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HORT Lawyers - College Internships?

NDallasRuss

HR Legend
Dec 5, 2002
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To all the esteemed HORT lawyers on the board - how do college summer internships work at you practice/firm?

Does your organization's website have a link to apply for internships?

Do you work directly with local/regional schools to identify interns?

Do you select mostly kids of employees, clients, and other key contacts?

The (no pics) kid has determined that she wants to go to law school following undergrad, so she's starting to look for summer internships. She doesn't have much experience w internships, nor do I. I know my company works with colleges, and also has a link for applying for internships, but I don't know if that's the same w pre-law/law internships.

And do you have any thoughts or opinions on the best kinds of internships to get good, relevant experience? Government vs corporate, vs small/large firms, etc? Any advice or guidance would be appreciated!

And, yes, I know this is an invitation for all kinds of jokes and comments about my kid, interns, my mom, etc. I welcome that as well, but hopefully there's some good information sprinkled in the responses.

Thanks in advance!
 
To all the esteemed HORT lawyers on the board - how do college summer internships work at you practice/firm?

Does your organization's website have a link to apply for internships?

Do you work directly with local/regional schools to identify interns?

Do you select mostly kids of employees, clients, and other key contacts?

The (no pics) kid has determined that she wants to go to law school following undergrad, so she's starting to look for summer internships. She doesn't have much experience w internships, nor do I. I know my company works with colleges, and also has a link for applying for internships, but I don't know if that's the same w pre-law/law internships.

And do you have any thoughts or opinions on the best kinds of internships to get good, relevant experience? Government vs corporate, vs small/large firms, etc? Any advice or guidance would be appreciated!

And, yes, I know this is an invitation for all kinds of jokes and comments about my kid, interns, my mom, etc. I welcome that as well, but hopefully there's some good information sprinkled in the responses.

Thanks in advance!
Watch the movie Legally Blonde. You should be able to get all the information you need from that movie.
 
What is she hoping to gain from it?

I don’t think I’ve heard of firms hiring any undergrad students as part of an official program (as compared to law firm summer clerk programs for law students).

Honestly, unless she already has an in and knows some partners who can make a place for her to do some file/clerical work, and just wants to get a feel for the vibe, I would just enjoy the summer and be ready to study for LSAT. Taking an interesting internship outside of the field of law (or volunteering doing anything with a local legal aid clinic or humanitarian org) would be much more helpful on a law school application than a random low-level position at a law firm. IMO.

Just some thoughts.
 
What is she hoping to gain from it?

I don’t think I’ve heard of firms hiring any undergrad students as part of an official program (as compared to law firm summer clerk programs for law students).

Honestly, unless she already has an in and knows some partners who can make a place for her to do some file/clerical work, and just wants to get a feel for the vibe, I would just enjoy the summer and be ready to study for LSAT. Taking an interesting internship outside of the field of law (or volunteering doing anything with a local legal aid clinic or humanitarian org) would be much more helpful on a law school application than a random low-level position at a law firm. IMO.

Just some thoughts.
Correct. Very few firms hire undergraduates as interns. They hire law clerks from law school and there are usually interviews done on campus. She could blindly send a resume and cover letter and see if that generates any response. She may be able to get a summer gig as a runner.

Practically, I’d tell her to attempt to identify what type of law she’s interested in (criminal, family, corporate, litigation, tax, etc) and try to get an understanding of day to day life. It is INCREDIBLY easy to get pigeon-holed in law. Basically, your first job will dictate a lot of what you do.

Being a lawyer sucks a lot of the time. It pays well but the job owns you. I loved law school and would recommend it to anyone. But, go as cheap / affordable as possible. I ran up well over six figures in student loan debt that forced me to take the high-paying shitty job instead of a lower paying more enjoyable job. It took me 22 years to pay off my loans. I’d strongly advise against this. If she wants the big firm, billable hour life, go for it. But let it be a choice instead of a necessity.
 
Volunteer/internships will not trump an LSAT score, but they'll separate her in the event her LSAT score and educational class are identical to her competition (that would be rare imo).

The most help that you can provide is to stack her up to the acceptance ranges for the top 14 law schools in the country and if she already eliminated herself with her undergrad choice and GPA before even taking the LSAT, find another profession.
 
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Firms generally do not hire undergrads. They simply don't have the requisite research and writing skills. She may be able to get an internship/job in one of the overhead departments like accounting or marketing if she wants to see how a firm functions. Another route is to contact reach out to a public policy/government type job. Lastly, non-paying judicial internship. Judges are always looking for free labor.
 
To all the esteemed HORT lawyers on the board - how do college summer internships work at you practice/firm?

Does your organization's website have a link to apply for internships?

Do you work directly with local/regional schools to identify interns?

