I would go safety to mid-tier, assuming they have what you need to get into med school. No one really cares where you went to undergrad if you are a doctor or lawyer, the care about the med/law school, and how you did there.
College Choices - Prestige vs Avoiding Debt??
- Thread starter NDallasRuss
- Start date
It depends on the type of grad school. A standard PhD then prestige of the undergrad matters more. For Law School and Med School and to a lesser extent B School, the test (LSAT, MCAT etc) and having high gpa matters more than the prestige of the underlying school. In other words an FSU graduate with a 172 LSAT score is going to get into a LOT better law schools than a Harvard grad with a 152 LSAT. The FSU grad with that score will get into at least every Regional school they apply to, at least half of the Elite Schools and may sneak into a Premier school if there’s something else attractive (extracurriculars, race etc..). The Harvard grad with that score will be lucky to get into half of the State Schools and won’t sniff a Regional school.
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One thing I've found out is that many of the elite schools that promise to cover "all need without loans" is that their idea and my idea of need is a hell of a lot different. They can easily decide your contribution is $40k a year on a $60k a year nut and you only "need" $20k. I do well, but not stroking a $40k a year check like it's nothing kind of well. Especially with three kids.
Since you have a great in-state option with UVA, this is an absolute no brainer to me, depending on how much debt that's still going to cost. I'm still not sure I'd take on $100k in debt for that if she could go to VT or Texas A&M for free though.
Have you and her sat down and looked at the payment schedule on $100k yet? Does she have the concept of what kind of payback that's going to be, and for how long? It might not matter if she can't actually visualize the money, but $1000 a month for 15 years makes a massive difference in lifestyle. I can't even imaging what $2000-3000 would do.
Take a look at the difference in apartments between a $1500 apartment and a $2500 apartment. If you're near a big city, which I'm sure she things she would want to live, drive by both. What neighborhood each is in?
Look at the difference between a car you can purchase with $300/mo vs $450 a month...these are the true tradeoffs that this will mean, and will mean for at least a decade.
I'm sure a kid on her track is confident that she will make unlimited money. It's hard to make them understand...you can be as smart and as driven as she is, and it's far from a guarantee, hell it's not even likely, to get that golden ticket. Too much can happen. That kind of debt will alter your entire life.
It's important to consider the way that kind of debt is a shackle. In general, it's much more likely that her post college opportunities will be limited by enormous debt than they will be by graduating top of her class at "only" Texas A&M. So imagine having to turn down your dream job, or dream city, or both upon graduation because you need to make a $2000 nut every single month. What if ten years from now she wants to start a family and take time off or go part time, and can't? Or if you get sick, and she can't take time off and come see you? That kind of debt just permeates your life for a long, long time.
Which is nothing to speak of what that same $2000/mo for a couple decades sunk into retirement instead of loans at graduation would mean. You're easily talking about getting a start on the kind of next egg where you can retire early and see the world.
I'll say one more thing in favor of the match and safety schools. I guarantee people from those schools have gone on to do anything and everything of importance, careers your daughter would dream of having. WVU graduates have become astronauts.
And if she goes to one of those schools, she has a great chance to position for the very best opportunities. There are very good opportunities to being one of the best students at Texas A&M or Virginia Tech, and getting the best research opportunities, the best mentors, etc. Because I know your daughter is a superstar...but I guarantee that when she shows up at Stanford or Harvard...she's just another kid, which is going to be a big change for her. If she has the drive and ability she does, she's going to have unbelievable opportunities at a "normal" university.
I know your kid is awesome, but letting an 18 year old take on hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt is just too much. They don't have the world experience to appreciate what that means...all they are is laser focused on the goal, which is laudable. If you don't have the cash to just stroke a check and pay for it, I just can't imagine letting them enter a commitment that's going to follow them around and have repercussions for decades. If she wants to take on graduate school debt, that's a different story. A big difference for a 22-year old having a plan and understanding the cost benefit of things.
