Your entire point is based on Spencer being hurt. Agreed - he is the best INJURED wrestler of all-time. However, didn't he take all his losses before he was hurt? And who of real quality has he beaten the past two years? The best 125 lb of all-time, we can agree on that. But not in the conversation for GOAT. There is zero data or evidence to back that claim up - other than being an Iowa fan. If he was a PSU or OKLA ST guy, there's NO WAY you would be saying he was the GOAT based on his career.
Historical Rankings college Wrestling
- Thread starter sunshinedynomite
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Very similar. Outside of Suriano, very similar. Courtney and Mueller were not as good as Eggum and Cormier.
I just stated a fact. Spencer did not redshirt and won a national championship as a true freshman. Carl did take a redshirt and did not win a national championship his true freshman year. He also took a loss that year. Not at practice, at a tournament, with coaches, fans, officials and scorekeepers. When the ref raised Carl's opponents hand at the end of the match, he officially loss the match.
And Gable is the Greatest of All Time
Good points but a redshirt is a redshirt and the loss isn’t on his record. Still 159-0. Gable was amazing and had a one tiny hiccup in his college wrestling career. Disagreements about who is the GOAT will never be resolved and they are all just personal opinions. That being said, if you haven’t been following this thread, you’re not a true Iowa Hawkeye wrestling fan if you don’t say Spencer Lee is the greatest wrestler ever. Hopefully you’re shocked by this as much as I was.
Someone who I'm surprised really hasn't been mentioned yet is Yianni. If he wins out this year for his 4th, he will have won 4 titles with only 2 losses, which is behind only Cael for the 4-timers. He also won one of his titles on a torn ACL, so he has the "injured wrestler" factor going for him as well. In fact, I think had he not lost to Gomez this year, there could be an argument that he was better than Cael, considering he would've only had one loss and it would've come in his first year out of high school and he later avenged it, much like Cael (only Cael's loss didn't count on his official record)
That said, Yianni did lose to Gomez this year, so he would have the distinction of being the only 4 timer who lost during his senior year. There's also the factor that he doesn't have the bonus percentage or the Hodge trophies like Spencer does, and he doesn't have the "wow" factor either (IMO). But also he does have a World Silver while still in college, so does that bump him up again?
It's an interesting debate for sure. Depending on how you weigh different factors and accomplishments can change the order you put these guys in
That said, Yianni did lose to Gomez this year, so he would have the distinction of being the only 4 timer who lost during his senior year. There's also the factor that he doesn't have the bonus percentage or the Hodge trophies like Spencer does, and he doesn't have the "wow" factor either (IMO). But also he does have a World Silver while still in college, so does that bump him up again?
It's an interesting debate for sure. Depending on how you weigh different factors and accomplishments can change the order you put these guys in
The mic drop should be after what sstark46 said...
All I know is that most of the best choices here wrestled for a college in the state of Iowa (and none in PA), so we win no matter what. 😉
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I don’t see this happening but if Starocci stays for 5 years and wins out, is he tops with 5 national championships and only 2 losses his freshman year? That would give PA a wrestler from that state and school a contender at least.
Exactly. Cael is certainly at the top, or just behind Hodge, but the "never lost" narrative surrounding Cael simply isn't true.
Hodge
Cael
Dake
Lee
Spencer was hurt coming out of high school, so all of his losses came after injury and while being injured or rehabilitating. Maybe the loss to Piccininni he was in the best health of any of his losses.
I just love watching Yanni. He's gumby damnit!
Nevertheless; the heretofore referenced argument is just plain rediculous.
Go look up Cael's bonus % then Yanni's. With a little more facts and perspective, I think you will be embarrassed.
No, he would not automatically be tops. Clearly he would be in the discussion. No one criteria rules. I can see cases where a wrestler with 3 titles is more impressive than one with 4, 0 losses less impressive than a guy with 3 losses, and so on. Level of competition (conference and at Nats), dominance of wins, integrity/class, overcoming injuries, and on and on. Fine to discuss, but can't believe anyone thinks they can objectively win the debate. Lots of GOATS out there, lots more to come (hopefully from Iowa).
