Capitalists feed you, pay you, and care for you

[MemorialRedWarrior]

"The Internet" doesn't agree with you on this. Ask DARPA.

Government funding is by its nature inefficient. Often its just an excuse to make money for its participants. Due the government bureaucracy, forms processing, using designated procedures, adhering to the chain of command and a myriad of other features, government research is not the way to go. The one advantage of government doing the research is that often they don't run out of money, but that can also be a problem with too much money and not enough conscientiousness.

Private funding is better because there is always an incentive to succeed that is often absent in government researchers. When private industry succeeds, its called profit, when government researchers succeed, they need to look for a new job. More efficiency in processes often puts private industry in a position to succeed too. A problem with private funding thought is that the funding can run out.

And. the best option is when you take the funding from the government to assist private firms in research. In this case it can be a win-win situation if the government is prudent is selecting organization to do the research.

 

[MemorialRedWarrior]

I have not argued that. I have simply stated that 'capitalism' is not the solution to everything, and it not responsible for all of the societal benefits you have. Government has a substantial role in creating the appropriate environment for capitalism to function accordingly. Without governments and regulations, you would not have clean water or sewer systems.

Without the US government and DARPA, we would not even have the Internet - capitalists DID NOT create it, nor did they develop the concept. Government did.

Capitalism has both benefited greatly from the internet, and has greatly benefitted the internet; it has built upon the platform and developed things no government would have ever conceived of. It absolutely breeds innovation; but it really sucks at most projects with very long-term ROI, or very early stage science/R&D.

Capitalism most assuredly had just as big a hand in moving forward the information technology progress we have seen. The theories and practices that are used today were developed by men that did the research and work before the government got involved. Once the research was out there, then you saw government involvement.
The most powerful and successful providers of information technology are all private based, with contracts with the government. The development of todays current technology comes from companies such as Apple, Cisco, Microsoft, etc.
Government helps in the funding of this, and in almost every single way, they themselves do little more. They piggy back off the work of the private sector, and enjoy the fruits of its labor.

 

[Joes Place]

Capitalism most assuredly had just as big a hand in moving forward the information technology progress we have seen. The theories and practices that are used today were developed by men that did the research and work before the government got involved. Once the research was out there, then you saw government involvement.
The most powerful and successful providers of information technology are all private based, with contracts with the government. The development of todays current technology comes from companies such as Apple, Cisco, Microsoft, etc.
Government helps in the funding of this, and in almost every single way, they themselves do little more. They piggy back off the work of the private sector, and enjoy the fruits of its labor.

Wow. You're one of the most misinformed people on the boards here. MOST of the technologies used by Apple, Cisco, etc. were ORIGINATED in federally funded labs. Hell....NONE of those technologies would even EXIST if not for things like 'quantum theory'. Show me where any 'private entity' developed quantum theory....

The private sector is ultimately VERY efficient for market-based approaches, where ROI is in the neighborhood of a few quarters, to a few years. Anything beyond that, including basic research where ROI can be decades off, is rarely, if ever, handled by 'capitalists'.

The OPs assertion that 'capitalism does everything' for you is grossly misinformed, as are you.

 

[MemorialRedWarrior]

Wow. You're one of the most misinformed people on the boards here. MOST of the technologies used by Apple, Cisco, etc. were ORIGINATED in federally funded labs. Hell....NONE of those technologies would even EXIST if not for things like 'quantum theory'. Show me where any 'private entity' developed quantum theory....

The private sector is ultimately VERY efficient for market-based approaches, where ROI is in the neighborhood of a few quarters, to a few years. Anything beyond that, including basic research where ROI can be decades off, is rarely, if ever, handled by 'capitalists'.

The OPs assertion that 'capitalism does everything' for you is grossly misinformed, as are you.

