Effort

[eyesofhawk]

"For the norm to be everyone giving maximum effort at all times, it has to be a product of coaching. Practices have to be challenging in a way that lifts the team and its individuals to a to a standard level of effort that they didn't know they had. Players have to be pushed and held accountable."

Are you talking about Division 1 level basketball players or 7th graders? The latter, I'll give you. The former, BS. I don't give a crap if they don't know how to block out, fight through a screen, close out on shooter, double team, switch, or whatever (none of which is true because at some point since they picked up a basketball at age 5 they've been introduced to these concepts). And while effort can be encouraged or the lack thereof by a player can be pointed out, a player, at this level, should be ready to give maximum effort on both ends of the court for every game. They don't get a pass because their coaches can't coach. That's an excuse-ridden, loser mentality. "Well, we would have worked harder, but we weren't told to do so." Uh . . . No.

And it has nothing to do with whether they're getting paid or not. They are subject to the same criticism whether they get paid or not. I'm the one paying to watch them play or taking time out of my evening to watch them play. You want me to watch, then I expect my favorite team to give top effort every game. That's the deal. That's an expectation I have as a fan, completely independent of them getting paid. And when it appears to me they're not doing so, then I'm going to criticize their effort. Joe DiMaggio said it best when asked why he plays so hard, “Because there’s always some kid who may be seeing me for the first time. I owe him my best.” Coaches, coach like that. Players, play like that. Very simple.

I agree, max effort should be a given.

But it is clearly something that can be developed to higher and more consistent levels through coaching. Again, why have so many programs adopted an all defense/all the time culture?

What makes certain guys better defensive coaches than their peers?

What makes certain teams play harder than their opponents every year?

What makes certain guys better offensive coaches than their peers?

Why don't players just play perfect on offense on their own on most teams? Because it hasn't been coached into them

 

[eyesofhawk]

What constructive purpose do positive conversations serve?

Thanks Margret or is it Karen?

Still no answer to a clearly stated question

 

[ISUBryce]

Still no answer to a clearly stated question

I don’t know. That’s my answer. I don’t think any constructive purpose is served in any way in a message board.

 

[BrotherHawkeye]

I agree, max effort should be a given. Agreed.

But it is clearly something that can be developed to higher and more consistent levels through coaching. Again, why have so many programs adopted an all defense/all the time culture? Because they've been successful doing so. And I don't even disagree that a coach can call upon a player to do better, and bench a player if it's not being done, but that does not immune a player from criticism for not giving the effort that led to him being benched. Which I read to be your point - don't blame the players if they're not giving effort, blame the coaches. That I disagree with.

What makes certain guys better defensive coaches than their peers? Because they have seen results from it, and believe in it.

What makes certain teams play harder than their opponents every year? Because those teams attract like-minded players and/or those are the types of players that are recruited to be there, and if you aren't made up to do so, you won't fit in. It's not a part time job.

What makes certain guys better offensive coaches than their peers? Because they have seen results from it, and believe in it. Same as above.

Why don't players just play perfect on offense on their own on most teams? Because it hasn't been coached into them Because on offense you must know what play is being called and be in the right place to run an offense. It's proactive. Defense is reactive. Yes, coaching is involved, but it's more want to than offense. You don't get on the BTN highlight show because of your strong close outs on a three point shooter, but it must be done.

See above.

 

[eyesofhawk]

I don’t know. That’s my answer. I don’t think any constructive purpose is served in any way in a message board.

Well, I can certainly see how the negativity can be destructive

 

[eyesofhawk]

See above.

Players aren't immune. But when discussing something that hasn't been part of a program's identity for 15 years, it would seem that identity is the first thing that should be questioned.

There is an answer to the concerns that should be obvious enough for the players to not have come into question.

You think Iowa has recruited 15 years worth of players that don't give max effort, aren't mentally tough, don't play with physicality? You don't think a Calvin Sampson practice is more difficult than a Fran practice? That's just wrong. Part of emphasizing and building a defense is it makes tougher players. Fran actually coaches his players to let layups go, rather than fouling in certain spots. You think Sampson would ever do that? It's a culture that produces tough players

 

[BrotherHawkeye]

Players aren't immune. But when discussing something that hasn't been part of a program's identity for 15 years, it would seem that identity is the first thing that should be questioned.