Since you have a great in-state option with UVA, this is an absolute no brainer to me, depending on how much debt that's still going to cost. I'm still not sure I'd take on $100k in debt for that if she could go to VT or Texas A&M for free though.
Have you and her sat down and looked at the payment schedule on $100k yet? Does she have the concept of what kind of payback that's going to be, and for how long? It might not matter if she can't actually visualize the money, but $1000 a month for 15 years makes a massive difference in lifestyle. I can't even imaging what $2000-3000 would do.
Take a look at the difference in apartments between a $1500 apartment and a $2500 apartment. If you're near a big city, which I'm sure she things she would want to live, drive by both. What neighborhood each is in?
Look at the difference between a car you can purchase with $300/mo vs $450 a month...these are the true tradeoffs that this will mean, and will mean for at least a decade.
I'm sure a kid on her track is confident that she will make unlimited money. It's hard to make them understand...you can be as smart and as driven as she is, and it's far from a guarantee, hell it's not even likely, to get that golden ticket. Too much can happen. That kind of debt will alter your entire life.
It's important to consider the way that kind of debt is a shackle. In general, it's much more likely that her post college opportunities will be limited by enormous debt than they will be by graduating top of her class at "only" Texas A&M. So imagine having to turn down your dream job, or dream city, or both upon graduation because you need to make a $2000 nut every single month. What if ten years from now she wants to start a family and take time off or go part time, and can't? Or if you get sick, and she can't take time off and come see you? That kind of debt just permeates your life for a long, long time.
Which is nothing to speak of what that same $2000/mo for a couple decades sunk into retirement instead of loans at graduation would mean. You're easily talking about getting a start on the kind of next egg where you can retire early and see the world.
I'll say one more thing in favor of the match and safety schools. I guarantee people from those schools have gone on to do anything and everything of importance, careers your daughter would dream of having. WVU graduates have become astronauts.
And if she goes to one of those schools, she has a great chance to position for the very best opportunities. There are very good opportunities to being one of the best students at Texas A&M or Virginia Tech, and getting the best research opportunities, the best mentors, etc. Because I know your daughter is a superstar...but I guarantee that when she shows up at Stanford or Harvard...she's just another kid, which is going to be a big change for her. If she has the drive and ability she does, she's going to have unbelievable opportunities at a "normal" university.
I know your kid is awesome, but letting an 18 year old take on hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt is just too much. They don't have the world experience to appreciate what that means...all they are is laser focused on the goal, which is laudable. If you don't have the cash to just stroke a check and pay for it, I just can't imagine letting them enter a commitment that's going to follow them around and have repercussions for decades. If she wants to take on graduate school debt, that's a different story. A big difference for a 22-year old having a plan and understanding the cost benefit of things.
Thanks Lou - there's a lot of good stuff in your post!
For whatever reason, she just wasn't thrilled with UVA's campus. Hard to fully explain why - architecture, surrounding neighborhood, whatever. She just didn't like it as much as som other campuses she's seen.
So she's aware that there are many different paths to where she wants to go - it's just a matter of making sure she's able to pick out the right one for her.
UVA comes to about $33k/yr standard pricing, including room and board. I'm not sure what it would be after FAFSA, financial aid, etc is done. Comparatively, Duke is about $75k/yr all in. We could come close to covering UVA, not so much Duke.
For whatever reason, she just wasn't thrilled with UVA's campus. Hard to fully explain why - architecture, surrounding neighborhood, whatever. She just didn't like it as much as som other campuses she's seen.
This is a big thing, and something we need to sit down and really illustrate for her. I don't think she's thought through what it would look like to have to start each month already being down that amount. And you're right - it does change the place she can live in for a while, or the car she can drive, or the vacations she can take, etc.
She's at least got a good example that she's seen first-hand for this. Back in elementary school, one of the other dads is a Virginia Tech grad. He sold his start-up business for $75M. He then turned around and started the next one.
