People don’t seem to care about facts anymore Fran...only emotion, feels, and political point scoring.
Expect a HUGE lawsuit from father whose 7 yr old died from dehydration
- Thread starter Franisdaman
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People don’t seem to care about facts anymore Fran...only emotion, feels, and political point scoring.
Wrong. That's why "people" are asking for an investigation here. To establish the "facts".
What do any of those have to do with whether CPB agents treated captives promptly and adequately?
As I've already stated: during darker times in our nation's history, dehumanization of people led to them dying while incarcerated due to local force abuses.
Let's make sure that's not happening here.
If the US government arbitrarily decides "YOU" have "made bad choices all your life", is that justification for them to prevent your child from having adequate emergency medical care?
Because that seems to be your position here.
"Let that guy's kid die, bro - he made lots of bad choices in life. Eff him"
All of your assumptions make you an ASS.
I have just stated the facts.
The father put his daughter's life in the hands of smugglers.
He did not qualify for asylum. So why put his daughter's life in jeopardy by making the dangerous journey in the first place? He is going to be deported in the end.
You are making ASSUMPTIONS that it was the US Govt's fault that this girl died when in fact the father put the girl's life in jeopardy several times during the journey to the US border.
Why are you putting all the blame on the US Govt with no facts? Biased much?
No; you just stated a bunch of unrelated facts.
Find out if the CPB agents actually DID follow proper procedures, because that's their job.
Unrelated facts? Seriously?
if they are unrelated facts, why are the USA Today and other media outlets reporting these facts?
You are not only biased but you are no longer making sense.
@swagsurfer02 , an fyi:
The facts, Joe?
Seems like you are ignoring them.
This man has been making bad choices all his life; you can see it documented here:https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ed-impoverished-guatemala-village/2329713002/
Those bad choices?
* He can't afford kids yet he has 3. I am sure many of us either don't have kids or have just one. Why? Because we are responsible and know what we can afford.
* Jakelin’s family says her father paid a human smuggler to sneak them across the border. Again, it's in the story linked above. Talk about putting your 7 year old in immediate danger.
* Asylum wasn’t the plan, per Jakelin's family. Again, it's in the story linked above.
* This man made the journey despite the fact that those fleeing poverty or economic hardship alone do not qualify for asylum. Though it may be understandable that those living in extreme poverty, barely surviving on just a few dollars per day, would make the trek north in search of a better life, if they cannot prove that they are fleeing persecution, they will not be granted asylum.
@swagsurfer02 , an fyi.
I know some of you like to throw US workers under the bus before knowing all the facts simply because of who occupies the White House.
Nevertheless, here are some excerpts from some more good reporting by the AP/USA Today. And as you will see, the father had no complaints about how agents treated him and his daughter.
Shortly before a 7-year-old Guatemalan girl died in U.S. custody, her father signed a form stating that his daughter was in good health. But it’s unclear how much the man understood on the form, which was written in English and read to him in Spanish by Border Patrol agents.
The death of Jakelin Caal highlights the communication challenges along the U.S.-Mexico border as agents come in contact with an increasing number of migrants who speak neither English nor Spanish.
Her father’s native language is the Mayan tongue known as Q’eqchi’. His second language is Spanish. It’s unclear whether something was lost in translation or whether it would have made a difference in saving Jakelin after the two were detained and underwent a health screening along a remote stretch of U.S.-Mexico border. But the case raises questions about the Border Patrol’s use of English-only forms.
All agents are required to speak Spanish, and they receive formal Spanish training. Reading forms in Spanish is often enough to pose basic questions. But some other Spanish-speaking migrants reported signing paperwork that they later said they did not understand.
Jakelin and her father, Nery Gilberto Caal Cuz, were part of a group of 163 migrants arrested Dec. 6 near a border crossing in New Mexico. Hours later, they were placed on a bus to the nearest Border Patrol station, but Jakelin began vomiting and eventually stopped breathing. She later died at a Texas hospital.
Border Patrol officials on Friday said agents did everything they could to save the girl but that she had not had food or water for days. An initial screening showed no evidence of health problems, they said, and her father spoke to them in Spanish and signed a form indicating she was in good health.
The father’s lawyers said Caal took care of his daughter, giving her sufficient water and food, and she appeared to be in good health.
Tekandi Paniagua, the Guatemalan consul in Del Rio, Texas, spoke with Jakelin’s father and said the two had walked with the other migrants for about 90 minutes before crossing and Caal told him he had no complaints about how agents treated him and his daughter.
Caal speaks broken Spanish. In his impoverished village in Guatemala, Spanish is needed only occasionally, such as when the community deals with schools and health care or for work, Paniagua said.
More than two dozen languages are spoken in Guatemala, and the consulate tries to send interpreters as soon as possible to help detained migrants, Paniagua said. But sometimes by the time they get there, the migrants have already signed forms.
“We’ll ask, ‘Do you speak Spanish?’ And they’ll say yes,” he said. “Then we’ll ask, ‘But do you understand Spanish?’ And often they’ll say, ‘No, I need an interpreter.’”