There is an answer to the concerns that should be obvious enough for the players to not have come into question.

You think Iowa has recruited 15 years worth of players that don't give max effort, aren't mentally tough, don't play with physicality? You don't think a Calvin Sampson practice is more difficult than a Fran practice? That's just wrong. Part of emphasizing and building a defense is it makes tougher players. Fran actually coaches his players to let layups go, rather than fouling in certain spots. You think Sampson would ever do that? It's a culture that produces tough players

Didn't say that.

Don't know, haven't been to either one. How is a Sampson practice more difficult than a Fran practice?

 

[iahawkeyes17]

Man, you guys can be dense.

What constructive purpose does the negative conversation serve?

If you can't come up with one, then maybe expressing your opinions on here isn't as important as you make it out to be.

Maybe it isn't the right thing to do at all. Because I can tell you the destructive potentialities of the negativity

It’s called pointing out reality. Do you think when people get work evals it’s all positive here is what you are great at? No you point out what is wrong too and areas to improve. You think Luka Garza become an nba player by just listening to everything he was great at? No after being npoy he and his dad worked and got evaluations on everything he needed to improve on like improving foot speed, outside shooting to make the league.

So when people point out on a message board Iowa’s rebounding and effort is bad (+300 nationally) it’s a simple fact and stating if that improves, team improves. Also there are years in Fran era like 17-18’ when Iowa was #2 in big 10 in rebounding margin. So does Fran or players get credit for that year? Or for coaching Garza and aaron white #2 & 4 rebounders in team history?

 

[Hawk-A-Doodle-Doo]

There's a lot of stuff in this thread that sounds suspiciously like criticism of coaches.

But that can't be. It's common knowledge that Iowa coaches are infallible, and anyone who disagrees obviously doesn't know anything about sports, isn't a true fan and is dumb.

️

 

[eyesofhawk]

It’s called pointing out reality. Do you think when people get work evals it’s all positive here is what you are great at? No you point out what is wrong too and areas to improve. You think Luka Garza become an nba player by just listening to everything he was great at? No after being npoy he and his dad worked and got evaluations on everything he needed to improve on like improving foot speed, outside shooting to make the league.

So when people point out on a message board Iowa’s rebounding and effort is bad (+300 nationally) it’s a simple fact and stating if that improves, team improves. Also there are years in Fran era like 17-18’ when Iowa was #2 in big 10 in rebounding margin. So does Fran or players get credit for that year? Or for coaching Garza and aaron white #2 & 4 rebounders in team history?

Who does pointing out your version of reality serve?

 

[iahawkeyes17]

Who does pointing out your version of reality serve?

Don’t worry I won’t point out their awesome effort tonight. Instead let’s applaud them. They tried their best and losing to the worst team in the conference.

 

[eyesofhawk]

Don’t worry I won’t point out their awesome effort tonight. Instead let’s applaud them. They tried their best and losing to the worst team in the conference.

Still no answer to a simple question

 

[iahawkeyes17]

Still no answer to a simple question

I explained mine. You didn’t like the answer doesn’t mean there wasn’t one. Still waiting to hear yours…

 

[LetsGoHawks83]

They had great effort in the final 5 minutes.

That's all you need to win, right?

No?

 

[eyesofhawk]

I explained mine. You didn’t like the answer doesn’t mean there wasn’t one. Still waiting to hear yours…

Who does pointing out your version of reality serve?

 

[iahawkeyes17]

Who does pointing out your version of reality serve?

Same as yours and your middle school mindset.

Or what does your point of a novel (with multiple untrue statements) of thread serve?

 

[eyesofhawk]

Same as yours and your middle school mindset.

Or what does your point of a novel (with multiple untrue statements) of thread serve?

Still no answer

 

[iahawkeyes17]

Still no answer

I did, nice deflection.

If you can’t figure out the concept of a message board that’s on you bud. Let alone from the guy who post a multiple paragraph thread then gets upset when people disagree with it and respond to anyone who post a dissenting opinion. Seriously what did you expect when your posted this thread that everyone was just going to jump on board and be like you’re so right?