Read my whole post before responding next time
I certainly wouldn't put Yianni (or anyone for that matter) over Cael as far as college careers go, just stated (with a no longer valid condition) that there could be an argument made. I think Yianni's loss to Gomez makes it all moot anyway.
Loss to piccinnini was actually when he was one of his unhealthiest overall.
As others have said, it’s all in the eye of the beholder. Is it NCAA titles? Career wins? Win %? Who you beat? Bonus wins? NCAA tournament dominance? Etc.
Personally, for all around, I go with Cael. Understood he redshirted and lost while on redshirt. But he checks all the boxes. Someone had asked earlier who he beat; a future world silver medalist and a future world bronze medalist.
Dake has moved up in my mind since this thread was started.
After Cael, it’s a crapshoot for me with all the names listed by others. But let me add one more name to it: Retherford. Ended his college career on a 93 match win streak, 81 of them by bonus. Show me a guy win 93 in a row again and I’ll reconsider his place among those after Cael.
Personally, for all around, I go with Cael. Understood he redshirted and lost while on redshirt. But he checks all the boxes. Someone had asked earlier who he beat; a future world silver medalist and a future world bronze medalist.
Dake has moved up in my mind since this thread was started.
After Cael, it’s a crapshoot for me with all the names listed by others. But let me add one more name to it: Retherford. Ended his college career on a 93 match win streak, 81 of them by bonus. Show me a guy win 93 in a row again and I’ll reconsider his place among those after Cael.
Yanni undefeated doesn't complete with Cael or Gable IMO. GOAT without dominance is empty.Read my whole post before responding next time
I certainly wouldn't put Yianni (or anyone for that matter) over Cael as far as college careers go, just stated (with a no longer valid condition) that there could be an argument made. I think Yianni's loss to Gomez makes it all moot anyway.
And I agree with that completely. All I was saying though is that some people may also point to his World Silver while still in college, or the fact that he won his first on a torn ACL just one year removed from high school, or maybe something else as their criteria for moving him up. It's all subjective, which makes for interesting discussion.
Personally, if Spencer and Yianni win out this year, I would rank the 4-timers (in terms of college careers only) as:
1) Cael
2) Spencer
3) Dake
4) Yianni
5) Stieber
6) Smith
Had Yianni not lost to Gomez this year, I would entertain moving him to number 2 and Spencer and Dake move down one
Retherford was obviously outstanding. However, you could say his competition was subpar outside of his one win over Stieber his freshman year. His next best wins are Deakin (former NC and 4 time AA), Sorensen (4 time AA), Lavion Mayes (3 time AA), Pantaleo (3 time AA) and Micah Jordan (3 time AA). Very good wrestlers but not anything close to Dake beating Taylor. You can only wrestle who steps on the mat but the lack of high end wins keeps Retherford a tier below others. IMO.
Had Zain redshirted his first year and then wrestled the next 4 all at 149, he likely is a 4-timer and maybe even goes undefeated.
However, without his 12 points in 2014, PSU doesn't win the team title, and the ~25 points he would've added in 2015 wouldn't have been enough for PSU to win the team title that year either. Interesting thought, would you rather give up a team title and have Zain be a 4-timer, or keep things as-is and Zain hurts himself a little bit in these all-time discussions with a 5th place finish but PSU keeps the 2014 team title?
Of course, maybe Cael doesn't redshirt other guys in 2015 with the team title in reach, so maybe it would be both things
I like the ranking of 4 timers but you should include some old school 3 timers who couldn’t compete as freshmen due to NCAA rules at the time. Hodge and Uetake were both undefeated as freshmen and most likely would have won 4 if allowed to compete.
1) Cael. 5) Yianni
2) Hodge. 6) Spencer
3) Uetake. 7) Stieber
4) Dake. 8) Smith
Probably will have a few more to add to the list soon but they will be in the bottom half of the list.
