Call Me 'Ze,' not 'He': Please Use 'Gender Inclusive' Pronouns

[Hoosierhawkeye]

So you would prefer she comes and pees next to you at a urinal rather than go to an enclosed stall next to your wife or daughter? You would do a quick scan of the jawline and know she's a dude and wouldn't be at taken aback by it?

I'd be taken aback by it but if he's using a urinal I'm pretty sure it would be pretty clear that it's a man.

And actually if you ask and they clarify that they are actually a man, or if they prefer to say "I was born male" it's usually clear from the voice.

 

[BABiscuit]

I'd be taken aback by it but if he's using a urinal I'm pretty sure it would be pretty clear that it's a man.

And actually if you ask and they clarify that they are actually a man, or if they prefer to say "I was born male" it's usually clear from the voice.

Have you ever asked a person to clarify?

 

[naturalmwa]

Because it's a simple insult to basically make people quit thinking. Oh this is a extremely hateful person so you can't listen to them when they have perfectly logical reasons why they oppose this.

I don't know. Transphobic isn't the sort of jab that just rolls off the tongue like calling someone a jerk. It describes a person who is antagonistic or uncomfortable with transsexuals. That would seem to fit you to a T. If you think your reasons are logical, you haven't presented them that way here. So far your reasons come down to you are uncomfortable with the idea some stranger might see your penis. The logistics of your concerns are sort of fun to ponder, but hardly logical.

 

[fredjr82]

Because it makes actual women feel uncomfortable for a very legit reason.

Can you provide a link that proves this? I understand that you, your wife, your daughter, and maybe some female acquaintances have expressed this to you in the past but that doesn't mean ALL women feel the same. I'd be curious to see the data on the claim that you're making.

 

[fredjr82]

I'd be taken aback by it but if he's using a urinal I'm pretty sure it would be pretty clear that it's a man.

Woman

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

Can you provide a link that proves this? I understand that you, your wife, your daughter, and maybe some female acquaintances have expressed this to you in the past but that doesn't mean ALL women feel the same. I'd be curious to see the data on the claim that you're making.

A lot of women do. I don't have studies as to how many. I do know one woman had her membership from a health club revoked because she merely expressed that the was uncomfortable with a man in her locker-room.

 

[tarheelbybirth]

So, all the Libs in this thread support this new "Common Core" source of composition?

Tell me I'm wrong. Some lib please come out against this ridiculousness.

Against the zim, ze, etc stupidty? Dumb as hell.

How's that?

 

[tarheelbybirth]

Because it makes actual women feel uncomfortable for a very legit reason.

How. Would. They. Know?

Do the women in your life peek under the stalls to check out genitalia?

 

[fredjr82]

A lot of women do. I don't have studies as to how many. I do know one woman had her membership from a health club revoked because she merely expressed that the was uncomfortable with a man in her locker-room.

I hate to break it to you Hoosier, but you don't get a lot of traction with urban legends about this woman or that woman. You actually need to provide data that supports your argument. I can understand that a lot people in your "circle" of acquaintances are uncomfortable with it, but a lot of acquaintances in natural's "circle" probably aren't. Why does your "circle" automatically get to determine the restroom procedure of those people?

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

I don't know. Transphobic isn't the sort of jab that just rolls off the tongue like calling someone a jerk. It describes a person who is antagonistic or uncomfortable with transsexuals. That would seem to fit you to a T. If you think your reasons are logical, you haven't presented them that way here. So far your reasons come down to you are uncomfortable with the idea some stranger might see your penis. The logistics of your concerns are sort of fun to ponder, but hardly logical.

You could use the same answer as to why we have gendered restrooms in the first place. We have gendered restrooms so that people will be more comfortable.

If that is meaningless then we should just do away with gendered restrooms right?

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

I hate to break it to you Hoosier, but you don't get a lot of traction with urban legends about this woman or that woman. You actually need to provide data that supports your argument. I can understand that a lot people in your "circle" of acquaintances are uncomfortable with it, but a lot of acquaintances in natural's "circle" probably aren't. Why does your "circle" automatically get to determine the restroom procedure of those people?

http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/07/living/feat-planet-fitness-transgender-member/

I guess she did more then complain to management. However it applies.

At the end they said that the transgender people get to use whatever restroom makes THEM comfortable. Who cares about the other member's comfort I guess.