Which btw after last nights performance and effort put forth by the players your post didn’t age well…

 

[TampaHawkfan]

Games like last night.. How many times have we seen it? Iowa sleepwalks through the first 35 minutes of the game, then makes their furious comeback late. NW, Nebraska, Minnesota this year off the top of my head. Apparently were down 20 to Minnesota last year, and made their big comeback. The miracle comeback against MSU a couple years ago, and so on.

Sure, I think this is at least partially on Fran to light a fire if he feels the team needs it, but I make no apology for questioning whether the effort is what it needed to be the first 35 minutes of the game last night. Argue all you want, but the players do not get a 100% free pass on this.

The only criticisms that I feel cross the line are when things start getting personal. I've seen a lot of venom directed at certain players in past years, both hoops and football. Comments about a player(s) level of play are fair game.

 

[eyesofhawk]

There's a lot of stuff in this thread that sounds suspiciously like criticism of coaches.

But that can't be. It's common knowledge that Iowa coaches are infallible, and anyone who disagrees obviously doesn't know anything about sports, isn't a true fan and is dumb.

️

I did, nice deflection.

If you can’t figure out the concept of a message board that’s on you bud. Let alone from the guy who post a multiple paragraph thread then gets upset when people disagree with it and respond to anyone who post a dissenting opinion. Seriously what did you expect when your posted this thread that everyone was just going to jump on board and be like you’re so right?

Which btw after last nights performance and effort put forth by the players your post didn’t age well…

Yeah, I get some of the confusion here.

I struggled with whether or not to start this thread because I'm not trying to call anybody out. It's just that I really hate the effort of the players being questioned, and felt some distinctions needed to be made.

I just don't understand where some of your expectations/reactions are coming from. It seems many of you don't understand that it isn't possible for Iowa to ever have a better than above average season on defense under Fran. Really, they aren't built to even be average on D.

Just like it isn't possible for Iowa to ever have worse than a below average season on offense under Fran. And really, they aren't built to be as low as average on offense.

That's how important coaching is, and how much a college program will take on the identity of its coach. For these players to be called out, for the same things that have been happening for 15 years at Iowa, is silly.

Which brings me to Fran. Do I think he should be fired? No. Do I think demands need to be made (by Beth) for improvement on D? Almost certainly, yes. Would I rather someone else be Iowa's coach? Yes. But this is the only time you're going to hear me say that, as it's for the purpose of trying to make this next point.

I post quite often on the football board. But basketball is by far my favorite sport. It means so much more to me than football. Coached it for many years, and for most of my life, basketball has been my life.

But the reason you don't find me posting very often on the basketball board is essentially because I don't have much nice to say, because I can't get past the defense. Fran has done a lot of respectable stuff at Iowa, and he has very clear strengths. But given the serious nature that I look at the game with, I just don't see many basketball conversations that don't include defense. Kind of like "run the ball." So I try to keep my thoughts to myself.

For me to multiply negativity in the Hawkeye community, if anything, only makes it harder for my team to win. I don't care that the negativity can get to the players and coaches; and at times it does. I care that when it does get to them, it can make them play worse. If I'm trying to protect anything, I'm trying to protect to the team's best chances to win, for my own selfish purposes.

I am a Hawkeye fan, which means my role is to support the Hawkeyes. Doesn't matter if it's a Lickliter team. Broadcasting complaints to the public doesn't serve anybody or any constructive purpose. If anything, it only has destructive capabilities.

A lot of you don't agree that it's your role to support the Hawkeyes. And I don't agree that you are "fans." Something more like "consumers." It's the difference between "what can I do for them?" and "what can they do for me?" Just like in life, if you're expecting certain things from others, you're setting yourself up for disappointment.

Today's game also requires monetary support from the community to be able to compete. Do you think a constant spread of negativity in the community makes it more likely for people to feel good enough about the program to donate to it?

Do you think empty arenas help the performance of the team more than full arenas do?

Community and team morale matter. A negative community doesn't ever contribute to a better life for those within the community.

Even if you don't think it's your role to support the team, I think we can agree that, "what can I do for me?", makes sense. And if you want to give your team its best chance to win, for your own selfish purposes, doesn't supporting them, or at least laying off of the negativity, make some sense? Do we not strive to act correctly and consciously in life?