Do you select mostly kids of employees, clients, and other key contacts?

The (no pics) kid has determined that she wants to go to law school following undergrad, so she's starting to look for summer internships. She doesn't have much experience w internships, nor do I. I know my company works with colleges, and also has a link for applying for internships, but I don't know if that's the same w pre-law/law internships.

And do you have any thoughts or opinions on the best kinds of internships to get good, relevant experience? Government vs corporate, vs small/large firms, etc? Any advice or guidance would be appreciated!

And, yes, I know this is an invitation for all kinds of jokes and comments about my kid, interns, my mom, etc. I welcome that as well, but hopefully there's some good information sprinkled in the responses.

Thanks in advance!
NDR,

I'm in BigLaw. Most BigLaw firms' summer internship programs are geared toward law students, and the paraprofessional hiring has become something more of a career path. One area where biglaw has perhaps expanded internships at the undergrad level is in the area of DEI initiatives designed to encourage diverse students to consider the legal pathway.

With that said, I see tons of law student resumes from kids who have had various legal-related summer internships during college. Typically, these are in the nature of paralegal-oriented positions where the work can be a bit of drudgery, but they do provide excellent opportunities to see what the practice of law looks like and to work on a close team. Most commonly, these are at smaller or medium sized firms -- and let me be very clear, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. In fact, there's a lot right with it, as you tend to get a more personal experience from a boss who genuinely needs and appreciates the help. Moreover, from my perspective, there are "right" and "wrong" answers to the question "why you want to go to law school/practice law?" and seeing in person how the profession works is an excellent way to help you make the right choice.

IF you could get something with a local judge (increasingly hard because law schools have become pretty good at putting their kids there if they didn't get a position otherwise, and you really do need some basic knowledge of procedure to support a judge), that's the best because the judges tend to be good people who take the time to explain to clerks and staff what is going on. After that, I'd say smaller firms and the G tend to be great for teaching. I'd actually put BigLaw last on the list, which is a bit against the traditional narrative.

Good luck to your child. It's still a noble path, and it'll always be a path where the talented will succeed.
 
Being a lawyer sucks a lot of the time. It pays well but the job owns you. I loved law school and would recommend it to anyone. But, go as cheap / affordable as possible. I ran up well over six figures in student loan debt that forced me to take the high-paying shitty job instead of a lower paying more enjoyable job. It took me 22 years to pay off my loans. I’d strongly advise against this. If she wants the big firm, billable hour life, go for it. But let it be a choice instead of a necessity.
I think this is really good advice. I loved law school and have loved my job almost every day in the 18 years I've been doing it. I don't work at a big firm so I make less but have more control over my life than I would if I chose a different path. I knew exactly what kind of law I wanted to practice when I graduated so I was able to tailor my classes to best prepare me to walk into court day 1 and be competent.

to answer your question, my office hires "summer help" which are usually the college aged children of our employees. I'm not really sure what they do to be honest. I try to avoid interns as much as I can. I'm not a good teacher. I also not good at letting other people do stuff for me so I'm a terrible mentor.
 
What is she hoping to gain from it?

I don’t think I’ve heard of firms hiring any undergrad students as part of an official program (as compared to law firm summer clerk programs for law students).

Honestly, unless she already has an in and knows some partners who can make a place for her to do some file/clerical work, and just wants to get a feel for the vibe, I would just enjoy the summer and be ready to study for LSAT. Taking an interesting internship outside of the field of law (or volunteering doing anything with a local legal aid clinic or humanitarian org) would be much more helpful on a law school application than a random low-level position at a law firm. IMO.

Just some thoughts.
Agreed. Undergrad students couldn't do anything of real value just in terms of malpractice insurance.
 
Firms generally do not hire undergrads. They simply don't have the requisite research and writing skills. She may be able to get an internship/job in one of the overhead departments like accounting or marketing if she wants to see how a firm functions. Another route is to contact reach out to a public policy/government type job. Lastly, non-paying judicial internship. Judges are always looking for free labor.
This is also true.
 
The most help that you can provide is to stack her up to the acceptance ranges for the top 14 law schools in the country and if she already eliminated herself with her undergrad choice and GPA before even taking the LSAT, find another profession.
This is preposterous. If she doesn’t go to a top 14 school, don’t go? Sure, if she wants to be a corporate lawyer for Goldman, she should go to Harvard or UVA.

But there are thousands of other employers that don’t care if you went to a top law school.
 
