys in college wrestling. David Taylor is literally one of the best college wrestlers in several decades. DSJ gave him a battle every time. It's hard as heck to score on a guy like him, and DSJ did as well as anyone outside of Dake, who also happens to be one of the best college wrestlers in decades.
Retherford is also a complete stud. It was all Brandon could do just to get to his ties. Granted, I think Retherford's hands to the face was excessive and should have been limited by the ref, but he's still one of the best hand fighters in college wrestling today. In case you haven't noticed, he's pretty much destroyed everyone he's wrestled, including some pretty tough dudes.
Sometimes, you just run into a total stud. You fight like heck and do your best. If he wins, you tip your cap and work hard to improve and hopefully get him the next time around. I have nothing but the utmost respect for Brandon Sorensen, his work ethic, and his competitive drive. Probably worth noting that his only loss on the season is to super stud Retherford. . . .
It's intellectually dishonest to rip on guys for "going defensive" against some of the best guys in college wrestling. David Taylor is literally one of the best college wrestlers in several decades. DSJ gave him a battle every time. It's hard as heck to score on a guy like him, and DSJ did as well as anyone outside of Dake, who also happens to be one of the best college wrestlers in decades.
Retherford is also a complete stud. It was all Brandon could do just to get to his ties. Granted, I think Retherford's hands to the face was excessive and should have been limited by the ref, but he's still one of the best hand fighters in college wrestling today. In case you haven't noticed, he's pretty much destroyed everyone he's wrestled, including some pretty tough dudes.
Sometimes, you just run into a total stud. You fight like heck and do your best. If he wins, you tip your cap and work hard to improve and hopefully get him the next time around. I have nothing but the utmost respect for Brandon Sorensen, his work ethic, and his competitive drive. Probably worth noting that his only loss on the season is to super stud Retherford. . . .
SandBuff,
I understand your viewpoint and appreciate it. The problem is, you don't seem to fully understand what it takes to actually score at the DI level. Handfighting and setups are more important than the actual offensive attack(for all but the few freaks of nature). This is why Tsirstis was so good prior to this year. He may have been super hard to watch, but he almost always won the handfighting which never gave his opponent the opportunity to score. If you can't get your opponent out of position, attacking them will most likely end up with THEM scoring, not you.
In the case of Sorenson vs. Retherford, Sorenson simply ran into a guy that controlled and dictated all the action on their feet. He simply NEVER allowed Sorenson an opportunity to create an attack. Sorenson is absolutely not the type of wrestler that will ever go on the mat and try to wrestle to lose close. I am 100% positive he was trying to win for all 7:00. Retherford simply never gave him a chance to do so.
Many fans want more scoring. I understand this. But, DI wrestling has evolved so much that the positioning of wrestlers(which is the fundamental building block of wrestling) is so solid that it has become extremely difficult to create offense and, as a result, very dangerous to do so.
I understand your viewpoint and appreciate it. The problem is, you don't seem to fully understand what it takes to actually score at the DI level. Handfighting and setups are more important than the actual offensive attack(for all but the few freaks of nature). This is why Tsirstis was so good prior to this year. He may have been super hard to watch, but he almost always won the handfighting which never gave his opponent the opportunity to score. If you can't get your opponent out of position, attacking them will most likely end up with THEM scoring, not you.
In the case of Sorenson vs. Retherford, Sorenson simply ran into a guy that controlled and dictated all the action on their feet. He simply NEVER allowed Sorenson an opportunity to create an attack. Sorenson is absolutely not the type of wrestler that will ever go on the mat and try to wrestle to lose close. I am 100% positive he was trying to win for all 7:00. Retherford simply never gave him a chance to do so.
Many fans want more scoring. I understand this. But, DI wrestling has evolved so much that the positioning of wrestlers(which is the fundamental building block of wrestling) is so solid that it has become extremely difficult to create offense and, as a result, very dangerous to do so.
I watched the match again last night and Retherford never moved off parallel. Never. I give him credit though, he sure appears active in that position.
Is this the sequence you are talking about (well I guess it has to be, because the only other riding sequence in the 3rd, Retherford tried to turn Sorenson in a crab, didn't quite get it and the ref quickly called a stalemate when they returned to the crab with Sorenson in ref's position.)?
Notice the time - I think I got pretty much the whole ride except the very end when the camera zoomed out:
Legs aren't in in many of these shots and if you think the top man is stalling - well...we will agree to disagree. You watched this match with two sets of glasses on - the black and the gold ones.
This isn't high school where you jump out to the side and attempt a bow cradle...
Retherford turns people easily...he pinned Pantalano in the first period...Pants is no turd. Retherford is very solid in neutral but it's his work on top that is the difference maker. It's usually a 2 point advantage right out of the gate. Only difference between Sorenson and the others is Sorenson didn't get turned which the last time I checked, is the objective when you can't get out from bottom.
To beat Retherford, one is going to have to slow the match down and don't end up on bottom. Easier said than done.
To beat Retherford, one is going to have to slow the match down and don't end up on bottom. Easier said than done.
Riding parallel is riding parallel with or without the legs. PSU gets away with a lot of stall tactics on top. Guilibon, and McC's main rides are just hooking the ankle with their feet and sitting on it. Textbook stalling and is never called anymore.
I believe that PSU gets away with these tactics because as a whole they do turn guys from the top more than other teams.
I believe that PSU gets away with these tactics because as a whole they do turn guys from the top more than other teams.
It looked to me like Sorenson was trying to get to his offense but just never got past the head/hands.
This x1000. I love it when fans act like it's a wrestlers choice not to score or to "be defensive". It's a hard f-ing sport!!! You can't shoot if you can't get to your setups and positioning through hand fighting. Retherford is one of the best hand fighters in the sport and he didn't allow Sorenson to get to where he wanted to be. Now that Sorenson has wrestled him, he'll try to adjust. But I cannot stand the guy behind the keyboard making comments like that because it shows you're clueless about what it takes to score and be successful at that level. It's the reason most college guys get overwhelmed when they first start wrestling at the senior level internationally. Hand fighting is elite and the veterans have mastered hand fighting to create scoring opportunities. The college guys get beat up hand fighting and can never find their offense. Once they've been in it for a bit they always get better but at first, it's a struggle.
Oh seriously. PSU is the most wide open offensive team in the country. Being able to stymy a good wrestler is good wrestling.
By the way, Megaludis has bonus victories in 62% of matches wrestled this year. By comparison, Joey Dance is at 38%. But don't let facts get in the way of a good opinion.
Tyson should have punched Holyfield more. If he did, he would have won those fights.
Nolan Ryan never would have thrown all of those no hitters if the batters had just waited for a good pitch and made contact.
No, I didn't win Big 10s or NCAAs and neither did Ryan Morningstar or Ben Berhow. That seems like a pretty lofty standard for someone to have to meet in order to have an opinion on that wrestling match. Hell, I bet there are dozens of posters on here that didn't even make the finals of those tournaments much less win them. But, since the majority of you sound pleased with the result to the point of ridiculing anyone who hoped for more output out of our guy I will defer to you.
Just for argument then, you probably was disappointed in David Taylor when Dake bet the hell out of him in the finals for his 4th title. I can't believe he couldn't escape when he was down. I guess you were very disappointed in him for not trying harder. Sometimes you're not at your best.
That's a red herring, I never said that every time someone loses it's because there was a lack of effort. In fact I didn't say that was the case here. Of course many times, if not most times, one guy is "just better" and there is not a whole lot that can be done to change the outcome. I didn't think BS vs. Zain fell into that category though. Maybe it did and if so then everyone should be able to live with that.
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