Federally funded labs, that were put into use and budget approval AFTER the research and theories had been found and worked. If Capitalism does in fact have a hand in everything that we see, do, or work with. It therefore does in fact do everything for us.
Government isn't just sitting around researching new things, and spending it's money on doing so, before first having monitored and surveyed through private development as to whether it's worth backing.
Cisco started off at Stanford, a private research university, and though it may have had Federal funding helping out, I cannot verify nor disprove that through my lack of google skills.
Apple has a very similar background in which you can watch for a few bucks once the movie comes out. I'm sure it will be completely accurate and with no factual errors whatsoever.
Private research usually leads to government interest, followed by funding, followed by Capitalistic deployment to the masses.

 

[Joes Place]

Federally funded labs, that were put into use and budget approval AFTER the research and theories had been found and worked.

LMAO!!!
No, spud. They are the ones DEVELOPING and VERIFYING the theories.

Capitalists put those results to work in the marketplace AFTER someone else proves it's feasible.
'Private research' is a drop in the bucket compared to government-backed or government-conducted work.

What grade are you still in?

 

[MemorialRedWarrior]

LMAO!!!
No, spud. They are the ones DEVELOPING and VERIFYING the theories.

Capitalists put those results to work in the marketplace AFTER someone else proves it's feasible.
'Private research' is a drop in the bucket compared to government-backed or government-conducted work.

What grade are you still in?

You're getting angry I see. Perhaps you should sit back and take a break.

 

[Joes Place]

You're getting angry I see. Perhaps you should sit back and take a break.

Translation: I am incapable of looking up 'DARPA' and 'Internet' on Google to find out that the Internet was actually 'invented' by the government, not Apple, not Cisco, not Intel, not Microsoft.

 

[HawktimusPrime]

LMAO!!!
No, spud. They are the ones DEVELOPING and VERIFYING the theories.

Capitalists put those results to work in the marketplace AFTER someone else proves it's feasible.
'Private research' is a drop in the bucket compared to government-backed or government-conducted work.

What grade are you still in?

If I may barge in here, as this was originally my thread....I have to say,...You're an idiot Joe. First off, not all government grants, go to Federal workers, but to outside contractors, or consultants or private employees in most situations. Where exactly are all these scientists, engineers, coming from you dolt cake butt bomb?

First off, WHO in the military is doing this? Tell me whom, and whether they were contracted out, or actually within the Federal employee structure. Do that, and we will continue this. Sorry, but you've pooped your idiocy all over this thread long enough. Daddy is home, and daddy is going to spank little Joey soon.

 

[HawktimusPrime]

Translation: I am incapable of looking up 'DARPA' and 'Internet' on Google to find out that the Internet was actually 'invented' by the government, not Apple, not Cisco, not Intel, not Microsoft.

WRONG. You're digging yourself into a hole here Joe. I'll let mem warrior answer first, but I'll clarify soon enough if needed.

 

[MemorialRedWarrior]

Translation: I am incapable of looking up 'DARPA' and 'Internet' on Google to find out that the Internet was actually 'invented' by the government, not Apple, not Cisco, not Intel, not Microsoft.

DARPA was created for the advocation of government funding. I will let you explain further, so we can come to a mutual understanding here.

 

[HawktimusPrime]

"The Internet" doesn't agree with you on this. Ask DARPA.

I don't need to ask DARPA, I'm a Network engineer very well versed in how the good ol' internet works there buddy. I know things about IPSEC, SSL, VPN, all those fun acronyms in which you are claiming to be so well versed on.
Without cooperation through private research and business, DARPA wouldn't have done a damn thing. DARPAS main purpose was space exploration and military weapons development. You're aware of that correct,, eh there boy? Everything it stood for was pumping with a heart for military enhancement and to keep the US ahead of the curve.

Are you taking this all from that quote in Iron Man from Tony Stark?

 

[Joes Place]

WRONG. You're digging yourself into a hole here Joe. I'll let mem warrior answer first, but I'll clarify soon enough if needed.

Well....he failed. So, go ahead and shoot for 0/2.