To the habitually negative posters, thank you for your passion for the Hawkeyes. Please find some other ways to vent

 

[eyesofhawk]

Games like last night.. How many times have we seen it? Iowa sleepwalks through the first 35 minutes of the game, then makes their furious comeback late. NW, Nebraska, Minnesota this year off the top of my head. Apparently were down 20 to Minnesota last year, and made their big comeback. The miracle comeback against MSU a couple years ago, and so on.

Sure, I think this is at least partially on Fran to light a fire if he feels the team needs it, but I make no apology for questioning whether the effort is what it needed to be the first 35 minutes of the game last night. Argue all you want, but the players do not get a 100% free pass on this.

The only criticisms that I feel cross the line are when things start getting personal. I've seen a lot of venom directed at certain players in past years, both hoops and football. Comments about a player(s) level of play are fair game.

You're making my point for me.

The more examples from other seasons you can site, the more it points to something other than this season's players.

And falling behind/coming back in games can go far beyond effort

 

[onionman1]

Yeah, I get some of the confusion here.

I struggled with whether or not to start this thread because I'm not trying to call anybody out. It's just that I really hate the effort of the players being questioned, and felt some distinctions needed to be made.

I just don't understand where some of your expectations/reactions are coming from. It seems many of you don't understand that it isn't possible for Iowa to ever have a better than above average season on defense under Fran. Really, they aren't built to even be average on D.

Just like it isn't possible for Iowa to ever have worse than a below average season on offense under Fran. And really, they aren't built to be as low as average on offense.

That's how important coaching is, and how much a college program will take on the identity of its coach. For these players to be called out, for the same things that have been happening for 15 years at Iowa, is silly.

Which brings me to Fran. Do I think he should be fired? No. Do I think demands need to be made (by Beth) for improvement on D? Almost certainly, yes. Would I rather someone else be Iowa's coach? Yes. But this is the only time you're going to hear me say that, as it's for the purpose of trying to make this next point.

I post quite often on the football board. But basketball is by far my favorite sport. It means so much more to me than football. Coached it for many years, and for most of my life, basketball has been my life.

But the reason you don't find me posting very often on the basketball board is essentially because I don't have much nice to say, because I can't get past the defense. Fran has done a lot of respectable stuff at Iowa, and he has very clear strengths. But given the serious nature that I look at the game with, I just don't see many basketball conversations that don't include defense. Kind of like "run the ball." So I try to keep my thoughts to myself.

For me to multiply negativity in the Hawkeye community, if anything, only makes it harder for my team to win. I don't care that the negativity can get to the players and coaches; and at times it does. I care that when it does get to them, it can make them play worse. If I'm trying to protect anything, I'm trying to protect to the team's best chances to win, for my own selfish purposes.

I am a Hawkeye fan, which means my role is to support the Hawkeyes. Doesn't matter if it's a Lickliter team. Broadcasting complaints to the public doesn't serve anybody or any constructive purpose. If anything, it only has destructive capabilities.

A lot of you don't agree that it's your role to support the Hawkeyes. And I don't agree that you are "fans." Something more like "consumers." It's the difference between "what can I do for them?" and "what can they do for me?" Just like in life, if you're expecting certain things from others, you're setting yourself up for disappointment.

Today's game also requires monetary support from the community to be able to compete. Do you think a constant spread of negativity in the community makes it more likely for people to feel good enough about the program to donate to it?

Do you think empty arenas help the performance of the team more than full arenas do?

Community and team morale matter. A negative community doesn't ever contribute to a better life for those within the community.

Even if you don't think it's your role to support the team, I think we can agree that, "what can I do for me?", makes sense. And if you want to give your team its best chance to win, for your own selfish purposes, doesn't supporting them, or at least laying off of the negativity, make some sense? Do we not strive to act correctly and consciously in life?

To the habitually negative posters, thank you for your passion for the Hawkeyes. Please find some other ways to vent

We all get it: Any point of view that doesn't align with yours is a negative one. Please stop trying to act like you're more observant than others. Follow your own advice- find some other way to vent.

