CDC Mask Mandate Study... Debunked
- Thread starter coloradonoles
- Start date
Perhaps you would be able to identify the states with mandates and the states without... should be obvious.
Hint: They are in a random order so don't guess alphabetical order...
Um.....what does that have to do with flu being down this year? The answer on why the flu is down, which i provided, is simple to anyone who has an IQ above 50 and finished the third grade. More mask wearing, more social distancing and works and schools are closed.
(From pnas.org article)
“Overall, direct evidence of the efficacy of mask use is supportive, but inconclusive (quite the statement to make considering all the summaries prior to that were NOT supportive of masking). Since there are no RCTs, only one observational trial, and unclear evidence from other respiratory illnesses, we will need to look at a wider body of evidence.”
And what ‘evidence’ did they turn to? Modeling (ask Neil Ferguson about that) and psychobabble like this:
Creating New Symbolism around Wearing a Mask.
Ritual and solidarity are important in human societies and can combine with visible signals to shape new societal behaviors (119, 120). Universal mask wearing could serve as a visible signal and reminder of the pandemic. Signaling participation in health behaviors by wearing a mask as well as visible enforcement can increase compliance with public mask wearing, but also other important preventative behaviors (121). Historically, epidemics are a time of fear, confusion, and helplessness (122, 123). Mask wearing, and even mask making or distribution, can provide feelings of empowerment and self-efficacy (124). Health is a form of public good in that everyone else’s health behaviors improve the health odds of everyone else (125, 126). This can make masks symbols of altruism and solidarity (127). Viewing masks as a social practice, governed by sociocultural norms, instead of a medical intervention, has also been proposed to enhance longer-term uptake (128).
LOL...you have got to be f'n kidding - you can not possibly be this stupid. I'm not sure what your point is here...they are looking at ways to encourage widespread mask use which would support the point that masks work. Let's see what you skipped...(From pnas.org article)
“Overall, direct evidence of the efficacy of mask use is supportive, but inconclusive (quite the statement to make considering all the summaries prior to that were NOT supportive of masking). Since there are no RCTs, only one observational trial, and unclear evidence from other respiratory illnesses, we will need to look at a wider body of evidence.”
And what ‘evidence’ did they turn to? Modeling (ask Neil Ferguson about that) and psychobabble like this:
Creating New Symbolism around Wearing a Mask.
Ritual and solidarity are important in human societies and can combine with visible signals to shape new societal behaviors (119, 120). Universal mask wearing could serve as a visible signal and reminder of the pandemic. Signaling participation in health behaviors by wearing a mask as well as visible enforcement can increase compliance with public mask wearing, but also other important preventative behaviors (121). Historically, epidemics are a time of fear, confusion, and helplessness (122, 123). Mask wearing, and even mask making or distribution, can provide feelings of empowerment and self-efficacy (124). Health is a form of public good in that everyone else’s health behaviors improve the health odds of everyone else (125, 126). This can make masks symbols of altruism and solidarity (127). Viewing masks as a social practice, governed by sociocultural norms, instead of a medical intervention, has also been proposed to enhance longer-term uptake (128).
A Cochrane review (15) on physical interventions to interrupt or reduce the spread of respiratory viruses included 67 RCTs and observational studies. It found that “overall masks were the best performing intervention across populations, settings and threats.”
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21735402/
The Usher Institute incorporated laboratory as well as epidemiological evidence in their review (18), finding that “homemade masks worn by sick people can reduce virus transmission by mitigating aerosol dispersal. Homemade masks worn by sick people can also reduce transmission through droplets.” One preprint systematic review (19) including epidemiological, theoretical, experimental, and clinical evidence found that “face masks in a general population offered significant benefit in preventing the spread of respiratory viruses especially in the pandemic situation, but its utility is limited by inconsistent adherence to mask usage.”