Caal asked the Guatemalan consulate in Texas, which had reached out to him, if he could see his daughter one last time before her body was sent back to her homeland. That request prompted special arrangements at a private funeral home on Friday, when he said goodbye to Jakelin.
The consulate asked him if he wanted an interpreter who could explain everything, including the repatriation of her body, in Q’eqchi.’
He said he did. After listening to the interpreter, Paniagua said, Caal thanked the consulate and said “he felt more comfortable in his own language.”
LINK: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...hts-communication-problems-border/2334355002/
I know some of you like to throw US workers under the bus before knowing all the facts simply because of who occupies the White House.
Nevertheless, here are some excerpts from some more good reporting by the AP/USA Today. And as you will see, the father had no complaints about how agents treated him and his daughter.
Shortly before a 7-year-old Guatemalan girl died in U.S. custody, her father signed a form stating that his daughter was in good health. But it’s unclear how much the man understood on the form, which was written in English and read to him in Spanish by Border Patrol agents.
The death of Jakelin Caal highlights the communication challenges along the U.S.-Mexico border as agents come in contact with an increasing number of migrants who speak neither English nor Spanish.
Her father’s native language is the Mayan tongue known as Q’eqchi’. His second language is Spanish. It’s unclear whether something was lost in translation or whether it would have made a difference in saving Jakelin after the two were detained and underwent a health screening along a remote stretch of U.S.-Mexico border. But the case raises questions about the Border Patrol’s use of English-only forms.
All agents are required to speak Spanish, and they receive formal Spanish training. Reading forms in Spanish is often enough to pose basic questions. But some other Spanish-speaking migrants reported signing paperwork that they later said they did not understand.
Jakelin and her father, Nery Gilberto Caal Cuz, were part of a group of 163 migrants arrested Dec. 6 near a border crossing in New Mexico. Hours later, they were placed on a bus to the nearest Border Patrol station, but Jakelin began vomiting and eventually stopped breathing. She later died at a Texas hospital.
Border Patrol officials on Friday said agents did everything they could to save the girl but that she had not had food or water for days. An initial screening showed no evidence of health problems, they said, and her father spoke to them in Spanish and signed a form indicating she was in good health.
The father’s lawyers said Caal took care of his daughter, giving her sufficient water and food, and she appeared to be in good health.
Tekandi Paniagua, the Guatemalan consul in Del Rio, Texas, spoke with Jakelin’s father and said the two had walked with the other migrants for about 90 minutes before crossing and Caal told him he had no complaints about how agents treated him and his daughter.
Caal speaks broken Spanish. In his impoverished village in Guatemala, Spanish is needed only occasionally, such as when the community deals with schools and health care or for work, Paniagua said.
More than two dozen languages are spoken in Guatemala, and the consulate tries to send interpreters as soon as possible to help detained migrants, Paniagua said. But sometimes by the time they get there, the migrants have already signed forms.
“We’ll ask, ‘Do you speak Spanish?’ And they’ll say yes,” he said. “Then we’ll ask, ‘But do you understand Spanish?’ And often they’ll say, ‘No, I need an interpreter.’”
Caal asked the Guatemalan consulate in Texas, which had reached out to him, if he could see his daughter one last time before her body was sent back to her homeland. That request prompted special arrangements at a private funeral home on Friday, when he said goodbye to Jakelin.
The consulate asked him if he wanted an interpreter who could explain everything, including the repatriation of her body, in Q’eqchi.’
He said he did. After listening to the interpreter, Paniagua said, Caal thanked the consulate and said “he felt more comfortable in his own language.”
LINK: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...hts-communication-problems-border/2334355002/
Does anyone know if BORSTAR was involved, or did they just put her on a bus for a 90 mile ride and wish her good luck? It sounds like BORSTAR deals with these kinds of emergencies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_Patrol,_Search,_Trauma_and_Rescue
Border Patrol, Search, Trauma and Rescue
The Border Patrol Search, Trauma, and Rescue Unit (BORSTAR) is a specialized unit of the United States Border Patrol trained in emergency search and rescue. It primarily assists injured or stranded migrants who enter the United States illegally from Mexico at remote desert locations.
The BORSTAR national headquarters is in El Paso, Texas, and units are stationed in each southwest Border Patrol sector.[1][2]
History[edit]
BORSTAR training, 2006
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BORSTAR diver surveys the bridge of sunken ship Black Bart off the coast of Panama City, Florida.
Rappelling on Mount Lemmon, 2011
Officials in the Border Patrol's San Diego Sector asked for permission to start a rescue team to help agents and civilians who needed assistance. BORSTAR was created in 1996 in response to the growing number of migrant deaths along the Mexico–United States border.