To all the esteemed HORT lawyers on the board - how do college summer internships work at you practice/firm?
In a big firm, you interview in the spring of your first year. If you go to a good law school, firms send people to do on campus stuff, usually alumni of these schools. Generally speaking, you have to be in the top 1/3 to sniff an internship at a decent firm.
Does your organization's website have a link to apply for internships?
No. Most firms don't take adhoc interns. There is a formalized process.
Do you work directly with local/regional schools to identify interns?
Yes.
Do you select mostly kids of employees, clients, and other key contacts?
Sometimes, but not all the time.
The (no pics) kid has determined that she wants to go to law school following undergrad, so she's starting to look for summer internships. She doesn't have much experience w internships, nor do I. I know my company works with colleges, and also has a link for applying for internships, but I don't know if that's the same w pre-law/law internships.

And do you have any thoughts or opinions on the best kinds of internships to get good, relevant experience? Government vs corporate, vs small/large firms, etc? Any advice or guidance would be appreciated!
Large firms obviously pay better but burnout rate is high, billable hours are exorbitant and making partner these days doesn't give you a financial windfall. Sometimes, boutique firms are better.

Got more questions? Ask.
And, yes, I know this is an invitation for all kinds of jokes and comments about my kid, interns, my mom, etc. I welcome that as well, but hopefully there's some good information sprinkled in the responses.

Thanks in advance!
I am an attorney so start the legal jokes.
 
This is preposterous. If she doesn’t go to a top 14 school, don’t go? Sure, if she wants to be a corporate lawyer for Goldman, she should go to Harvard or UVA.

But there are thousands of other employers that don’t care if you went to a top law school.
I know plenty of state school attorneys who are at those firms. You might be generally correct but not entirely true. It depends more on your class rank, not where you went.
 
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This is preposterous. If she doesn’t go to a top 14 school, don’t go? Sure, if she wants to be a corporate lawyer for Goldman, she should go to Harvard or UVA.

But there are thousands of other employers that don’t care if you went to a top law school.
This is preposterous. kids who go to Harvard don't have any interest in practicing law - let alone corporate law. They want to be judges or law professors -- or at the very least the assistant deputy undersecretary of something. Being burdened with "clients" is the last thing on their radar.
 
This is preposterous. kids who go to Harvard don't have any interest in practicing law - let alone corporate law. They want to be judges or law professors -- or at the very least the assistant deputy undersecretary of something. Being burdened with "clients" is the last thing on their radar.
Where do you think they start? I know lots of Harvard, Princeton, Yale Law school graduates who worked for the USAO’s SDNY Office out of school to get experience and then bolted for better money.
 
I know plenty of state school attorneys who are at those firms. You might be generally correct but not entirely true. It depends more on your class rank, not where you went.
Well, sure. I didn’t say it was impossible to get a job at a major firm if you went to a state school. But generally speaking, those firms like academic credentials and, head to head, the kid from Harvard is going to have a better shot than the kid from Tennessee. But nothing is black and white.
 
I would also look at corporate internships. I am an in-house attorney for a mega corp and our Legal group hires college interns each year to help with some of the paralegal type activities. They mainly recruit from local colleges so the college placement office can probably help flag any of those opportunities that come across.
 
Where do you think they start? I know lots of Harvard, Princeton, Yale Law school graduates who worked for the USAO’s SDNY Office out of school to get experience and then bolted for better money.
Yes, SDNY (or DDC, or Main Justice) is a common pathway, though it is rather shocking how ill equipped for corporate/firm life they often are when they come out. You can usually tell pretty quickly who will and who won't - it would be fascinating to see longitudinal data on that.
 
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Well, sure. I didn’t say it was impossible to get a job at a major firm if you went to a state school. But generally speaking, those firms like academic credentials and, head to head, the kid from Harvard is going to have a better shot than the kid from Tennessee. But nothing is black and white.
The kid from Harvard will always have an edge in every discipline including law. That's just an accepted fact. That's true in things like medicine to molecular biology. Doesn't mean the door is foreclosed.
 
The kid from Harvard will always have an edge in every discipline including law. That's just an accepted fact. That's true in things like medicine to molecular biology. Doesn't mean the door is foreclosed.
You know, many years ago, my political philosophy/Marxist thought professor George Friedman (of Stratfor/Geopolitical Futures fame) once argued to us that college is really just a socioeconomic exercise in mating practices. At the time, we all chuckled about that. But he was probably right. There are just so many pathways to so many things these days in so many places that I'm not sure that particular sheepskin's worth what it once was in terms of a "leg up".
 
To all the esteemed HORT lawyers on the board - how do college summer internships work at you practice/firm?

Does your organization's website have a link to apply for internships?

Do you work directly with local/regional schools to identify interns?

Do you select mostly kids of employees, clients, and other key contacts?

The (no pics) kid has determined that she wants to go to law school following undergrad, so she's starting to look for summer internships. She doesn't have much experience w internships, nor do I. I know my company works with colleges, and also has a link for applying for internships, but I don't know if that's the same w pre-law/law internships.