The days of wrestlers winning 150 to 160 matches in college are over. The overall trend of total matches wrestled throughout a career continues to get lower. May have to rethink your outlook because a 4 timer in the not so distant future may once again only have 80 matches or so. Personally I don’t put much stock in quality of opponent (nobody chooses their opponents unless their ducking) lol
I don't think anyone has ever asked this, so I will: can Iowa fans concede that Spencer has ever lost a match simply because he wasn't the better wrestler that day?
The Picc match specifically, I'll take Spencer's (paraphrased) word for it: "He stacked me up and took me over. Good for him". Picc was the better wrestler for those 5 minutes that day, and the official record shows it.
That said, Spencer isn't going to make excuses for his losses (those are for wusses, after all), but it's fair for the fans to defend him and the situations around where the losses came from
That day......Not a particularly meaningful question. The "better wrestler" does not always win on a given day for many reasons - sick, injured, other guy just lucky as shit, bad ref call, etc. So Carl was not the "better wrestler" the day he lost. Do you find that a meaningful conclusion? I don't think anybody that beat Spencer was a "better wrestler", even if they won that day.
And who did Cael beat that were National Champions.?
I am thinking Spencer Lee may have the opportunity to climb to the top of this list.
Top 10 all-time NCAA tournament point scorers.
https://www.flowrestling.org/articl...test-ncaa-wrestler-of-all-time-so-who-s-no-2-
Top 10 all-time NCAA tournament point scorers.
| RANK | NAME | POINTS |
|---|---|---|
| 1 | Cael Sanderson | 107.5 |
| 2 | Logan Stieber | 103.5 |
| 3 | Ed Banach | 102.5 |
| 4 | David Taylor | 99 |
| 5 | Mark Churella | 96.5 |
| 6 | Pat Smith | 96 |
| 7 | Ed Ruth | 94.5 |
| 8 | Kyle Dake | 93 |
| 8 | Alex Dieringer | 93 |
| 10 | Lincoln McIlravy | 90 |
| 10 | Jake Herbert | 90 |
https://www.flowrestling.org/articl...test-ncaa-wrestler-of-all-time-so-who-s-no-2-
Spencer has 76 tournament points. If he pins all five of his opponents on his way to a 4th title (and who would bet against it at this point) he’ll end up with 106 points. He can’t catch Cael.
BTW: this is tracked by Cali_Nittany on the PSU board at:
Penn State Wrestling Stats
I wanted to create this thread so that it can be a centralized resource for wrestling stats (with a focus on Penn State) and a place for people to add additional information. Penn State Wrestling team site > Click Here Current season stats and archived stats back to 2007-08 can be accessed...
pennstate.forums.rivals.com
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The eyeball test tells me Spencer is the best collegiate wrestler I’ve ever seen.
Ok guys this is kinda like talking to hard core Liberals. They have their opinions and you are not going to change them. Let them believe what they want I am done arguing over it. I have been watching this sport for over 30years and seen a lot of GREAT wrestlers. I can say without a doubt Spencer is the best I have ever seen live. He’s just that good. Break it down by teams if you want. Starfish might go down as the best psu for example but I would take Taylor over him in a heartbeat! I didn’t like Taylor mainly because what they did to Jenkins. That does not mean I don’t think he is the best to put on a psu singlet. You can have your opinion on the GOAT and I will have mine. Spencer Lee is the best wrestler I have seen live and believe someday somebody will come along and be as good or better.
Being an old guy gives me some advantage, so, speaking of the "eyeball test", I saw Gable wrestle in college, plus all of the other athletes cited in this example. No one comes as close to dominating guys as Gable did. Those double armbars were things of beauty. I will not disparage the other great wrestlers in this discussion, but Spencer's domination puts him in the top tier discussion.
I hope everyone understands that this AriesRam Asshat is in fact the Johnstownsteel POS, so do not feed the troll and just put it on ignore. He will prove me right in his next bunch of BS posts!
This guy was pretty good too.
pittjohnstownathletics.com
Carlton Haselrig (2009) - Hall of Fame - University of Pittsburgh at Johnstown Athletics
Carlton Haselrig, Class: 1989 Induction: 2009 Sport(s): Wrestling - Carlton Haselrig, a Johnstown, Pa. native, is the most decorated athlete
pittjohnstownathletics.com
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