I'm pretty sure you're not educable, but I'm going to try. Read this:
https://www.safeplumbing.org/health-safety/lead-in-plumbing
Flint
- Thread starter What Would Jesus Do?
- Start date
https://www.safeplumbing.org/health-safety/lead-in-plumbing
I love it! So the answer is yes, the Romans actually did use lead pipe. So much fun the way that worked out.
Well yeah, but a lot of American cities STILL use it . Some 100% per the article. Mainly because it would cost a young fortune to replace. Nothing wrong with lead pipes as long as you don't run highly acidic water through it. RESPONSIBLE cities use lime or orthophospates to prevent the lead leaching into the water. Unfortunately, cities (like Flint) being run by a Republican appointed manager forgo the lime and orthophosphates to save a buck. And children grow up brain damaged. Thanks, Mr. Reagan.
Lots of us on the left are critical of the EPA. But there's a difference. We think it needs better funding, better staffing and a stronger mandate. This may be an example of one of those failings emerging in the questionable behavior of one individual. But it wasn't the EPA who made the bad decisions and failed to care about the harm.I have now read a few more accounts of this problem and I have not read anything that would cause me to think of the EPA "contribution" as an alternative explanation, just another broken piece of a complex situation. One that does appear to reflect poorly on a variety of people, both R's and D's. FWIW, one of the articles I read that also referenced a breakdown at the EPA was from the Huffington Post, hardly a bastion of conservatism or Republican thoughts.
My takeaways at this point are:
1. This malfeasance may well need to be addressed by criminally charging the wrongdoers and people that covered this up...regardless of what party they are in.
2. Government, in and of itself, is not the be all, end all answer to all problems. Here it appears multiple levels of government failed and failed in a serious way. Government oversight and regulations, etc, guarantee the citizens very little when they too are corrupt and/or impervious to accountability.
A few folks here and some on the right I've read or heard elsewhere seem to be trying to deflect and place the blame on the EPA, which is already in their crosshairs. That's why I raised the concern I did.
Stand in a public restroom and watch how many people fail to wash their hands after they wipe. Same thing IMO. Our bodies are designed to handle the ingestion of a little poop. Hell, my dog loves it!!!!
This is close to my understanding but I have not heard all the R & D talk. I believe there are State, Municipal, and Federal people at fault. And a class action lawsuit has now been filed.
This is nothing short of criminal IMO. Any official who knew and failed to act should be charged. It is immoral in every way. I am sick & angry for the people of Flint.
http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2015/08/19/3693163/flint-michigan-water-shutoffs-injunction/
This exacerbated the entire problem in the first place. Once Flint residents realized you could not be shut off, they quit paying their bills. Creating an even larger problem (Although this article does not go into that little gem of human behavior).
This exacerbated the entire problem in the first place. Once Flint residents realized you could not be shut off, they quit paying their bills. Creating an even larger problem (Although this article does not go into that little gem of human behavior).
There are many parts of Michigan I would live in. Detroit, Flint and Saginaw are not on that list.
A little poop, yes. Runoff from industrial farms? Not so much.
Not to mention that poop isn't the only stuff in our water. So is all the pesticides and herbicides. But I suppose the body was made to ingest all that, too.
Michigan GOPer Investigating Flint Water Crisis Also Defending State Against Flint Lawsuit
Paul Sancya/ASSOCIATED PRESS
Michigan Attorney General Bill Schuette declined to investigate Flint's water issues in September.
WASHINGTON -- Last September, a Flint lawmaker asked Bill Schuette, Michigan's attorney general, to investigate whether government officials were to blame for exposing the city's citizens to dangerously high levels of lead in their drinking water. Schuette -- a Republican widely believed to have ambitions of running for governor in 2018 -- refused.
"Given the multiple reviews by federal and state agencies, and the pending and potential federal court actions, we do not believe it necessary to conduct an additional investigation," a Schuette staffer wrote on Dec. 22, almost three months after state Rep. Sheldon Neeley (D-Flint) sent his request.
But in the weeks after Schuette refused to investigate, national media attention on Flint increased, and on Jan. 14, Republican Governor Rick Snyder asked President Barack Obama to declare a federal emergency. The next day, Schuette had changed his tune. He said that he would launch an investigation "without fear or favor."
