France becomes first country to explicitly enshrine abortion rights in constitution

[Aardvark86]

while i'm not going to wade into the abortion is good/bad part of this debate, i do have a question i'm curious about (and about which i know nothing).

Is the French constitution hard to amend?

Separately, and not that this necessarily matters one way or the other here, if this is the first time it's been captured in a nation's constitution, doesn't that sort of suggest that international consensus would be that it isn't actually that fundamental a right?

 

[Gus is dead]

Yes; it is.

And the fetal heart does not pump the blood until birth. Prior to then, it is provided by the placenta and host heart.

Wrong. You need to educate yourself my friend.

The mothers heart supplies blood and oxygen to the myometrium (uterus muscle) then to the fetal placenta then to the fetal heart. Which pumps blood throughout the fetus.

So the fetal heart suddenly kicks in right at birth? LOL.

You should sit this one out for your own good. You look like more of a fool than normally you do. This is above your pay grade Cletus.

 

[seminole97]

Sure. What's your point?

Not all forms of population control are equal.

 

[Gus is dead]

Google that, if you need a medical "refresher".

How 'bout you google it? Wait, Ill save you some time.

heartbeat

Definition of heartbeat in the Medical Dictionary by The Free Dictionary

medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com

 

[Joes Place]

How 'bout you google it? Wait, Ill save you some time.

FUNFACT: 6-week-old embryos do not have a formed heart

 

[Joes Place]

How 'bout you google it?

the regular movement or sound that the heart makes as it sends blood around your body:

heartbeat

1. the regular movement or sound that the heart makes as it sends blood around…

dictionary.cambridge.org

 

[Gus is dead]

Google that, if you need a medical "refresher".

Let me draw you a picture regarding sound.

So....sound that is played through a speaker from a computer sensing motion via a detector and relaying that as an electrical signal to a computer that then sends it to that speaker which then makes another vibrating wave isn't actually sound?

What if we had this magic thing that sensed sound, which is a vibration moving as a propagation of a wave in a space, that could detect this motion and then, via an electrical or chemical signal, send it to a 'computer' that was registered as a signal and sensed as a 'sound'? Would that then be sound?

 

[Joes Place]

The mothers heart supplies blood and oxygen to the fetus.

Yes. That's what I'd posted for you.

 

[Gus is dead]

the regular movement or sound that the heart makes as it sends blood around your body:

heartbeat

1. the regular movement or sound that the heart makes as it sends blood around…

dictionary.cambridge.org

Ok. Sure. What if we had a way or detecting said 'movement'? .......Which is right there in your link.

And lets start with this is more of a laypersons definition btw.

 

[Joes Place]

So the fetal heart suddenly kicks in right at birth? LOL.

The fetal heart closes off the atrial chambers at/after birth.

The heart is not fully formed in utero.

 

[Joes Place]

Ok. Sure. What if we had a way or detecting said 'movement'?

We do; but the "beat" comes from the sound. That you check with a stethoscope.
You can even hear abnormal "beats" from valve defects/murmurs.

 

[Gus is dead]

The mothers heart supplies blood and oxygen to the fetus

Yes. That's what I'd posted for you.

Ha. Yes via a placenta and then the fetal heart. And you seem to have editied out part of what I said conveniently.

Dude, your losing badly here. Might wanna just walk away. Fight another day.

My actual quote:
The mothers heart supplies blood and oxygen to the myometrium (uterus muscle) then to the fetal placenta then to the fetal heart. Which pumps blood throughout the fetus.

Your version of my quote.
The mothers heart supplies blood and oxygen to the myometrium (uterus muscle) then to the fetal placenta then to the fetal heart. Which pumps blood throughout the fetus.
Nice truncation. Typical liberal tactics BTW.

 

[Gus is dead]

The fetal heart closes off the atrial chambers at/after birth.

The heart is not fully formed in utero.

And your brain is not fully formed yet either and you're 75.

 

[Gus is dead]

We do; but the "beat" comes from the sound. That you check with a stethoscope.
You can even hear abnormal "beats" from valve defects/murmurs.

Reply to post 207 please. Clown show.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Not all forms of population control are equal.

No, and not all are good. Which might have been your point, but apparently wasn't.

Not everyone agrees that abortion is an acceptable form of birth control but an awful lot of us do. Maybe not the preferred form, but acceptable if other forms fail.

Whereas hardly anyone agrees that genocide is an acceptable form of population control - even when other forms fail. Although we've seen plenty of it anyway - Germany, Cambodia, Turkey, US, Australia, Israel, and more.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

And your brain is not fully formed yet either and your 75.

If you are going to be snarky about brain function, you should probably check your spelling.

I say that as someone who has embarrassed himself in exactly the same way.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Let me draw you a picture regarding sound.

So....sound that is played through a speaker from a computer sensing motion via a detector and relaying that as an electrical signal to a computer that then sends it to that speaker which then makes another vibrating wave isn't actually sound?

What if we had this magic thing that sensed sound, which is a vibration moving as a propagation of a wave in a space, that could detect this motion and then, via an electrical or chemical signal, send it to a 'computer' that was registered as a signal and sensed as a 'sound'? Would that then be sound?

