Cleveland could yield Gable's record falling to Cael.

[jvclark]

I don't know if that's right. All the PSU fans on the board would have me believe that Cael is by far both the best coach AND the best recruiter in the game right now. Are you suggesting he couldn't have won a national title at a historical top 5 wrestling program??

A few thoughts. I think Cael is a good coach and a good recruiter. We don't know if he is great at either. If he were at Boise State or even Iowa State and Nickal, Nolf, Retherford, Hall etc were following him there it would be safe to say he was a great recruiter. If he had won a title or two at ISU before going to PSU it would be safe to call him a great coach as well. Again, he could be great at both, but due to the proximity of the greatest recruiting area in the country, we just don't know. History will tell us otherwise as the titles will be there, but those of us that really know what is going on, will have "doubts"

I would like to have polled all of the PSU fans that frequent our board a week or even a year before Cael left ISU to ask them if they thought he was a great coach then..... Now can a coach get better, or become great over time? Sure, but the question will always be why did Cael start winning ONLY AFTER going to PSU.

Now with that said, do I think he would have won at ISU? Yes I do, at least eventually,but not to the level of what he has done the past 7 years. And as I said before, if he thought he could have, why leave ISU in the first place?? BUT, if he had D Taylor(and a few others) coming to ISU, then I think he would have had other studs coming as well. BUT to the level of the recruiting he has done being in the middle of PA and right next to NY and NJ? Hell no.

 

[Pennstate1985]

A few thoughts. I think Cael is a good coach and a good recruiter. We don't know if he is great at either. If he were at Boise State or even Iowa State and Nickal, Nolf, Retherford, Hall etc were following him there it would be safe to say he was a great recruiter. If he had won a title or two at ISU before going to PSU it would be safe to call him a great coach as well. Again, he could be great at both, but due to the proximity of the greatest recruiting area in the country, we just don't know. History will tell us otherwise as the titles will be there, but those of us that really know what is going on, will have "doubts"

I would like to have polled all of the PSU fans that frequent our board a week or even a year before Cael left ISU to ask them if they thought he was a great coach then..... Now can a coach get better, or become great over time? Sure, but the question will always be why did Cael start winning ONLY AFTER going to PSU.

Now with that said, do I think he would have won at ISU? Yes I do, at least eventually,but not to the level of what he has done the past 7 years. And as I said before, if he thought he could have, why leave ISU in the first place?? BUT, if he had D Taylor(and a few others) coming to ISU, then I think he would have had other studs coming as well. BUT to the level of the recruiting he has done being in the middle of PA and right next to NY and NJ? Hell no.

At this point, after 6 titles in the last 7 years, if you don't believe Cael is great at coaching AND recruiting then you are lying to yourself. Recruiting is obvious and needs no explanation. Cael figured out the secret sauce on recruits to make a run every year as champs. Bring in the best of the best and fill out the room with mid tier guys. No more coaching up a whole team of starters from mid tier guys. The fact that Tom Brands and Tom Ryan have followed suit should tell us all we need to know on that subject.

As for coaching, I will point to three national finals where great coaching was obvious. The first was Q's final against Kilgore with the underhooks. A well coached strategy for winning that single match. Second was last year with Nico against Gilman. Nico practiced that first TD position repeatedly in the room prior to having the opportunity in the final. The third was Joseph versus IMAR over the weekend. Joseph said he spent the last two weeks practicing hand fighting because that is where IMAR beat him the first two times. Their probably are many more examples easy and hard to spot, but suffice to say, not every coach gets his guys ready for important matches, but oftentimes Cael does. As do several other coaches.

I don't understand the need to denigrate Cael when it's obvious he knows what he's doing. Same with Tom Brands and Tom Ryan and John Smith. Great recruiters and great coaches. Although I will say that Smith has yet to tweak his recruiting to match his coaching prowess, and this may hurt OSU down the road.