Schuette already represents some of the same people his office could end up investigating. His office is defending state officials in a lawsuit in which Flint citizens allege that state and local government officials ignored evidence that the water pumped from the Flint River was toxic and caused serious injury.
The lawsuit also names as defendants two of the state-appointed emergency managers who were in charge of Flint in 2014 and opted to use the Flint River as its water supply. Under state law, the attorney general has to represent emergency managers when they're sued, but the town the emergency manager ran has to cover the legal costs.
"The people of Flint -- who have been forever harmed by a succession of state-appointed managers -- now have no fair legal recourse from someone who is supposed to be the people's lawyer," state Sen. Jim Ananich (D-Flint) said in an emailed statement.
The people of Flint... now have no fair legal recourse from someone who is supposed to be the people's lawyer. State Sen. Jim Ananich
It's not unusual for state attorneys general to find themselves on different sides of the same case, said James Tierney, director of the National State Attorneys General Program at Columbia Law School.
"Attorneys general do this all the time," Tierney told The Huffington Post. Without commenting on Michigan specifically, Tierney said attorneys general have a lot of options for mitigating the appearance of a conflict. They could bring in outside counsel to handle a case, or have different lawyers within their office handle defense and prosecution. Schuette's office did not comment on whether it has taken the latter approach.
In high-profile cases such the Flint water crisis, the attorney general could be personally involved in both the investigation and the lawsuit, said Bruce Green, the director for the Louis Stein Center for Law and Ethics at Fordham Law School. Tierney pointed to a case in which the late Beau Biden, who was serving as Delaware's attorney general, abruptly switched from defending an embattled psychiatric center to investigating it.
"The way the system is set up, that happens quite frequently, where the attorney general has attorneys on both sides," said state Sen. Rick Jones (R). "I certainly think the attorney general of Michigan should investigate everything that went on, and if there was anybody at the [Michigan Department of Environmental Quality] that changed information or covered up information, if it's criminal, then certainly the attorney general should take action."
Deborah LaBelle, an attorney for the plaintiffs suing Michigan, nonetheless questioned whether Schuette can conduct an independent investigation when he's defending the state against charges of wrongdoing. "What is the attorney general doing investigating his clients?" she asked. "It doesn't even make sense."
Schuette's investigation only arrived when it was the "popular thing to do," said Nic Clark, the Michigan director of Clean Water Action, which promotes clean, safe and affordable water. "We want to know whose side is he really on."
"Bill Schuette’s biggest priority is Bill Schuette, so he will do whatever he thinks makes sense in his desire to succeed Rick Snyder as governor," said David Holtz, executive committee chair for the Michigan chapter of the Sierra Club, which called for an independent investigation in October. "The least likely thing Bill Schuette will do is to mount an aggressive pursuit of the facts," he added.
Schuette's office declined to provide comment for this story and would not say which Flint-related lawsuits the attorney general is defending.
Paul Sancya/ASSOCIATED PRESS
Michigan Attorney General Bill Schuette declined to investigate Flint's water issues in September.
WASHINGTON -- Last September, a Flint lawmaker asked Bill Schuette, Michigan's attorney general, to investigate whether government officials were to blame for exposing the city's citizens to dangerously high levels of lead in their drinking water. Schuette -- a Republican widely believed to have ambitions of running for governor in 2018 -- refused.
"Given the multiple reviews by federal and state agencies, and the pending and potential federal court actions, we do not believe it necessary to conduct an additional investigation," a Schuette staffer wrote on Dec. 22, almost three months after state Rep. Sheldon Neeley (D-Flint) sent his request.
But in the weeks after Schuette refused to investigate, national media attention on Flint increased, and on Jan. 14, Republican Governor Rick Snyder asked President Barack Obama to declare a federal emergency. The next day, Schuette had changed his tune. He said that he would launch an investigation "without fear or favor."
Schuette already represents some of the same people his office could end up investigating. His office is defending state officials in a lawsuit in which Flint citizens allege that state and local government officials ignored evidence that the water pumped from the Flint River was toxic and caused serious injury.