You're working too hard. Time to concede the point and restate your position on the larger issue - since I and doubtless others have already forgotten.

 

[Gus is dead]

If you are going to be snarky about brain function, you should probably check your spelling.

I say that as someone who has embarrassed himself in exactly the same way.

Noted. Thx.

 

[Joes Place]

Ha. Yes via a placenta

Yes, that's how blood gets there, and circulates through the fetus.

 

[Joes Place]

Let me draw you a picture regarding sound.

So....sound that is played through a speaker from a computer sensing motion via a detector and relaying that as an electrical signal to a computer that then sends it to that speaker which then makes another vibrating wave isn't actually sound?

It's not a 'vibrating wave', Cletus.

The Ultrasound equipment FAKES the thumping sound, which has been posted for you at least 3 times now.

 

[Joes Place]

You're working too hard. Time to concede the point

He won't.

Because he cannot concede that an S-A node group of cells, which form LONG before the heart does, are NOT a "heartbeat".

 

[seminole97]

No, and not all are good. Which might have been your point

It was.
I was enjoying the conversation with @funksouljon earlier this thread on when life begins.
I notice an almost universal need for abortion proponents to de-humanize the targets of abortion.
Those perpetuating genocide often work to de-humanize their targets.

I was waiting for his next response to clarify which was ‘Position 3’ in the lecture he linked after I had a chance to read it.

When do you think human life begins?

 

[Gus is dead]

You're working too hard. Time to concede the point and restate your position on the larger issue - since I and doubtless others have already forgotten.

Im never conceding to Joe. He knows not of what he speaks. Like at all. Others can chime in like @JWolf74 and @Urohawk if additional corroboration is needed. In some cases, people discount my knowledge becasue Im a con. Pretty enlightened of them Id say.

Bottom line, the science is what it is and he's wrong about what he asserts in more than one post. Badly wrong.

He can claim what he wants about abortion and viability but this idea that a fetus' heart doesn't pump and doppler isnt about heartbeat detection is uninformed. Im being kind here.....

 

[Joes Place]

Im never conceding to Joe.

Despite being shown that the ultrasound companies fake the noises you hear (the "thump" sounds do not even match what the US actually picks up, in case you were unaware).

 

[Gus is dead]

He won't.

Because he cannot concede that an S-A node group of cells, which form LONG before the heart does, are NOT a "heartbeat".

The SA nodal signal is not the heartbeat. I didnt say that. The muscle contraction that results from SA nodal firing that moves blood however, is.

Thats all I am going to say about it from here on out. You can't argue with stupid clearly.

 

[Joes Place]

The SA nodal signal is not the heartbeat. I didnt say that. The muscle contraction that results from SA nodal firing that moves blood however, is.

Which isn't formed at 6 weeks, when "fetal heartbeat bills" attempt to apply.

 

[Gus is dead]

Yes, that's how blood gets there, and circulates through the fetus.

Nope. It's how the oxygen gets there. Placenta is like a lung of sorts. The blood doesnt mix. Thats why you can have a baby with one blood type and a mother with another and not have an immune reaction.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

I notice an almost universal need for abortion proponents to de-humanize the targets of abortion.

It's a seemingly universal human behavior to dehumanize those they wish to harm, exploit, enslave, abuse, torture, kill....

But I'm not sure this criticism is a good fit in the case of abortion. Is it dehumanizing to say that something is not a baby when, in fact, it is not a baby?

 

[Gus is dead]

Despite being shown that the ultrasound companies fake the noises you hear (the "thump" sounds do not even match what the US actually picks up, in case you were unaware).

Its a wooshing sound btw. Not a thump.

Just a quick search and heres an example you could have found easily.

 

[Joes Place]

Its a wooshing sound btw. Not a thump.

So, NOT a "beat".

 

[Joes Place]

Its a wooshing sound btw. Not a thump.

Just a quick search and heres an example you could have found easily.

View embedded media

Congrats.

You just confirmed what I'd already posted for you.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Im never conceding to Joe. He knows not of what he speaks. Like at all. Others can chime in like @JWolf74 and @Urohawk if additional corroboration is needed. In some cases, people discount my knowledge becasue Im a con. Pretty enlightened of them Id say.

Bottom line, the science is what it is and he's wrong about what he asserts in more than one post. Badly wrong.

He can claim what he wants about abortion and viability but this idea that a fetus' heart doesn't pump and doppler isnt about heartbeat detection is uninformed. Im being kind here.....

Seems like an argument over the definition of heartbeat.

Personally I find dueling-definition arguments unhelpful. Especially in this case, when it doesn't make sense to me that the presence of a heartbeat should be the cutoff point for whether to permit or deny an abortion. What's so special about a heartbeat - however you choose to define it?

I mean if what you're saying is that we need a cutoff so you're going to pick an arbitrary point, and the arbitrary point you're going to pick is the heartbeat, which you're going to define as pulsing electrical activity in some particular node . . . well then, you can certainly make that arbitrary decision. And so can society, if it wants to - but it hasn't.

I doubt many people are happy to settle this with an arbitrary call. Seems like it's too important to just be arbitrary.