 

[stanzithemanzi12]

Enough. The effort isn't there on the defensive end. Watch Iowa State play defense. Watch Kansas. Yes, they have better players, but they have better habits and expectations of what defense looks like.

Some of our players lack the foot quickness and size, and others lack one of those aspects as well as effort.

I can't count how many times I've seen players BE IN POSITION and still not box out.

I can't count how many times I've seen players lack hustle closing out.

It is an effort problem as well as a skill problem.

 

[eyesofhawk]

We all get it: Any point of view that doesn't align with yours is a negative one. Please stop trying to act like you're more observant than others. Follow your own advice- find some other way to vent.

I'm not venting.

I'm trying to educate people to not do things that can potentially make it harder for my team to win

 

[eyesofhawk]

Enough. The effort isn't there on the defensive end. Watch Iowa State play defense. Watch Kansas. Yes, they have better players, but they have better habits and expectations of what defense looks like.

Some of our players lack the foot quickness and size, and others lack one of those aspects as well as effort.

I can't count how many times I've seen players BE IN POSITION and still not box out.

I can't count how many times I've seen players lack hustle closing out.

It is an effort problem as well as a skill problem.

I'm not denying the that it takes more effort than Iowa gives to be successful at defense.

But those "habits and expectations" are achieved through an every day mentality, teaching, drilling, accountability, emphasis. Effort has to be cultivated to a higher and more consistent level by the staff. Why do you think some coaches are better defensive coaches than others?

Boxing out has to be drilled into your team for it to be an automatic, as well. It doesn't take effort to box out. It takes habit and accountability. Then add in, as I've previously mentioned, Fran actually teaches his players in some spots to not block out. They aren't getting milage out of that approach. It's too complicated, and has been a net negative.

Same with the closeout rules. Iowa's rotations are bad almost every year. Two examples of how effort can be misinterpreted in closeouts have already been given in this thread

 

[grayhair81]

Well the negativity thing will take care of itself when fewer and fewer people show up to games. And if the players come to forums like this, shame on them.

Is it OK to boo NBA players and question their dedication? There are no amateurs in D1 today.

 

[eyesofhawk]

Well the negativity thing will take care of itself when fewer and fewer people show up to games. And if the players come to forums like this, shame on them.

Is it OK to boo NBA players and question their dedication? There are no amateurs in D1 today.

Players coming on this board or not has nothing to do with it being a contributor, spreader, and multiplier of negativity in the community.

Plus, you guys say the same things in public settings.

Negative/positive environment can also be a thing in the NBA. It's more the energy within the plane and the building that mimics the fishbowl community that it Hawkeye athletics.

Again, it's not a freedom of speech issue.

Does the negativity make it more likely or less likely that the Hawkeyes will play at optimal level?

Does a healthy environment make it more likely or less likely that the organisms within it will grow?

 

[Bulldogs1974]

Players coming on this board or not has nothing to do with it being a contributor, spreader, and multiplier of negativity in the community.

Plus, you guys say the same things in public settings.

Negative/positive environment can also be a thing in the NBA. It's more the energy within the plane and the building that mimics the fishbowl community that it Hawkeye athletics.

Again, it's not a freedom of speech issue.

Does the negativity make it more likely or less likely that the Hawkeyes will play at optimal level?

Does a healthy environment make it more likely or less likely that the organisms within it will grow?

your concern is misplaced. what is said on a message board has no bearing on the quality of play on the court. If it does: we have the wrong coach and players. Find me one message board that is free of criticism.
How ever did OSU win a national title after losing to Michigan.

 

[eyesofhawk]

your concern is misplaced. what is said on a message board has no bearing on the quality of play on the court. If it does: we have the wrong coach and players. Find me one message board that is free of criticism.
How ever did OSU win a national title after losing to Michigan.

What is posted on here gets repeated in public settings every day. This board is a contributor to the overall "mental health" of Hawkeye nation.

A toxic community may or may not end up getting to the players. Most of the times it doesn't. But no toxic community is good for the people within it. If anything, it can only hurt.