The lawsuit also names as defendants two of the state-appointed emergency managers who were in charge of Flint in 2014 and opted to use the Flint River as its water supply. Under state law, the attorney general has to represent emergency managers when they're sued, but the town the emergency manager ran has to cover the legal costs.
"The people of Flint -- who have been forever harmed by a succession of state-appointed managers -- now have no fair legal recourse from someone who is supposed to be the people's lawyer," state Sen. Jim Ananich (D-Flint) said in an emailed statement.
The people of Flint... now have no fair legal recourse from someone who is supposed to be the people's lawyer. State Sen. Jim Ananich
It's not unusual for state attorneys general to find themselves on different sides of the same case, said James Tierney, director of the National State Attorneys General Program at Columbia Law School.
"Attorneys general do this all the time," Tierney told The Huffington Post. Without commenting on Michigan specifically, Tierney said attorneys general have a lot of options for mitigating the appearance of a conflict. They could bring in outside counsel to handle a case, or have different lawyers within their office handle defense and prosecution. Schuette's office did not comment on whether it has taken the latter approach.
In high-profile cases such the Flint water crisis, the attorney general could be personally involved in both the investigation and the lawsuit, said Bruce Green, the director for the Louis Stein Center for Law and Ethics at Fordham Law School. Tierney pointed to a case in which the late Beau Biden, who was serving as Delaware's attorney general, abruptly switched from defending an embattled psychiatric center to investigating it.
"The way the system is set up, that happens quite frequently, where the attorney general has attorneys on both sides," said state Sen. Rick Jones (R). "I certainly think the attorney general of Michigan should investigate everything that went on, and if there was anybody at the [Michigan Department of Environmental Quality] that changed information or covered up information, if it's criminal, then certainly the attorney general should take action."
Deborah LaBelle, an attorney for the plaintiffs suing Michigan, nonetheless questioned whether Schuette can conduct an independent investigation when he's defending the state against charges of wrongdoing. "What is the attorney general doing investigating his clients?" she asked. "It doesn't even make sense."
Schuette's investigation only arrived when it was the "popular thing to do," said Nic Clark, the Michigan director of Clean Water Action, which promotes clean, safe and affordable water. "We want to know whose side is he really on."
"Bill Schuette’s biggest priority is Bill Schuette, so he will do whatever he thinks makes sense in his desire to succeed Rick Snyder as governor," said David Holtz, executive committee chair for the Michigan chapter of the Sierra Club, which called for an independent investigation in October. "The least likely thing Bill Schuette will do is to mount an aggressive pursuit of the facts," he added.
Schuette's office declined to provide comment for this story and would not say which Flint-related lawsuits the attorney general is defending.
Do you know anyone who either is or has been in prison for nothing more than marijuana possession?
Cedar Rapids from what I have heard, has water capacity equal to a city of 2 Million. Virtually all the water in CR is used in industry.
Some of you people (that's right, I said you people) are too far gone to have a rational discussion with.
As I understand it, the EPA acted (in some way) in July. So the real issue here is why did it take from Feb to July? The delay to April for confirmation might be reasonable. Should have been quicker but we're talking about an under-funded, under-attack agency. So maybe not quicker.
As I said before, I agree this needs to be looked at and the EPA person(s) may also belong in jail.
My main complaints are that
1) people are trying to shift the blame to the EPA, not merely add to the list of possible wrong-doers; and
2) the complaints are mostly coming from those who want to kill the EPA and have supported reducing it to its current crippled state.
Still waiting for people to explain to me how a less robust, less effective regulatory regime would have made things better, or sped up attention to this disaster.
I'd like to know why the people in charge of Flint were so anxious to get off of Detroit water in the 1st place.
There were government regulations in place that were deliberately ignored by an EPA official(s). What a clusterf#*k!!!
The people responsible should fry but instead there will just be clamoring for more government and more regulations, cuz' that's how 'Muricans roll.