Here are some followups:

• Identify which company 'invented and created' the Internet.
• Identify which company 'developed and invented' the maser, proving the theoretical foundation leading to the laser.
• Identify which company developed the very first electronic computer, ENIAC.
• Identify which company designed, developed and launched the first satellites into space, used for billions of communications and TV transmissions today.
• Identify which company pipes clean water to your faucets every day.

No doubt, capitalists ARE using ALL of those technologies today, and far more effectively than ANY government would be capable of. But NONE of those technologies arose from a private enterprise company. Zero.

Keep up with your pipe dream that 'capitalism does EVERYTHING'. Most educated people on this board can see you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[Joes Place]

I don't need to ask DARPA, I'm a Network engineer very well versed in how the good ol' internet works there buddy.

I didn't ask you 'how it works'. I asked 'who first developed the concept'.
Who initiated it? Which 'company'?

 

[naturalmwa]

I don't need to ask DARPA, I'm a Network engineer very well versed in how the good ol' internet works there buddy.

Your posting history doesn't back this up. You got schooled regularly in those net neutrality debates. But it's possible you learned something in which case you should thank HROT for being well versed.

 

[Joes Place]

Your posting history doesn't back this up. You got schooled regularly in those net neutrality debates. But it's possible you learned something in which case you should thank HROT for being well versed.

LMAO!!!

Probably 'set up Wifi' in his parent's basement. He's the little 'Household Internet Expert' and Mommy's Little Helper!!!

 

[HawktimusPrime]

Your posting history doesn't back this up. You got schooled regularly in those net neutrality debates. But it's possible you learned something in which case you should thank HROT for being well versed.

No I did not, and that is a fib on your part Natural. I was the teacher buddy. Anytime I challenged Bladel to talk shop with me, he refused to do it.

My argument was always based on one statement. Show me where the problems are in the internet access of today? Tell me what it is that you can't do, besides the very obvious. If you can't tell me that, then don't tell me we need more oversight.

 

[HawktimusPrime]

LMAO!!!

Probably 'set up Wifi' in his parent's basement. He's the little 'Household Internet Expert' and Mommy's Little Helper!!!

Or I could be in charge of the networking operations, connecting multiple networks through secure VPN tunnels, via multiple types of VPN devices, spanning multiple offices across the globe. Including several offices in the US, and reaching out as far as Abu Dhabi, Beijiing, Helbronn, Moscow, Netherlands, etc.

Not that I like to brag.

 

[naturalmwa]

No I did not, and that is a fib on your part Natural. I was the teacher buddy. Anytime I challenged Bladel to talk shop with me, he refused to do it.

My argument was always based on one statement. Show me where the problems are in the internet access of today? Tell me what it is that you can't do, besides the very obvious. If you can't tell me that, then don't tell me we need more oversight.

Actually that was your fall back position. Who's fibbing now? At first you didn't even understand what net neutrality was and compleatly misrepresented the issue. After getting schooled you retreated to this argument which is in effect simply a position that NN was too proactive and responsible a move that headed off future abuse potential, but wasn't needed to deal with the present environment. It was pretty much a complete capitulation on your part, even here today. But that's to your credit, it shows you learned something. Consider yourself versed, which means something completely fun in my vernacular.

 

[HawktimusPrime]

Actually that was your fall back position. Who's fibbing now? At first you didn't even understand what net neutrality was and compleatly misrepresented the issue. After getting schooled you retreated to this argument which is in effect simply a position that NN was too proactive and responsible a move that headed off future abuse potential, but wasn't needed to deal with the present environment. It was pretty much a complete capitulation on your part, even here today. But that's to your credit, it shows you learned something. Consider yourself versed, which means something completely fun in my vernacular.

No that's not what happened. What happened was that, I argued that NN is was already in place, and that what was really being pushed for was enforcement, by the false premise, of providing NN.

 

[HawktimusPrime]

I didn't ask you 'how it works'. I asked 'who first developed the concept'.
Who initiated it? Which 'company'?

You're speaking of ARPANET? Then tell me whom they consulted to develop, and whether that mans company was also already doing the same thing that they asked him to do for them?