https://www.ed.ac.uk/files/atoms/files/uncover_003-03_summary_-_facemasks_community_anon.pdf
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.01.20087064v1
Randomized control trial evidence that investigated the impact of masks on household transmission during influenza epidemics indicates potential benefit. Suess et al. (21) conducted an RCT that suggests household transmission of influenza can be reduced by the use of nonpharmaceutical interventions, namely the use of face masks and intensified hand hygiene, when implemented early and used diligently. Concerns about acceptability and tolerability of the interventions should not be a reason against their recommendation (21). In an RCT, Cowling et al. (22) investigated hand hygiene and face masks that seemed to prevent household transmission of influenza virus when implemented within 36 h of index patient symptom onset. These findings suggest that nonpharmaceutical interventions are important for mitigation of pandemic and interpandemic influenza. RCT findings by Aiello et al. (23) “suggest that face masks and hand hygiene may reduce respiratory illnesses in shared living settings and mitigate the impact of the influenza A (H1N1) pandemic.” A randomized intervention trial (24) found that “face masks and hand hygiene combined may reduce the rate of ILI [influenza-like illness] and confirmed influenza in community settings. These nonpharmaceutical measures should be recommended in crowded settings at the start of an influenza pandemic.” The authors noted that their study “demonstrated a significant association between the combined use of face masks and hand hygiene and a substantially reduced incidence of ILI during a seasonal influenza outbreak.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22280120/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19652172/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20088690/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22295066/
Leffler et al. (29) used a multiple regression approach, including a range of policy interventions and country and population characteristics, to infer the relationship between mask use and SARS-CoV-2 transmission. They found that transmission was 7.5 times higher in countries that did not have a mask mandate or universal mask use, a result similar to that found in an analogous study of fewer countries (30).
https://www.pnas.org/content/118/4/e2014564118#ref-29
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.31.20048652v1
And we'll just skip to their conclusion...
Conclusion
Our review of the literature offers evidence in favor of widespread mask use as source control to reduce community transmission: Nonmedical masks use materials that obstruct particles of the necessary size; people are most infectious in the initial period postinfection, where it is common to have few or no symptoms (45, 46, 141); nonmedical masks have been effective in reducing transmission of respiratory viruses; and places and time periods where mask usage is required or widespread have shown substantially lower community transmission.
The available evidence suggests that near-universal adoption of nonmedical masks when out in public, in combination with complementary public health measures, could successfully reduce Re
to below 1, thereby reducing community spread if such measures are sustained. Economic analysis suggests that mask wearing mandates could add 1 trillion dollars to the US GDP (32, 34).
Models suggest that public mask wearing is most effective at reducing spread of the virus when compliance is high (39). We recommend that mask use requirements are implemented by governments, or, when governments do not, by organizations that provide public-facing services. Such mandates must be accompanied by measures to ensure access to masks, possibly including distribution and rationing mechanisms so that they do not become discriminatory. Given the value of the source control principle, especially for presymptomatic people, it is not sufficient for only employees to wear masks; customers must wear masks as well.
It is also important for health authorities to provide clear guidelines for the production, use, and sanitization or reuse of face masks, and consider their distribution as shortages allow. Clear and implementable guidelines can help increase compliance, and bring communities closer to the goal of reducing and ultimately stopping the spread of COVID-19.
When used in conjunction with widespread testing, contact tracing, quarantining of anyone that may be infected, hand washing, and physical distancing, face masks are a valuable tool to reduce community transmission. All of these measures, through their effect on Re, have the potential to reduce the number of infections. As governments exit lockdowns, keeping transmissions low enough to preserve health care capacity will be critical until a vaccine can be developed.
Yet, they serve exactly the same function: preventing the spread of airborne pathogens.
Certainly, you learned this SOME year during med school.
And to address the other possible point......
Yes I’d wear one in surge
To decrease my odds of getting the virus.
This can’t possibly have anything to do with my original reply post can it? Because that was directed towards a poster that made a comparison of masking now to masking in the OR.
While the equipment is the same, they are not comparable.
If you actually have a point you’d like to debate, do so.