In February 2015, months before Edwards helped expose the contamination, an EPA water expert named Miguel Del Toral identified potential problems in Flint’s drinking water, confirmed his suspicions in April, and summarized the crisis in a June internal memo. The memo was kept under wraps by EPA Midwest chief Susan Hedman and the analyst was forbidden from making his finding public, according to Edwards, who secured an embarrassing batch of EPA email via Freedom of Information Act requests.
Hedman concedes that her department knew as early as April about the lack of corrosion control in Flint’s water supply, but said her hands were tied by interagency protocol.
“Protocol?” Edwards told me. “She buried the memo and gagged the analysis while kids were being poisoned.”
Even Walling, a Democrat like Hedman, said he doesn’t understand why somebody at Obama’s EPA didn’t give him a heads up about Del Toral’s finding – even off the record – before Walling publicly testified to the water’s safety, chugging a glass of the poisoned liquid on television.
He rolled his eyes at Hedman’s suggestion that she needed a legal opinion on whether the EPA could force action.
“They hid it,” the Democrat said. “They knew and used the law as a shield against the truth.”
http://www.nationaljournal.com/s/352795/how-government-this-columnist-failed-michigan-city
Your government at work, folks.
There are regulations in place. But if the agencies that are there to regulate don't do their jobs, for whatever reason, I suppose we could add more layers of regulations and more agencies.
First off, the EPA does not directly regulate city water supplies. The Iowa DNR does. Cities have to sample and the DNR gets the results. I guess I need more background on this. Its just odd to me.
True ^^ But it is also worth mentioning that this was not merely a hard hearted move to just save money...Flint has been in financial crisis for several years. While none of this excuses the responsible parties related to the drinking water situation, it is valid to "pull the camera back" and realize that this city is screwed about 10 different ways.
Perhaps if the people running the show in Flint during the previous decades had not been inept, corrupt, etc, there would have never been a need for the state to essentially take them over and bail them out in the first place. There is plenty of fault to be found all over the political spectrum as to what all led to this current disaster. It is not so simple as there being a mean Republican Governor, etc.
OK. I have the story now. There was a failure somewhere in looking at the chemistry of the situation. Again, I am not sure why the EPA is getting beaten up over this, The State of Michigan should. I assume their DNR requires testing by local governments.
I find it interesting that Michigan does not use wells like we do. I guess I can understand somewhat with the great lakes there, but it would take more treatment.
I find it interesting that Michigan does not use wells like we do. I guess I can understand somewhat with the great lakes there, but it would take more treatment.
Of course Natural follows Cher on Twitter... I mean, I should have assumed.
Now as for people I don't know jailed for marijuana, here's the top 10 most outrageous cases:
http://clemencyreport.org/top-10-outrageous-marijuana-sentences/
http://clemencyreport.org/top-10-outrageous-marijuana-sentences/
While the sentences in your link certainly seem disproportionately harsh, none of them answer my question. The people in your link received harsh sentences for marijuana trafficking and for smuggling it into the U.S. from places like Mexico and Colombia. One guy was also convicted of money laundering. Another guy also was trafficking cocaine.
The photo in Parser's OP specifically said that people are in jail for having a dime bag of weed. Clearly the people in your link had quite a bit more than just a dime bag of weed.
So again I ask, do you know anyone who has ever spent time in prison for doing nothing more than having a dime bag of weed in his pocket?
The reality is Flint / Detroit area was the 'progressive model' of a future city. It's rated by some as the most liberal cities / areas in the country. There haven't been many if any elected R in this area since the 60's.
They ended up in this position because for years they had corrupt leftist running things. Both cities are now broke and trying to save money. Do you think the quality of water engineers is high when you're talking about cities where large chunks of the population don't pay their bills? Do you think the elected officials check the water directly? Of course not. But they do run cities & states into the ground to the point it's a giant cluster.
They ended up in this position because for years they had corrupt leftist running things. Both cities are now broke and trying to save money. Do you think the quality of water engineers is high when you're talking about cities where large chunks of the population don't pay their bills? Do you think the elected officials check the water directly? Of course not. But they do run cities & states into the ground to the point it's a giant cluster.
Another perfect example of what happens to people who say government can't run anything. They get to office and make sure that it can't run anything. You get what you vote for folks, and when you vote for people who have a vested interest in making something fail, you'll get what you ask for.