 

[naturalmwa]

No that's not what happened. What happened was that, I argued that NN is was already in place, and that what was really being pushed for was enforcement, by the false premise, of providing NN.

I recognize pride when I see it. You keep your chin up and assume your defence of NN now. We welcome your versed ass to the party even if you are a bit late.

 

[HawktimusPrime]

I recognize pride when I see it. You keep your chin up and assume your defence of NN now. We welcome your versed ass to the party even if you are a bit late.

You spelled defense wrong, but I won't hold you to that easy enough error.

 

[naturalmwa]

You spelled defense wrong, but I won't hold you to that easy enough error.

It wouldn't do you any good, I'm an internationalist with a crappy spell check on my iPad2.

 

[Joes Place]

Actually that was your fall back position. Who's fibbing now? At first you didn't even understand what net neutrality was and compleatly misrepresented the issue. After getting schooled you retreated to this argument which is in effect simply a position that NN was too proactive and responsible a move that headed off future abuse potential, but wasn't needed to deal with the present environment. It was pretty much a complete capitulation on your part, even here today. But that's to your credit, it shows you learned something. Consider yourself versed, which means something completely fun in my vernacular.

LOLz!!!

 

[joelbc1]

Socialists want you to pay twice for the very same thing. Whichever you wish, what do you do?

How can a rational discussion between two intelligent human beings even be possible? Two semi-intelligent people? This is third grader sword fightin' (pissing in the urinal) stuff.

 

[Joes Place]

Still awaiting the answers here:

• Identify which company 'invented and created' the Internet.
• Identify which company 'developed and invented' the maser, proving the theoretical foundation leading to the laser.
• Identify which company developed the very first electronic computer, ENIAC.
• Identify which company designed, developed and launched the first satellites into space, used for billions of communications and TV transmissions today.
• Identify which company pipes clean water to your faucets every day.

Here's some extra credit:

• Identify which company set up the GPS system, used by apps and private enterprise around the world.
• Identify which company maintains the 'space' and 'control' systems of the GPS system.
• Identify which poster has been completely PWNED in this thread, mistakenly and ignorantly claiming 'capitalism does everything' for you

 

[nck24]

Still awaiting the answers here:

• Identify which company 'invented and created' the Internet.
• Identify which company 'developed and invented' the maser, proving the theoretical foundation leading to the laser.
• Identify which company developed the very first electronic computer, ENIAC.
• Identify which company designed, developed and launched the first satellites into space, used for billions of communications and TV transmissions today.
• Identify which company pipes clean water to your faucets every day.

Here's some extra credit:

• Identify which company set up the GPS system, used by apps and private enterprise around the world.
• Identify which company maintains the 'space' and 'control' systems of the GPS system.
• Identify which poster has been completely PWNED in this thread, mistakenly and ignorantly claiming 'capitalism does everything' for you

[/QUOTE

None of which would be possible without parts and supplies produced by capitalists.

 

[Joes Place]

None of which would be possible without parts and supplies produced by capitalists.

....which is completely irrelevant to the premise that 'capitalists do everything for you'.

Q.E.D.

 

[naturalmwa]

Like Apollo taught us, everything has a place and all in moderation. We need both capitalism and socialism. Everyone loves and benefits from them both.

 

[nck24]

Like Apollo taught us, everything has a place and all in moderation. We need both capitalism and socialism. Everyone loves and benefits from them both.

Exactly. Government is willing and able to fund projects that capitalists wont, and then hires capitalists to execute and supply said project. Everybody wins.

 

[Joes Place]

Exactly. Government is willing and able to fund projects that capitalists wont

Exactly my point. But more specifically, government defines and specifies projects no capitalist organization will bother to take on, then farms out elements of the projects to private enterprise.

Our society relies heavily on capitalism; but it relies just as heavily on entities and infrastructure which is not based on capitalism at all.

Oh, and if you buy anything from WalMart (or any Halloween decor/costumes this year), you're probably NOT relying on just 'capitalists', you're buying things made by communists and oligarchies. The American capitalists just import and ship it to you....