 

[tarheelbybirth]

http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/07/living/feat-planet-fitness-transgender-member/

I guess she did more then complain to management. However it applies.

At the end they said that the transgender people get to use whatever restroom makes THEM comfortable. Who cares about the other member's comfort I guess.

So...she doesn't even know if it was a man...just a masculine looking person?

 

[fredjr82]

http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/07/living/feat-planet-fitness-transgender-member/

I guess she did more then complain to management. However it applies.

Thanks for the link. So she wasn't removed for informing them that she's uncomfortable but for how she spent the following week telling everyone how they let a man in the women's changing room. The article didn't say that any other member felt uncomfortable about the man being in there and no other memberships where cancelled. Why do you think that is? Sounds like it was the correct decision to cancel her membership. She can take her business elsewhere. Somewhere that she feels comfortable.

This article just helps my point that you, your circle, and this woman are unfortunately in the minority. So you can either choose to go somewhere else, stay inside your house 24 hours a day, or worry about yourself and not so much about others.

 

[fredjr82]

So...she doesn't even know if it was a man...just a masculine looking person?

Well Hoosier would throw Caitlyn Jenner out of the women's restroom because she has a "masculine jawline". Just saying.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

So...she doesn't even know if it was a man...just a masculine looking person?

In another article she says "it was a man for sure"

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/planet...rship-transgender-complaint/story?id=29465983

What is sickening is a woman goes to management and says there is a person who looks like a man in the women's locker room and the response she gets is not sending a staff member in there to find out what's going on but instead that their gym allows members to use whatever locker room they feel matches their gender identity.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

Well Hoosier would throw Caitlyn Jenner out of the women's restroom because she has a "masculine jawline". Just saying.

And a penis.

I could ALMOST maybe be ok with it if they had surgically changed their genitals. Even then I don't like it but at least one could qualify that if they had surgically change their genitals it's not a simple thing of suddenly feeling like a woman when he wanted to see some boobies.

But Caitlyn has a penis. He's a man who threw on a dress and put on some makeup.

That's like saying getting an Afro and parading around in black face can make one African American.

 

[tarheelbybirth]

In another article she says "it was a man for sure.

Again, because the person "looked like" a man. She never saw anything that would confirm her opinion. According to the story, it appears she was never even in the locker room with the person in question.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

Again, because the person "looked like" a man. She never saw anything that would confirm her opinion. According to the story, it appears she was never even in the locker room with the person in question.

So if I see something that looks like domestic assault I should just ignore it right? Or something that looks like child abuse. . . Just ignore it.

The proper thing to do when you hear about someone who looks like a man in the women's restroom is to send someone to look into it. Yes maybe it is mistaken identity, Maybe it really is a woman. But you won't know if you don't look into it.

But basically she was told that it was her gym's official policy not to care.

Honestly sometimes I wish I was more of a rock the boat person. Because I don't see why I couldn't join, start using the women's locker room. That would make for an interesting book. Pretty sure my wife wouldn't be on board with that sort of thing.

 

[tarheelbybirth]

So if I see something that looks like domestic assault I should just ignore it right? Or something that looks like child abuse. . . Just ignore it.

You honestly don't see the difference, do you? To you, those are the same as seeing someone who looks manly going into the women's locker room. Amazing.

Did this person DO anything? Anything at all that would cause concern? Try to answer that question. Then see if you can figure out why your analogies are idiotic.

 

[fredjr82]

And a penis

How do you know he/she has a penis? Unless you are looking you wouldn't know. If you saw Caitlyn Jenner walking down the street with no prior knowledge of who he/she was would you assume she has a penis? How are you policing this?

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

You honestly don't see the difference, do you? To you, those are the same as seeing someone who looks manly going into the women's locker room. Amazing.

Did this person DO anything? Anything at all that would cause concern? Try to answer that question. Then see if you can figure out why your analogies are idiotic.

Yeah presuming it's a man, he went in the women's locker room.

Now if that doesn't concern you then we might as well just make everything 1 big restroom for both men and women and 1 big locker room too. Might as well just be like Starship Troopers movie in that regard. Guess they could shower together too.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

How do you know he/she has a penis? Unless you are looking you wouldn't know. If you saw Caitlyn Jenner walking down the street with no prior knowledge of who he/she was would you assume she has a penis? How are you policing this?

But we know Mr. Jenner has a penis because it's been reported that HE is keeping HIS penis.