Two things:
1. The negativity of the community is heard by the players, whether it affects them or not. There's no escaping it. A random person on campus will pass by and say, "hey, maybe try rebounding." Family members are really tough in a sport like basketball. Dad will always be talking crap about a certain teammate or coach. The players are far too nice, and far too slow to tell Dad to shut up. At the end of every high school season, coaches get surveyed and asked their least favorite part of the job. Every year they answer it's dealing with the community and family. College sports aren't much different, as coaches probably don't love dealing with the media and the community.

2. Coaches also have given us feedback on the value of support. How many championship coaches do you hear thanking every last person in their community for coming together and being all-in? It matters.

Positive and negative energy is felt by the team. Why do teams have cheerleaders? They aren't there for their own entertainment

 

[grayhair81]

What is posted on here gets repeated in public settings every day. This board is a contributor to the overall "mental health" of Hawkeye nation.

A toxic community may or may not end up getting to the players. Most of the times it doesn't. But no toxic community is good for the people within it. If anything, it can only hurt.

Two things:
1. The negativity of the community is heard by the players, whether it affects them or not. There's no escaping it. A random person on campus will pass by and say, "hey, maybe try rebounding." Family members are really tough in a sport like basketball. Dad will always be talking crap about a certain teammate or coach. The players are far too nice, and far too slow to tell Dad to shut up. At the end of every high school season, coaches get surveyed and asked their least favorite part of the job. Every year they answer it's dealing with the community and family. College sports aren't much different, as coaches probably don't love dealing with the media and the community.

2. Coaches also have given us feedback on the value of support. How many championship coaches do you hear thanking every last person in their community for coming together and being all-in? It matters.

Positive and negative energy is felt by the team. Why do teams have cheerleaders? They aren't there for their own entertainment

Suppression of speech and ideas is a facet of fascism, mon feuhrer

 

[stanzithemanzi12]

I'm not denying the that it takes more effort than Iowa gives to be successful at defense.

But those "habits and expectations" are achieved through an every day mentality, teaching, drilling, accountability, emphasis. Effort has to be cultivated to a higher and more consistent level by the staff. Why do you think some coaches are better defensive coaches than others?

Boxing out has to be drilled into your team for it to be an automatic, as well. It doesn't take effort to box out. It takes habit and accountability. Then add in, as I've previously mentioned, Fran actually teaches his players in some spots to not block out. They aren't getting milage out of that approach. It's too complicated, and has been a net negative.

Same with the closeout rules. Iowa's rotations are bad almost every year. Two examples of how effort can be misinterpreted in closeouts have already been given in this thread

I know a decent amount about basketball. Can anyone in their right mind tell me why you'd teach someone to not box out? The only thing I can think of is to get be an outlet to get the ball out quickly in transition.

 

[eyesofhawk]

I know a decent amount about basketball. Can anyone in their right mind tell me why you'd teach someone to not box out? The only thing I can think of is to get be an outlet to get the ball out quickly in transition.

Yeah, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me either.

The "hit and get" technique was used by some strong rebounding MSU teams and has too widely been attempted to be copied.

It's a technique originally designed for perimeter players that focuses on attacking the ball rather than a prolonged engagement in the box out. Obviously, MSU had the athletes to attack the ball.

It's meant to keep the ball from hitting the floor on long rebounds and shortening the time that the ball could be up for grabs.

I think a lot of coaches have over applied its teaching, which confuses responsibilities. And I don't think it's an appropriate technique for the shorter/less athletic team.

It can be hard to keep a bigger guy on your back and pursue the ball. Usually, as soon the the defender loses contact, the bigger offensive player gains the advantage. This has been the impetus for some coaches to teach the technique even in the paint.

In that situation I prefer where essentially the defender remains attached and allows his teammates to clean up the board. If boxing out is a team habit, then every offensive player gets accounted for in one way or another, and ball pursuit instinctually kicks in once the offensive player is not a threat to rebound.

Fran has talked about teaching the hit and get. And his interpretation seems to be crashing bodies to the lane. But if the bodies are out of position, giving up position through lack of box out accountability, or lack height/athleticism, they still aren't coming up with the board. How often do we see 3 Hawkeyes vs 1 opponent under the boards, none of them take out the opponent's body, and the more athletic opponent ends up with the rebound? That should NEVER happen.

It's basically a technique that has complicated a simple responsibility