 

[Titanhawk2]

You are still completely missing the point. How would this have been done by those 'capitalists' WITHOUT a federal mandate and underlying funding to get it done? Who would have raised the capital to fund it? Which of the 'contracted capitalists' proposed doing this?

Answer: NONE of them.

Same for the Internet.
Same for the Apollo missions and the space program. Hell....we wouldn't have satellites for communication, DirectTV, etc. today without the federally funded/backed efforts of NASA and the space program.

Capitalists BUILD upon larger frameworks put down by the government. They do not INITIATE many (if ANY) of those activites, because the payouts are too far off, and are too risky. Not sure why this is so difficult to understand, but if your brainpower is limited to spoon-fed information from conservative news blogs and programs, I can certainly the issue here...

Government mandate - fine. It didn't get done by government workers. WPA didn't build the interstates. Internet? So today you're communicating via the 16 or so college/government computers that were the birth of the internet? The internet as it is today is the result of business doing their things.
Apollo - I think you're going way past your original argument, which WAS NOT that business benefits from some things the government has accomplished, which it does. Apollo was not done so we could all watch TV, use Velcro or drink Tang. Your original point would have said that was so.

 

[Joes Place]

Government mandate - fine. It didn't get done by government workers. WPA didn't build the interstates.

Then, you admit that 'capitalists' would NOT have built the interstates WITHOUT the government setting up the plan/outline for the project, correct? That's my point. Capitalists DIDN'T raise the funds, nor did they map out the plan for the interstate system. Government did all that heavy lifting.

Internet? So today you're communicating via the 16 or so college/government computers that were the birth of the internet? The internet as it is today is the result of business doing their things.

The internet has been built upon by private enterprise; it would simply not exist if not for a government project and government laying the foundation. Period. That's not 'capitalists', that's government doing what it can do well: lay down a foundation to facilitate capitalism and further private investment. But 'capitalists' did NOT raise the money for the internet, they did not develop the initial protocols and they did not provide any of the framework. They do now, only because they have much shorter ROI and clearer pathways to profitability - those were not evident at the inception of the internet, and thus private enterprise was uninvolved.

Apollo - I think you're going way past your original argument, which WAS NOT that business benefits from some things the government has accomplished, which it does. Apollo was not done so we could all watch TV, use Velcro or drink Tang. Your original point would have said that was so.

Not remotely close. Apollo was about 'moon landings'. I've referenced satellites, and the FIRST satellite was put into orbit by a GOVERNMENT, and a COMMUNIST one, at that.

The fact that private enterprise has recognized the utility of satellites (long AFTER the military did) is precisely what private enterprise does - identify opportunities and profitability via shorter term ROI. But governments were coming up with ways to build and launch satellites, and fund those activities, well BEFORE any private enterprises were. No private 'capitalist' entity launched a satellite until >50 years AFTER governments did it. Their purpose (military) is not relevant; none of that technology would exist and could never have been exploited for private purposes if not for NON-capitalist motivations.

And, FWIW, the GPS system is STILL run by a GOVERNMENT entity, NOT any private, capitalist entity. That system alone has provided massive ROI for many private companies building products which interact with it.

You're completely mistaking that I'm somehow 'against' capitalism, and 'for' socialism, which is absolutely incorrect. I'm simply pointing out that capitalism and free market forces are NOT always the driver for technologies, and are NOT always the most effective means of accomplishing things.

 

[coloradonoles]

I'm very confused about what y'all are arguing about anymore...

Clearly the government relies on "Capitalists" to continue to run/develop many of the things they originally took on.

Surely you are not saying that the government provides everything for us, right?

 

[Joes Place]

I'm very confused about what y'all are arguing about anymore...

Clearly the government relies on "Capitalists" to continue to run/develop many of the things they originally took on.

Surely you are not saying that the government provides everything for us, right?

Of course not.
But 'capitalists' likewise don't 'provide everything for us' either. They do better than socialists, though.