As for why he didn't do the same at ISU, I will only point out Bill Belicheck. He was canned with the Browns after a lackluster coaching debut. In his own words, he said he needed to understand his role in the organization and stick to it. Maybe Cael discovered that his main roles are to recruit and be the 'dad' to the team and leave other duties to his capable coaches. That's called growing into your job.

 

[FrontHeadlock2]

As for coaching, I will point to three national finals where great coaching was obvious. The first was Q's final against Kilgore. A well coached strategy for winning that single match. Second was last year with Nico against Gilman. Nico practiced that position in the room prior to trying it out in the final. The third was Joseph versus IMAR over the weekend. Joseph said he spent the last two weeks practicing hand fighting because that is where IMAR beat him the first two times. There probably many more examples easy and hard to spot, but suffice to say, not every coach gets his guys ready for important matches.

Whoa, a match strategy! Situational wrestling practice! Handfighting!

I better book Bael for a clinic STAT. Guy is just on another level.

 

[Pennstate1985]

Whoa, a match strategy! Situational wrestling practice! Handfighting!

I better book Bael for a clinic STAT. Guy is just on another level.

That's all ya got in reply? I'm sorry, I thought this was a gun fight.

 

[FrontHeadlock2]

That's all ya got in reply? I'm sorry, I thought this was a gun fight.

What else is there to say? You literally pointed out "a match strategy", "situational wrestling practice" and "handfighting" as examples of great coaching.

That'd be like me saying "Tom Brands is a great coach! His wrestler was getting winded so he told him to run more!!"

 

[jvclark]

At this point, after 6 titles in the last 7 years, if you don't believe Cael is great at coaching AND recruiting then you are lying to yourself. Recruiting is obvious and needs no explanation. Cael figured out the secret sauce on recruits to make a run every year as champs. Bring in the best of the best and fill out the room with mid tier guys. No more coaching up a whole team of starters from mid tier guys. The fact that Tom Brands and Tom Ryan have followed suit should tell us all we need to know on that subject.

As for coaching, I will point to three national finals where great coaching was obvious. The first was Q's final against Kilgore with the underhooks. A well coached strategy for winning that single match. Second was last year with Nico against Gilman. Nico practiced that first TD position repeatedly in the room prior to having the opportunity in the final. The third was Joseph versus IMAR over the weekend. Joseph said he spent the last two weeks practicing hand fighting because that is where IMAR beat him the first two times. Their probably are many more examples easy and hard to spot, but suffice to say, not every coach gets his guys ready for important matches, but oftentimes Cael does. As do several other coaches.

I don't understand the need to denigrate Cael when it's obvious he knows what he's doing. Same with Tom Brands and Tom Ryan and John Smith. Great recruiters and great coaches. Although I will say that Smith has yet to tweak his recruiting to match his coaching prowess, and this may hurt OSU down the road.

As for why he didn't do the same at ISU, I will only point out Bill Belicheck. He was canned with the Browns after a lackluster coaching debut. In his own words, he said he needed to understand his role in the organization and stick to it. Maybe Cael discovered that his main roles are to recruit and be the 'dad' to the team and leave other duties to his capable coaches. That's called growing into your job.

First of all, I don't recall one part of my post where I, as you said,"denigrated" Cael. I said, very clearly I might add, that he was both a good coach and a good recruiter. I didn't say he was poor at either.

Secondly, I think it's a fair to bring in different tenures when determining the "greatness" of a coach, in this case, Cael's years at ISU. Oh and by the way, I even went on to say that I thought he would have won at ISU if he had stayed there.

Lastly, now that you bring Belicheck into the discussion, lets talk about him a bit. Did he fail at Cleveland? Most people say yes. When did really start winning at New England? When he arguably had the best QB in history playing for him. The best QB. Now, what most all NFL pundits say makes Belicheck great, amongst other things, is his ability to take a lot of players that no one else wanted, make them fit his system and then ultimiately win with them(L Blount, D Lewis, K Hogan J Edelman etc).