So she's aware that there are many different paths to where she wants to go - it's just a matter of making sure she's able to pick out the right one for her.
Let me talk to her. She seemed like a very mature kid the one time I met her. If a complete fVckup like me can go to a great grad school and be successful, a hard worker like her should have no problems whether she goes to an Ivy or a safety school.
[QUOTE="NDallasRuss, post: 8
UVA comes to about $33k/yr standard pricing, including room and board. I'm not sure what it would be after FAFSA, financial aid, etc is done. Comparatively, Duke is about $75k/yr all in. We could come close to covering UVA, not so much Duke.
For whatever reason, she just wasn't thrilled with UVA's campus. Hard to fully explain why - architecture, surrounding neighborhood, whatever. She just didn't like it as much as some other campuses she's seen.
So she's aware that there are many different paths to where she wants to go - it's just a matter of making sure she's able to pick out the right one for her.[/QUOTE]
That she doesn't like the Grounds (yes, a pretentious way that UVA refers to its "campus") stuns me. Everything is beautiful and historic. She would get an excellent education and a cool environment.
Your last sentence is the most important one. She needs to choose her way. Your job is to educate her about how her choices will affect her in the long run and help her make her own choice.
UVA comes to about $33k/yr standard pricing, including room and board. I'm not sure what it would be after FAFSA, financial aid, etc is done. Comparatively, Duke is about $75k/yr all in. We could come close to covering UVA, not so much Duke.
For whatever reason, she just wasn't thrilled with UVA's campus. Hard to fully explain why - architecture, surrounding neighborhood, whatever. She just didn't like it as much as some other campuses she's seen.
So she's aware that there are many different paths to where she wants to go - it's just a matter of making sure she's able to pick out the right one for her.[/QUOTE]
That she doesn't like the Grounds (yes, a pretentious way that UVA refers to its "campus") stuns me. Everything is beautiful and historic. She would get an excellent education and a cool environment.
Your last sentence is the most important one. She needs to choose her way. Your job is to educate her about how her choices will affect her in the long run and help her make her own choice.
Yeah, my kids can basically go to UGA for free. People elsewhere might not realize, but UGA has quietly become a Top 50 university. It's not UVA, but it's in the neighborhood or better than much of the Big 10. It's not an elite school, but it's a very good school. And my kids can go there for free.
Both of my daughters visited and hated it, which makes zero sense to me. It's a perfectly fine campus, and Athens is awesome, but they acted like they were visiting a hog processing plant.
I'm pretty sure they're imputing, consciously or unconsciously, other biases and blaming it on the campus. My daughters had an image of who went to UGA, and overall it was just sort of "normie". It was an extension of high school, all the same vinyard vine boys and cheerleaders that they went to high school with. And I think doing the common thing just seemed too anticlimactic.
I tried to explain that in a school of that size, there are plenty of any kind of kids they want to hang with...freaks, geeks, antifa, radical homosexuals, straigt edge, it won't be high school again unless they want it to be. But they couldn't hear that. One got a scholarship to Alabama and went there and loved it (basically, UGA but lower ranked and a 3 hour longer drive to take her there and back). The other got into GT which was always her dream school and scratched her nerd/impressive buttons enough.
But I'll be damned that with one more to go, I'm staring down 0 for 3 that refuse to go to a top 50 university an hour a way for free.
maybe you should buy a swanky apartment and offer it as a gift if they attend uga. just spit ballin but even i find paying to attend alabama versus a full ride at uga outrageous — i suspect real reason is they wanted more miles from you
I ran into this, on a much smaller scale, with my oldest and graduate school. Our deal with them has always been that they'd go through undergrad with no loans, through a combination of us paying, and them limiting their options to what they could pay for. Basically, they can get up to about $18k a year on us, so they've got to find some place they can go for that all in.
But graduate school and the loans were always going to be on them.