In 1999, a BORSTAR training academy opened in Tucson, Arizona, and in 2001, the unit added rescue dogs.[1][2]
Training[edit]
BORSTAR is composed of volunteer agents from the U.S. Border Patrol. After serving two years, agents may apply to attend the five-week training course. BORSTAR members learn rescue techniques, land navigation, communications, teamwork, tactical medicine, swiftwater rescue, and air operations. They also obtain their basic-level certification as an Emergency Medical Technician. Some members receive additional specialized training which may include watercraft rescue, boat operations, cold weather operations, paramedic training, and SCUBA diving.[1]
Scope of operations[edit]
In addition to assisting migrants, BORSTAR units have helped hikers, motorists, and other Border Patrol agents in need of rescue.[2] BORSTAR units have responded toFEMA requests for assistance, including Hurricane Katrina rescue operations.[3]
The Border Patrol states that "situations vary in difficulty from simply locating victims and providing them with water to complex rescues requiring agents to rappel into remote canyons to assist victims and extract them by helicopter."[1]
What does negate the asylum claim is this:
This man made the journey despite the fact that those fleeing poverty or economic hardship alone do not qualify for asylum. Though it may be understandable that those living in extreme poverty, barely surviving on just a few dollars per day, would make the trek north in search of a better life, if they cannot prove that they are fleeing persecution, they will not be granted asylum.
May not be a statute (I never said it was so this is you once again distorting facts), but it’s a clear indication any asylum request within the US is nothing short of a charade and BS. Asylum is to escape persecution (and such). The moment they passed into Mexico they were void of any persecution. Seeking asylum from Mexico is nothing shy of laughable. Hence, any and all requests from asylum seekers via Mexico should be denied within seconds.
So you're basing your argument on things that are not actual law then. Talk about distorting facts.
I never said it was law, I said BS and a charade. There are a lot of things that are not against the law but still are BS and a charade. You complain all the time about “fake news “but that’s not necessarily against the law either.
Why do you keep repeating this lie, and saying you've proven it to be true. Applying for asylum is a separate act from entering the US.
https://thehill.com/opinion/immigra...oes-not-make-illegal-entry-into-america-legal
Aren't you the poster that claimed Trump has already been "officially charged with two felonies"?
I'm not sure complaining about people posting things that aren't facts is a good idea for you.
@Franisdaman, you probably should change the title of this thread. Sepsis shock, not dehydration.
This changes pretty much everything.
This changes pretty much everything.
Actually, I am showing what's being reported. I am not afraid of the facts.
You, conversely, make stuff up and now the only thing you have left is name calling.
Thanks for showing your true colors.
"But I like to ignore the facts which might undermine my argument".
Nowhere have I stated that "CPB killed this girl".
I've stated that they have a pattern of some agents engaging in behavior to "punish illegal immigrants and asylum seekers". And the dehumanization of these people is the first step in the abuses that lead to bad outcomes.
I've advocated a full investigation to ensure that didn't happen here. A "signed statement", written in English that the father likely didn't understand isn't considered "evidence", and we have something known as "Miranda law" that is factually based on. And we KNOW that CBP and other agencies have routinely had immigrants signing papers they didn't understand the consequences of (particularly relating to having their children separated from them and subsequently 'lost').
If our CBP agents followed their rules and requirements for people in their care to the letter, then this is simply a bad outcome. But let's make sure that's what happened first.
I’m not quite sure why you expected that the government should have issued a statement about the girl’s death even before the press found out. You’ve never demanded that before.
Hundreds of migrants die every year while trying to cross into the U.S. Dozens of them die in Border Patrol custody. Did you ever expect the Obama administration to preemptively issue a statement on every migrant death?
What makes you think this didn’t already happen or isn’t happening? What makes me think that an investigation that turns up no wrong doing will satisfy your lust for illegals?
You probably still think Kavanaugh is a rapist despite numerous investigations turning up nothing of the sort and many indubitably proving his innocence. But that doesn’t work for you because those investigations weren’t up to par with you either because they didn’t provide the outcome you wished.
What does that have to do with my point?
We already know CBP/DHS separated young children from their parents by getting them to "sign papers" they didn't understand - then subsequently "lost" those children.
And they didn't do any 'investigation' until the media picked up on it. There are still hundreds still separated/missing and w/o public oversight calling them out on it, perhaps NONE of them would have been reunited.
If you are going to arrest someone, you accept the responsibility of their health while in your custody/care. So if CBP did nothing wrong here, then people like you shouldn't be freaking out about an independent investigation - inclusive of interviewing the family and others in the group.
If the DHS policy is to not comment on border deaths then why did they comment on this one?
What debate? Who’s having a debate? I don’t think “debate” means what you think it means if you think I’m having a debate with anyone.
And yet your thread title contains at least two glaring mistakes based on assumptions and not facts.
Expect a huge lawsuit from a negligent father who murdered his (alleged) child while illegally entering the United States (Who responded expeditiously to the illness and did everything they could to save the child) from Guatemala and is requesting asylum despite passing through Mexico first. ????
What is being reported and the facts:
* He is lawyered up.
* Dehydration was reported as a condition that led up to her death. Obviously an autopsy will determine exact cause.
Hence my thread title.