Now I ask you PennState1985, of the kids that Cael has won 6 of the last 7 titles, which were wrestlers that no one else in the country wanted? Yeah, no one wanted Hall, or Retherford, or Nickal. Am I missing any other wrestlers on your roster that NO ONE else wanted?????????

 

[OpenWater]

I was there for 1997 record and all its awesomeness. I remember the tremendous Friday we had, and hadn't really felt anything like it until yesterday. They are truly within striking distance, and I would dare say the odds are better they do break it than not.

What was amazing about '97 was that we were NOT favored to win. I don't believe Cael will ever ever be as good of a coach as Gable was, nor develop wrestlers to such a higher caliber than what they started out as Gable. But I do believe he is going to break records.

Anyway, I am a fan of wrestling and off to Cleveland I will go. Could be history.

It would be history in once sense. Cael will be the first Cael. Gable will always be Gable.

 

[Pennstate1985]

First of all, I don't recall one part of my post where I, as you said,"denigrated" Cael. I said, very clearly I might add, that he was both a good coach and a good recruiter. I didn't say he was poor at either.

Now I ask you PennState1985, of the kids that Cael has won 6 of the last 7 titles, which were wrestlers that no one else in the country wanted? Yeah, no one wanted Hall, or Retherford, or Nickal. Am I missing any other wrestlers on your roster that NO ONE else wanted?????????

As to your first point, saying that Cael is a good recruiter and coach is denigrating him. Same as if I said Brands was 'merely' good. They are both great coaches and recruiters. Same as Ryan and Smith. You can dance around words if you'd like, or we could have a reasonable conversation. You know what you meant, and there's no sense trying to weasel on how you really feel.

As to your last point, that's a silly statement to make. Of course everyone wanted many of those guys, and there are some Cael wanted that went elsewhere, and still others that Cael didn't want but everyone else wanted. Why may you ask? Because the shelf was full with the kid he wanted or that the kid didn't fit what Cael is preaching, etc. Same goes for the other coaches. On one hand, you call Cael a good recruiter and on the other hand you blast him for hogging all the recruits. Which is it? If Cael is good, where do Brands, Ryan, and Smith fit on your scales of goodness?

 

[jvclark]

What else is there to say? You literally pointed out "a match strategy", "situational wrestling practice" and "handfighting" as examples of great coaching.

That'd be like me saying "Tom Brands is a great coach! His wrestler was getting winded so he told him to run more!!"

As to your first point, saying that Cael is a good recruiter and coach is denigrating him. Same as if I said Brands was 'merely' good. They are both great coaches and recruiters. Same as Ryan and Smith. You can dance around words if you'd like, or we could have a reasonable conversation. You know what you meant, and there's no sense trying to weasel on how you really feel.

As to your last point, that's a silly statement to make. Of course everyone wanted many of those guys, and there are some Cael wanted that went elsewhere, and still others that Cael didn't want but everyone else wanted. Why may you ask? Because the shelf was full with the kid he wanted or that the kid didn't fit what Cael is preaching, etc. Same goes for the other coaches. On one hand, you call Cael a good recruiter and on the other hand you blast him for hogging all the recruits. Which is it? If Cael is good, where do Brands, Ryan, and Smith fit on your scales of goodness?

I don't know why I would need to be part of a conversation with you. You seem to be doing just fine putting your words into my mouth already. So no thanks.

I am not dancing around anything. I have said very clearly, from word one, what I have felt, where you chose to read into what I have said.

To quote you, "Why may I ask?" You were the one that started drawing comparisons to Bill Bilecheck, not me. I just ran with it. I will say it again since you apparently missed it the first time. Bill Belicheck has a WELL KNOWN history of taking players that no one else wants and then winning Super Bowls with them. See the first post for a few examples. I took your choice of coaching comparisons and asked which of Caels wrestlers were the "wrestlers" that no one else wanted? Which recruits did he take off the proverbial scrap heap and then turn into point scoring all american wrestlers? Again, your Belicheck comparison, not mine. To add to that comparison, Belicheck gets ONE first round draft pick a year(less once in a while ). Which one of the kids that Cael had in the finals this year wasnt the equivalent of a first round draft pick, or hell, top ten or even top five draft picks. Since Belicheck was your analogy, I hope you don't mind if I add to it, also hope you are keeping up.