My daughter had an odd result to graduate school admissions. Well, weird to us, as she's the first person in our family to go through grad school admissions...no I understand it's not that uncommon.
She applied to several schools outside Georgia (including her undergrad Alabama), and several schools in Georgia. She ended up getting accepted to good to great programs out of state and Alabama, and rejected by all the Georgia schools except her absolute safety, the worst one (GA Southern). It was really weird that she would get accepted by a top-10 program in Chicago, but stiff armed by Georgia State.
So she was looking at the options:
Top 10 program - $75k+ in loans for 5 semesters grad school
Alabama - $60k in loans for 5 semesters
GA Southern - $20k in loans
I felt bad for the outcome, she had assumed UGA or Georgia State was her "safety". And the program/facilities for GA Southern was pretty craptacular. The only appealing characteristic was that it was in Savannah, GA.
But her field, where you go to school has almost no bearing. You just need the piece of paper, that's it. Fully half of the program is two internships...it's only like 7 actual classes. And you don't start with much in your first job...usually in the high $50s.
She really, really wanted to stay at Alabama and eat the $60k loans. I finally showed her that repayment schedule, which was something like $700/month for ten years. That she'd still be paying that in her 30s. Luckily, at 21 she had a better fix on what they meant...she'd lived in apartments by that time and knew what $700 more dollars got you. She knew that would be that much longer she'd be driving the mom car we gave her.
Looking at that payment schedule, with "Age 31" instead of "Year 8", was the thing that turned it around for her.
It worked out very well. She broke up with her Alabama boyfriend like six months later, and never talked about wishing she was at Alabama again. The GA Southern program had some elements that were just as shitty as expected, but the functional education was good enough. She enjoyed Savannah, made life long friends (she's been in two weddings already), and had a great job lined up in the location of her choice months before graduation (and had several other offers).
She can afford a much nicer apartment now, is planning vacations, with a more affordable debt load she'll be able to knock off in a few years. She's very happy that emotions didn't rule the day.
Maybe she's not into racist architects.
Seriously though, is this level of parent involvement normal, or are you deeper in than most? I'm not sure my parents even knew I was applying to colleges back in the late 90s, and my kids are too young to be thinking about it yet.
maybe you should buy a swanky apartment and offer it as a gift if they attend uga. just spit ballin but even i find paying to attend alabama versus a full ride at uga outrageous — i suspect real reason is they wanted more miles from you
LOL. I'm sure that's part of it.
Sorry, I was a little unclear...it's free tuition at UGA or any Georgia public university with a certain GPA. We're still on the hook for room, board, living expenses etc, which still add the hell up.
Given that Georgia has very good universities, our deal with our kids is that you can go to any university in Georgia, or you can go to any other university that will cost us the same as a university in Georgia. In other words...get a full tuition scholarship out of state (or private), we'll pick up the rest, and we're cool.
She was able to get a full tuition scholarship at Alabama that was automatic for a 32 ACT. So the cost was the same as UGA...just further away and not as good a school. But it was fine...she held up her part of the deal.
And GT is definitely the same deal, but didn't have the program of my oldest, and she probably didn't quite have the math scores. But my second one is at GT. But GT isn't a slam dunk to get into, the fact that she was rejecting UGA if she didn't get into GT was very frustrating...but luckily it didn't come to that. She had a pretty strong offer from Pitt that we probably could have made work.
I would say Russ's involvement is slightly to the higher end of most, but directly related to the prospects of that student. I would say any student who is a legit Ivy/Stanford prospect will have parents at LEAST as involved as Russ.
If your kid is looking 1-2 steps down from that, your involvement is 1-2 steps down, like mine.
But the thing that pretty much forces a parent to get heavily involved is the finances. You can't just leave your kid to their own devices unless you're cool with them signing up for $100k+ in loans. It's a different day, and while you can still work your way through an AA at community college, the days of being able to pay for a major university education at a place like FSU with a summer job and delivering pizzas...that's long gone for all but a handful of kids. Few kids can make the $15-40k they need to pay their way through school in a summer job.