I don't care if he's just walking down the street. Going into restrooms I think it makes a huge difference.

When my daughter gets a little older at around 2 or so, I'm not going to be changing in front of her. I don't want her to see me naked if avoidable. My wife does the same thing with our son, tries to avoid him seeing her naked. (He just turned 2.) I forget the gender of your children but do you have them seeing the opposite sex parent naked? If not now will you in the future?

If you want to avoid your children seeing their parents naked why in the world would we want them to go to the bathroom when they are 8 years old and see some other adult there with the opposite sex parts?

 

[fredjr82]

When my daughter gets a little older at around 2 or so, I'm not going to be changing in front of her. I don't want her to see me naked if avoidable. My wife does the same thing with our son, tries to avoid him seeing her naked. (He just turned 2.) I forget the gender of your children but do you have them seeing the opposite sex parent naked? If not now will you in the future?

If you want to avoid your children seeing their parents naked why in the world would we want them to go to the bathroom when they are 8 years old and see some other adult there with the opposite sex parts?

 

[fredjr82]

But we know Mr. Jenner has a penis because it's been reported that HE is keeping HIS penis.

It's a hypothetical question Hoosier. Pretend you don't know who she is. Pretend she is just someone who showed up at your church and asked to use the restroom. How are you policing her not using the women's restroom?

The only way I see it happening (in this hypothetical experiment) is that you stop Caitlyn and inform her that she has manly features and your suspicious that she may have a penis. You'd like to check before she uses the restroom. Other than you knowing she has a penis because she is an attention whore is irrelevant for the conversation.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

It's a hypothetical question Hoosier. Pretend you don't know who she is. Pretend she is just someone who showed up at your church and asked to use the restroom. How are you policing her not using the women's restroom?

The only way I see it happening (in this hypothetical experiment) is that you stop Caitlyn and inform her that she has manly features and your suspicious that she may have a penis. You'd like to check before she uses the restroom. Other than you knowing she has a penis because she is an attention whore is irrelevant for the conversation.

Quite frankly if you listen to him talk and don't come to the conclusion that is man then you'd have to be flat out deaf.

The question could be quite frankly asked.

I suppose you are right in the sense that overall it would be difficult to be absolutely certain that the right people are using the right restrooms. However I do think it's important that as a policy people should go to the restroom of the gender they where born with.

 

[fredjr82]

I forget the gender of your children but do you have them seeing the opposite sex parent naked? If not now will you in the future?

I have one boy and two girls. 3 year old twins and a 9 month old. Yes on occasion they will see myself or my wife naked. I'm curious, because in my household my kids are old enough to get undressed for the bath themselves. So normally why my wife and I are finishing up supper/dishes we'll have a naked 3 year old running around the house getting ready for a bath. Do you restrict your children from getting undressed anywhere but the bathroom in your house? What if your two year old needs a diaper change? Can it only be done behind close doors so your daughter doesn't see his penis and start asking you tough questions?

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

I have one boy and two girls. 3 year old twins and a 9 month old. Yes on occasion they will see myself or my wife naked. I'm curious, because in my household my kids are old enough to get undressed for the bath themselves. So normally why my wife and I are finishing up supper/dishes we'll have a naked 3 year old running around the house getting ready for a bath. Do you restrict your children from getting undressed anywhere but the bathroom in your house? What if your two year old needs a diaper change? Can it only be done behind close doors so your daughter doesn't see his penis and start asking you tough questions?

I think you mixed up the two, my son is 2, my daughter 9 months. But I see the difference between a baby and an adult. We take babies into opposite sex public restrooms all of the time.

 

[fredjr82]

Quite frankly if you listen to him talk and don't come to the conclusion that is man then you'd have to be flat out deaf.

You have a lot of conversations with people before you head into the bathroom? Are you asking to hear their voice before they walk into the restroom? In my opinion that is 10x creepier than Caitlyn Jenner taking a leak in a private stall of a women's restroom.

Just admit that you can't police the situation. Word of advice, you probably aren't going to be very effective in shielding your kids or your spouse from all the "evils" in this world.

 

[fredjr82]

I think you mixed up the two, my son is 2, my daughter 9 months. But I see the difference between a baby and an adult. We take babies into opposite sex public restrooms all of the time.