Now, we all have different definitions of what great is, fair enough? Your definition appears to be based on how many top recruits a coach gets and how many titles he wins. Fair enough, good for you. If that is the case, Cael is the best coach hands down in the country.

 

[cidhawkeye]

I'm not suggesting, history is. While at ISU he never beat Iowa as a wrestler nor as a coach. He has basically admitted as much regarding recruiting.

And yes, I understand you are being facetious.

Didn't he even lose to a Hawkeye?

 

[FrontHeadlock2]

Didn't he even lose to a Hawkeye?

Yup. Lost to Lee Fullhart internationally as well.

 

[rossel 33]

At this point, after 6 titles in the last 7 years, if you don't believe Cael is great at coaching AND recruiting then you are lying to yourself. Recruiting is obvious and needs no explanation. Cael figured out the secret sauce on recruits to make a run every year as champs. Bring in the best of the best and fill out the room with mid tier guys. No more coaching up a whole team of starters from mid tier guys. The fact that Tom Brands and Tom Ryan have followed suit should tell us all we need to know on that subject.

I don't understand the need to denigrate Cael when it's obvious he knows what he's doing. Same with Tom Brands and Tom Ryan and John Smith. Great recruiters and great coaches. Although I will say that Smith has yet to tweak his recruiting to match his coaching prowess, and this may hurt OSU down the road.

Pennstate1985, you're one a handful of decent PSU fans who add quality to this board. Allow me to agree .... partially.

I think it is absolutely true that Cael is a great recruiter. At ISU, he is the reason Varner, from out here in CA, decided to go to ISU. That same year, he got his brother Cyler from Utah and Gallick from AZ. Plus Mitch Mueller from IA - yet another top ranked guy. And getting Taylor to plan on ISU was huge.

While at PSU, he is bringing in not only the cream of the crop from PA, but also from CA (Nevills and McIntosh), TX (Nickal), NJ (Suriano), VA (Manville), Hall and Berge (MN), Wittlake (OR), Bravo-Young (AZ). Safe to say Cael can recruit - he did well at ISU, and at PSU it is at an unprecedented level.

As far as coaching, I'm not going to sit here and say Cael is not a good coach. I think he is. But at the same time, it is hard for me to say just how good he is, given that he is starting with guys that are practically AA level as they graduate from HS - virtually all top 10 p4p, all at the top of their weight classes, some Cadet or World FS Gold medalists.

Personally, I think Brands is better at developing guys, just because he's done it - taken guys who were very good in HS, but not considered the best, and turned them into high level AA's or even champions. Metcalf was considered among the very best coming out of HS (along with Schlatter), but McDonough, Sorenson, Gilman and Clark were not at such a high level. But they all excelled under Brands.

In Cael's case, he has rarely had to travel that road, taking a lower tiered wrestler and elevating him, so it is harder for me to say how "great" of a coach he is.

 

[Pennstate1985]

Personally, I think Brands is better at developing guys, just because he's done it - taken guys who were very good in HS, but not considered the best, and turned them into high level AA's or even champions. Metcalf was considered among the very best coming out of HS (along with Schlatter), but McDonough, Sorenson, Gilman and Clark were not at such a high level. But they all excelled under Brands.

In Cael's case, he has rarely had to travel that road, taking a lower tiered wrestler and elevating him, so it is harder for me to say how "great" of a coach he is.

Thanks for your kind words!

I certainly don't have an issue with the bolded. Brands has indeed proven his mettle when it comes to coaching. I believe Cael has as well, but his resume may be a little shorter than Tom's. All's good. In the same vein, maybe Cael's recruiting prowess is a little better than Tom's. I think we both have great coaches, and I mean that in the totality of the word. They think outside the box, recruit well, and coach to the moment.