Where I break from many parents is the admissions part. I was heavily involved in the "how is this getting paid for" part and how that played into where they went. But many parents are equally involved in the admissions part...pushing them through test prep, researching who gets in where, making sure they're involved in all the right application boosting activities, etc to get them into the school of choice. Many parents are agonizingly involved with that part too.
That's not me. We had frank talks about what it would take to get into schools on their list, up to and including the elites. And to get the type of merit aid that would allow them to actually attend. But after that...it was up to them. No pushing by me on that front. If they're not self motivated to join enough clubs, or prep the SAT enough times, put in 1000s of volunteer hours...then it is what it is. I'm not doing them any favors by FORCING them through that. I only vaguely checked in on that they were making their applications, but didn't review them or anything.
My oldest was kind of a "just enough" person like me, but was never about doing anything extra, so she ended up with "just enough" options. The second one was much more self motivated, and got herself into GT by using Khan Academy until she raised her SAT from 1310 to 1540. I didn't know what she was doing until it was over and I was like WTF?
My son...I don't even know if he's "just enough". He's probably smarter than the other two even when it comes to pure testing, but as a rising junior he doesn't seem interested in doing anything extra at all to boost his options. I think whatever score he gets is going to be what he gets.
I think he's figuring he'll go to GT, but I'm not sure he appreciates that it will be a lot harder for a boy to get into GT than it was for his sister. The plus side is that GT has an excellent legacy program for siblings...if you don't get in, you can take one year of core classes at another school and are guaranteed transfer admission in with a 3.0 or something.
hawkeyetraveler
HB Heisman
This type of discussion was a daily occurrence for the last 12 months amongst the parents of my oldest’s friends. Pretty much everyone was working out where and how to get the best education for their kids, essays they need to write, how to position athletics, etc. The year before that it was SAT/ACT tutors, which AP classes to take, etc. It was a two year journey for us.
I promise I'm not trying to be rich message board guy, but don't most middle class + families have college funds? Our kids are only 7 and 3, but at this point I'm not particularly worried about paying for their education. They both have well-funded (and still growing) 529 accounts and, provided our incomes at least maintain pace with tuition inflation, it won't be an issue to supplement them from that.
I know that's not the case for a large portion of the country, but I feel like those of us who post here are generally middle class or above.
Sure, but “can afford to pay” is a different question from “what’s smart to pay.”
We have planned ahead but I don’t want to pay $60-70k a year per child if i don’t have to. Especially for a waste of a degree or one that that can be had in-state for a third of that cost.
That's fair. I was more intrigued by @Nole Lou's point about an 18 year old left to take on $100K+ in debt without the parents being involved. Maybe I'll be wrong, but I've tried to forecast 529 contributions to the point that money won't be a factor in college choice.
Talent and hardwork usually separate people, not their college choice.
(but for situations where everything else is equal -- it usually isn't -- then sure, the name on a resume would confer a boost)
To answer your question? No, I wouldn't take on significantly more debt.
(but for situations where everything else is equal -- it usually isn't -- then sure, the name on a resume would confer a boost)
To answer your question? No, I wouldn't take on significantly more debt.
Most families can't cover a $1k unexpected expense, so no, they don't have tons saved for college.
No, I don't think most people have $250k per kid saved up, on top of retirement. That's quite a nut. That's probably what you need to be able to say "go wherever you want."
We had three kids, we started having in our early 20s. We didn't have anything extra to save for at least 10 years, and even when we started it wasn't the kind of saving that was going to give us three quarters of a million dollars in 18 years anyway.
Once we could start putting real money away, that's been going to our retirement, rather than our kids educations. If we can get them through good schools debt free, and retire at a decent age, then we'll be in a position to be there for them when we they have kids. My father is 70 and he's still working, my mother was working at 65 when she died. They were both still working full time when my kids were growing up.