So now that your son is two. Who takes him to the restroom if he has to go? I assume you since he is a male. But what happens when your wife is the only one there? He just has to go in his pants? What happens if he sees another adult in the women's restroom? Do you call in the restroom to make sure nobody is in there?

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

So now that your son is two. Who takes him to the restroom if he has to go? I assume you since he is a male. But what happens when your wife is the only one there? He just has to go in his pants? What happens if he sees another adult in the women's restroom? Do you call in the restroom to make sure nobody is in there?

Not potty trained yet. Generally I change him. I suppose if my wife where out with him alone she would, but she doesn't take him out very often alone save for doctor's appointments.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

You have a lot of conversations with people before you head into the bathroom? Are you asking to hear their voice before they walk into the restroom? In my opinion that is 10x creepier than Caitlyn Jenner taking a leak in a private stall of a women's restroom.

Just admit that you can't police the situation. Word of advice, you probably aren't going to be very effective in shielding your kids or your spouse from all the "evils" in this world.

Fair enough you can't police the situation. But the rules should not be that anyone can go to any restroom. If a person is obviously a man in the women's restroom, they should be asked to leave.

 

[fredjr82]

Not potty trained yet. Generally I change him. I suppose if my wife where out with him alone she would, but she doesn't take him out very often alone save for doctor's appointments.

Do you normally change him because you don't think your wife should be seeing his penis? Serious question. I assume she does most of the changing for the daughter for the same reason.

 

[fredjr82]

Fair enough you can't police the situation. But the rules should not be that anyone can go to any restroom. If a person is obviously a man in the women's restroom, they should be asked to leave.

The rules don't allow someone like The Rock from using the women's restroom because by society's standards he looks like a man and I assume most would ask him to leave. What the rules don't allow for is interrogation of an individual because they look "more masculine/feminine" than what society thinks is ideal.

 

[naturalmwa]

You could use the same answer as to why we have gendered restrooms in the first place. We have gendered restrooms so that people will be more comfortable.

If that is meaningless then we should just do away with gendered restrooms right?

Maybe. I don't really know the history on gendered restrooms. Is it just about comfort or does safety and differing amenities play a role? Are you suggesting we fund trans restrooms as a solution? I think my solution is a bit more workable. I think gender neutral restrooms would be acceptable. I think special trans restrooms are a bit overboard. But the real take away from this discussion seems to be that toilet talk is about the only objection to transsexuals. I can find hope in that. .

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

Do you normally change him because you don't think your wife should be seeing his penis? Serious question. I assume she does most of the changing for the daughter for the same reason.

No children and babies are different from adults.

 

[fredjr82]

I suppose if my wife where out with him alone she would

No children and babies are different from adults.

I'm confused now. Does your wife change your son when he has a dirty diaper? If not, why? From the sounds of your post she will if she absolutely has too, but usually defers to you. Why does she not just change her son's diaper if it needs changed?

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

Maybe. I don't really know the history on gendered restrooms. Is it just about comfort or does safety and differing amenities play a role? Are you suggesting we fund trans restrooms as a solution? I think my solution is a bit more workable. I think gender neutral restrooms would be acceptable. I think special trans restrooms are a bit overboard. But the real take away from this discussion seems to be that toilet talk is about the only objection to transsexuals. I can find hope in that. .

I'd prefer special trans rooms but it won't work because it would require every public building be re-configured at a great cost. That's not likely to happen. Especially when the transexual population at this time is rather low.

The other issue is sports if they play them. Outside of those two I can't think of any. It's up to oneself what they look and act like. But to me the gender you are born with is just a reality of who you are, you can't change it so you need to work within it.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

I'm confused now. Does your wife change your son when he has a dirty diaper? If not, why? From the sounds of your post she will if she absolutely has too, but usually defers to you. Why does she not just change her son's diaper if it needs changed?

At home it's whoever is available. In public I generally take him into the men's restroom if I can and they have a changing table. If it's just her with him then she would take him into the women's restroom and she would also do this if the men's restroom has no changing table.

 

[22*43*51]

I'm just excited to start using women's restrooms.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

The rules don't allow someone like The Rock from using the women's restroom because by society's standards he looks like a man and I assume most would ask him to leave. What the rules don't allow for is interrogation of an individual because they look "more masculine/feminine" than what society thinks is ideal.

But that gym's policies actually say that if the Rock personally identifies as a woman then he can head on into the women's locker room. It gives no qualifiers.

I think that's a problem.