Can we do better?

 

[Gus is dead]

Seems like an argument over the definition of heartbeat.

Personally I find dueling-definition arguments unhelpful. Especially in this case, when it doesn't make sense to me that the presence of a heartbeat should be the cutoff point for whether to permit or deny an abortion. What's so special about a heartbeat - however you choose to define it?

I mean if what you're saying is that we need a cutoff so you're going to pick an arbitrary point, and the arbitrary point you're going to pick is the heartbeat, which you're going to define as pulsing electrical activity in some particular node . . . well then, you can certainly make that arbitrary decision. And so can society, if it wants to - but it hasn't.

I doubt many people are happy to settle this with an arbitrary call. Seems like it's too important to just be arbitrary.

Can we do better?

Im not arguing the point as it relates to abortion. I think aborting a live viable fetus is wrong with small exceptions allowed. D and C's for nonviable pregancies I am not opposed to. At all. I have plenty of knowledcge and experience in this area trust me.

My point here is that, per usual, Joe acts as if he has knowledge in an area he does not. And continually posts what he considers to be facts that are not. And rather than he focusing, as you suggest, on the topic as a whole, he backs up his usual BS when he is proven wrong, with more BS. That cannot stand. These days it's hard enough to get good information without muddying the waters with statement after statement, not of opinion, but flat-out falsehoods.

 

[seminole97]

It's a seemingly universal human behavior to dehumanize those they wish to harm, exploit, enslave, abuse, torture, kill....

But I'm not sure this criticism is a good fit in the case of abortion. Is it dehumanizing to say that something is not a baby when, in fact, it is not a baby?

When do you think human life begins?

 

[Aardvark86]

Im not arguing the point as it relates to abortion. I think aborting a live viable fetus is wrong with small exceptions allowed. D and C's for nonviable pregancies I am not opposed to. At all. I have plenty of knowledcge and experience in this area trust me.

My point here is that, per usual, Joe acts as if he has knowledge in an area he does not. And continually posts what he considers to be facts that are not. And rather than he focusing, as you suggest, on the topic as a whole, he backs up his usual BS when he is proven wrong, with more BS. That cannot stand. These days it's hard enough to get good information without muddying the waters with statement after statement, not of opinion, but flat-out falsehoods.

setting aside at what point our laws should regulate or not regulate things, i think this discussion is a nice metaphor for why this whole heartbeat thingy is an artificial red herring. Cellular fission occurs pretty much immediately, and last I checked, is a pretty decent indicator of 'life' for pretty much every other plant or animal organism on the planet. Indeed, taking religion completely out of it, it is pretty much the driver of the non-religious/amoral life-process we call evolution.

 

[Joes Place]

Im not arguing the point as it relates to abortion. I think aborting a live viable fetus is wrong with small exceptions allowed.

That means 24-26 weeks, after the lungs have fully formed.

 

[Gus is dead]

Viable can be used in a number of ways. I should have been more careful. And is subject to debate.

But to clarify, using the terms recommended in the article below for reference, I refer to pregnancy viability. As in having a 'heartbeat'

Note the following I have highlighted.

The Limits of Viability

The distinction between “pregnancy viability” and “fetal viability” indicates the need for care and clarity when using the term “viability” in clinical practice and guidance.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"In current times, obstetricians use the terms viability or viable in two contexts:

1. At or around the time a fetus can survive outside of the uterus. This is often called fetal viability. A viable fetus is contrasted with a fetus that cannot survive outside of the pregnancy.
2. When an embryo or fetus has a detectable heartbeat. This is generally considered pregnancy viability. A viable pregnancy is contrasted with a failed pregnancy."

 

[Joes Place]

But to clarify, using the terms recommended in the article below for reference, I refer to pregnancy viability. As in having a 'heartbeat'

Which is NOT "viability".

S-A node starts pulsing electrically at 6 weeks.

No heart yet. No lungs yet. Not "viable".

Viability occurs when the lungs are formed; preemies delivered before that happens (and the surfactants that keep the lungs open) are formed have a very low likelihood of survival.

24 weeks is a fully acceptable compromise. And ANY pregnancy complication should enable the right to terminate a pregnancy.

Neither YOU nor the government should decide for a woman what level of "risk" she needs to take on.

 

[Joes Place]

1. When an embryo or fetus has a detectable heartbeat. This is generally considered pregnancy viability. A viable pregnancy is contrasted with a failed pregnancy."

PLENTY of "natural" miscarriages occur after your "6 weeks heartbeat" timeframe.
And end up "not viable". Ergo, that is a very poor 'standard'.

 

[Gus is dead]

Which is NOT "viability".

S-A node starts pulsing electrically at 6 weeks.

No heart yet. No lungs yet. Not "viable".

Viability occurs when the lungs are formed; preemies delivered before that happens (and the surfactants that keep the lungs open) are formed have a very low likelihood of survival.

24 weeks is a fully acceptable compromise. And ANY pregnancy complication should enable the right to terminate a pregnancy.

Neither YOU nor the government should decide for a woman what level of "risk" she needs to take on.

Read the article I linked.