Yep, tell all those medical workers who have forever worn face masks that they were wasting their time. Idiocy has taken over the GOP.
That's some serious PWNAGE, there, @shank hawk
You should try reading some actual science literature, vs. Op Eds in politically slanted business publications
i wanted to know why you would wear a mask treating a covid patient if they don’t prevent the spread of covid.
Well have you learned that there is a difference between aerosol viral transmission and droplet transmission of bacteria? Masking during surgery is NOT done to minimize viral transmission to the patient. So, again, while the equipment is the same, they are not comparable.
In fact, masking during surgery to avoid intra-operative bacterial infections has been shown in multiple studies to be unnecessary.
The real function of the mask is to minimize the risk to the surgeon of body fluids from the patient infecting him/her. Again, not the same as wearing, or not, a mask in the grocery store.
That was NOT my point. I have said so in multiple threads in the past. Thanks for allowing me to clarify.
I merely took issue with the poster’s analogy right after which he called others morons.
Edit: I would draw a distinction here though. I mask because I am going to have my face in the patient’s face in many encounters. And while looking at their throat, with their mouth open.
Am i convinced I need to wear a mask in the grocery or hardware store? I am not. In fact the place I’d most worry about getting COVID personally right now Is in a poorly ventilated restaurant eating at a table with non-family members.
I think that when people have looked closely at this it is fairly easy to predict scenarios that put you at risk. Prolonged close contact with people with exposure to their droplets. Those situations are best avoided until such a time as one has been vaccinated or herd immunity is reached. If one is in an at risk population or group.
That last point is key. I have stated from the beginning that all of these mitigation measures should serve one purpose. Flattening the curve to avoid overwhelming hospitals. Once we are out of that proverbial woods we need to open back up to normal life and the ‘at risk‘ need to exercise caution. And the rest of us need to get back to life.
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Really? Then why do hospital ORs spend so much money on the PPE for them? Masks, gowns, etc.
Read my last post edit and comment as you see fit. I hate to type it again.
I read it correctly the first time.
And you're still incorrect.
Best joke my PhD/MD advisor told was "What do you call the guy who finishes last in his medical school class?"
A: "Doctor"
Congrats, Last-In-Class Doc!!!
Well one because it is historically the way things were done to prevent infection. But the real reason is to protect the surgeon.
What does PPE stand for Joe? Maybe I’d start there if I were you If you are looking to gain understanding.
No my reply to @Kenneth Griffin.
Your attacks on my intellect don’t affect me. I’m more than confident that mine exceeds yours. Are you?
I didn’t say you made that point but there are several posters here claiming masks don’t prevent the spread of covid. I’m glad you disagree.
Thanks! Since I never studied a lot of these fancy science terms you used above I highlighted/enlarged them; any help you can give me in interpreting them would be most helpful. 🤣🤣🤣
No; it's to limit the amount of bacterial risk to the patients.
It's why regular surgical masks are used, and not N95s.
It's "historically done" because people figured out what bacterial pathogens are. And that you can shed them from your breathing, as well as literally shed them off your face and skin.
I stand corrected. You're as stupid as you appear to be. My apologies for assuming you understood the basics of scientific inquiry.
Joe you’re getting owned here. Id stop. Your attempt to explain things to me that I understand but you do not makes you look foolish. And arrogant to a fault.
Masks in the OR haven’t been shown to actually reduce the bacterial risk to patients. There are multiple studies that have looked at this. But yet they are still used for a variety of reasons. Mainly because the absence of evidence they work does not mean that there is evidence that it doesn’t .
Next one does not need an N95 to protect oneself from blood and body fluids. That is the main reason for one to wear PPE. Also called “Personal protective equipment” That says it all.
You last paragraph seems to make no point whatsoever so rather than attempt a reply to what I think you are saying, Ill let you clarify what’s your point was.
God forbid I should ever have to depend on a "doctor" like you. JFC, you're a snowflake.
This is correct. No clinical trials have ever demonstrated that surgical masks are effective at preventing wound infections caused by HCW’s.