I want to be retired, and take the kids for a week so they can go on vacation. Or rent a beach house where all the kids can bring their families. That's where I'm putting my money. Not exclusively...like I said, I'm still anted up for about $60k per kid for college, which in any previous time in history would be incredibly generous, but makes me the Grinch today.
as things stand (the student loan racket) tuition inflation will require the 529 be better funded than 401k. only glimmer is that online edu may (small possibility) come of age and to the public’s rescue.
I'm probably a little deeper into than most, but a lot less so than some of the other parents in our school/district.
Some of these parents are controlling every aspect of their kids' lives - class schedules, extracurriculars, summer work, tutors, test prep, college visits, etc, etc. Some of these kids have had their lives completely planned out for them - they're more of just a participant who goes when/where they're told. I don't think that's healthy, and I think it's why there's a teen suicide problem. These particular kids have only ever been shown a "Plan A" that's been meticulously crafted for them. The second something bad happens they're completely unprepared to deal with it, and if it derails their Plan A, that's when they can't cope or overcome the adversity.
As for me, I'm real good at gathering information, parsing through data, etc. to come to the best objective/logical conclusion. This isn't purely an objective decision, but elements are, so I try to help a lot with that - all of the quantitative stuff. She's got quite an Excel spreadsheet going! I also want to help her be able to see as many campuses as we can, because I always thought that's one thing my parents could've done differently. I saw two colleges, and went to one of them. Had I seen more, maybe I'd have seen something else I might've liked better. Mostly we've just worked them into side trips for vacations.
Real talk? Yes, she has a 529 plan set up. But in reality it's dramatically under-funded.
Professionally, my career has always been kind of "high risk/high reward". I've always been willing to accept a higher level of risk than some others might. As a result I've been laid off I think six times. Some of those times I've seen coming and could plan for - others not so much. So, after one time in particular it took longer than anticipated to find the next gig, so we have to go out and gather all of the money we had saved in different places to keep things going. While we've since been able to go back and try to get back on track with retirement savings, we haven't done as well at rebuilding the college savings.
Such is life sometimes. We're in a spot where we can cover some of college, but not the $75k/yr that Duke is charging. That's why we've been trying to teach her that it's a value equation, not just going to the best possible school (although I get the draw for that too). I plan to show her this full thread so she can see what people who aren't her parents (because we obviously know nothing!) are saying.
Neither my wife and I had parents who attended college in the traditional sense and therefore had no guidance whatsoever. So we try to strike a balance between guiding and sharing what we learned the hard way and not being overbearing or controlling. Bottom line, my wife and I have decided the kids have to want it more than we do. And, trust that there are opportunities all over the place.
I was one of the smart kids who always did the bare minimum. Always disliked school, but turned out fine. So at least that’s some consolation whenever the kids seem like they are slacking.
My son got into an ivy and decided to go to Iowa. 72k a year is a lot of money for an undergraduate degree. He can go to an ivy for grad school if he needs the contacts. Considering he doesn't want to live in the northeast US it doesn't really matter much. The rest of the country doesn't care nearly as much about pedigree of school especially.in the Midwest
I don't know about that. An ivy league school undergraduate degree opens doors for sure across the country including the midwest, with name recognition, unless maybe you're talking about Brown. People do care. I think an ivy would be worth it if he isn't planning on med/law school, and maybe a few other professional colleges. But as stated before, law/med schools are what count, and many of the best of those are not ivy league.
From what I see, ivies offer need based aid only. But are the terms (for fee calculations) fixed for the entire 4 years or revisited every year? Example-- parents have decent income and agree to foot the entire bill with zero aid but in the 2nd or 3rd year suffer a steep drop in income perhaps from job loss, does the university re-do fee calculations?
OP-- no intent to hijack your thread, but this looked like a good place to ask.
OP-- no intent to hijack your thread, but this looked like a good place to ask.
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