Mainly, because no one will conduct a "control group" with zero masks during a surgery, because it's well understood that increases risks to the patients.
You really need to stick with doing the ER work, and stay out of Science-Land. They looked at bacterial loads falling from masks in ER settings, and masks CLEARLY lower the shedding.
The issue (and the older references you are probably referring to) relate to the incorrect understanding that masks will work for long surgeries, and they've found that bacterial loads can accumulate on the masks and render them less-effective after 15 or 30 minutes and the recommendation was double masking (to limit bacterial load accumulations on outer masks) or replacing masks regularly during surgery.
When you KNOW the mechanisms of bacterial transfer, you can conduct relevant studies without RCTs that use "no masks". Certainly, this was taught to you in undergrad and med school, but you weren't in class those days.
And that's simply because they KNOW the "control group" WILL result in infections and serious risks to the patients. That's a BIG NO-NO in any controlled trials, and considered "unethical".
You and haw-key do not seem to understand this. Stay In Your Lane, bro.
Have you ever considered the possibility of being able to measure bacteria on a surface that's simulated rather than live?
Have you even looked at the real life studies where masks haven't been worn? There are some out there you know.
Just asking.
Again: you're out of your element here.
They measure bacterial colonies formed on plates placed below the masks, to assess what's falling into the surgical field. This is a much "safer" and surefire experimental method, than a "live patient" who could be put at risk.
That's funny. You're out of your element. You ignore anything that doesn't fit your personal agenda. And you also agreed with me.
There are studies. You either haven't seen them, or have ignored them. You are the master cherry picker.
Yeah, its all about the masks...
@haw-key already admitted he wears a mask around covid patients because they help prevent covid spread.
Sure. Get tf out with your medical ethics. Pharma can’t do vaccine trials with saline placebos cuz it would be ‘unethical’ to deny someone their jab (they say).
Yet it’s completely ethical to experiment on starving, third world children with their new vaccines.
And it’s completely ethical to take an experimental vax from sequencing to market in < 1 year.
Masks are pure cosmetics.
Not designed the way you think, however.
If you understood them, you'd realize they don't support your premise here.
Stick with the ER gig.
My other favorite joke from grad school (from a non-surgeon MD) is
"Where do you hide something from a surgeon?"
A: "In a Book"
Well to be clear, once again, I have a unique exposure that others do not. I am not yet clear that the routine use of masks, as an isolated risk mitigation, in public for casual exposure is warranted. I don’t think the data is there.
Do all the measures we have in place make a difference? They seem to yes. But since this is a mask discussion, I don’t know that a study exists that has looked ONLY at that. In the circumstances I describe. The grocery store, The park, The soccer field. The neigborhood Lowes. If it exists, I’d be happy to take a look.
What do I think has helped the most? The avoidance of large gatherings of people indoors for prolonged periods. People staying home from work and public while sick. The quarantine recommendations for exposed individuals. At risk being ultra cautious. I simply do not believe that these mask MANDATES are really that critical.
Oh look, another Joe backtrack. One minute they don’t exist because they are unethical, next, well they do but they arent what you think they are. Dude. You are really bad at debate. Stick to what you are good at. Which is, what again?
Mask proponents love to point to lab controlled studies in an attempt to say 'see they work!'.
Meanwhile, in real life, people use the same mask for days, throw in on the car seat, stuff it in their coat pocket, and take it on and off multiple times throughout the day. And, the case data doesn't show any obvious benefits when you compare mask mandate areas, vs. those without.
But, they really want everyone to believe they are effective because they might have blocked some droplets from reaching a hamster in a lab.
Meanwhile, in real life, people use the same mask for days, throw in on the car seat, stuff it in their coat pocket, and take it on and off multiple times throughout the day. And, the case data doesn't show any obvious benefits when you compare mask mandate areas, vs. those without.
But, they really want everyone to believe they are effective because they might have blocked some droplets from reaching a hamster in a lab.
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