And do you have any thoughts or opinions on the best kinds of internships to get good, relevant experience? Government vs corporate, vs small/large firms, etc? Any advice or guidance would be appreciated!

And, yes, I know this is an invitation for all kinds of jokes and comments about my kid, interns, my mom, etc. I welcome that as well, but hopefully there's some good information sprinkled in the responses.

Thanks in advance!

I've hired about 10 undergraduate interns. Some were very good. One in particular, who is now a lawyer in Boston, could interview witnesses for me and understood the law. Others were so good on the phone that my clients asked to speak with them instead of me.

There is going to be no pathway here. if your daughter wants to do this she needs to write a ton of letters to lawyers practicing in areas she's interested in and she must be very clear that she considers an internship to be for her education and experience and not for money.

There is no script - she needs to get after it and she might get some takers.
 
Thank you all - I really appreciate your responses!

A little more background on the kid and her current path...

She's in the honors college at her school, in a program that focuses on a lot of ancient civilizations' philosophy, texts, art, etc. She's been taking Latin and now Ancient Greek since 7th grade. Her passion really seems to be for dead languages and civilizations that aren't around any more.

To that end, she has identified Antiquities Law as something that really appeals to her. Arguing to keep people from taking old things out of other countries, or arguing why people should be allowed to bring things in from other countries.

I know that law school - like any other grad school - is going to be really competitive. She's currently got a 3.70 in her honors college, which isn't bad. I've let her know that the median undergrad GPAs for the "top 14" law schools are moreso in the 3.80-3.90 range. I'm not sure what kind of bump, if any, having a 3.70 in HC will have, versus a kid with a 3.9 in Criminal Justice. I'm pretty comfortable that she'll do well on the LSAT. What I was wondering, is the impact of internships as a means to a) learn more about the reality of the profession, and b) separate her application from other similar students.

Again, thank you all!
 
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I also appreciate the perspectives on "top tier" only or not. It's something else I don't know much about, and operate largely on what I've seen, heard, or read elsewhere. While I certainly do want her to aim as high as possible, it's good that there are good paths available if she lands outside the top 14 law schools.
 
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Thank you all - I really appreciate your responses!

A little more background on the kid and her current path...

She's in the honors college at her school, in a program that focuses on a lot of ancient civilizations' philosophy, texts, art, etc. She's been taking Latin and now Ancient Greek since 7th grade. Her passion really seems to be for dead languages and civilizations that aren't around any more.

To that end, she has identified Antiquities Law as something that really appeals to her. Arguing to keep people from taking old things out of other countries, or arguing why people should be allowed to bring things in from other countries.

I know that law school - like any other grad school - is going to be really competitive. She's currently got a 3.70 in her honors college, which isn't bad. I've let her know that the median undergrad GPAs for the "top 14" law schools are moreso in the 3.80-3.90 range. I'm not sure what kind of bump, if any, having a 3.70 in HC will have, versus a kid with a 3.9 in Criminal Justice. I'm pretty comfortable that she'll do well on the LSAT. What I was wondering, is the impact of internships as a means to a) learn more about the reality of the profession, and b) separate her application from other similar students.

Again, thank you all!
I majored in drinking and fornication at the law school. The stories I could tell.... Your daughter is at least one million times brighter than I am.
 
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Would she do well with business development? Is she willing to put in the time that takes?
 
Her passion really seems to be for dead languages and civilizations that aren't around any more.

To that end, she has identified Antiquities Law as something that really appeals to her. Arguing to keep people from taking old things out of other countries, or arguing why people should be allowed to bring things in from other countries.
Has she thought about how she going to make any money?


82354.jpg
 
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Would she do well with business development? Is she willing to put in the time that takes?
I'm comfortable saying that she's got no problem putting as much time into things as is necessary, I'm not as sure about the first part. I think she's still trying to figure out how extroverted she's comfortable being. I think that being an only child, and doing the last year and a half of HS virtually, she doesn't have much experience "putting herself out there". She seems to make friends easily, but moreso lets things like that come to her, rather than getting out there. I've seen her start to do more since she's been in college, but I'm not sure yet uf she's really going to ever be that "Type A" that's always out there, or if she can fake it enough to be successful at things like sales or networking or if she's going to be content being in the background just doing a good job. She just turned 19 (again, no pics of my kid!) so she's not yet fully who she's going to be, but she's working on it.
 
Has she thought about how she going to make any money?


82354.jpg
From the little research we've done on it so far, it doesn't sound like Antiquities Lawyers make terrible money. I have suggested to her that rather than going to law schools known primarily for that type of law, to keep it more broad and then funnel into that direction later if she wants to, while keeping the option open to become interested in other types of law.

Then again, I'm hoping that it turns into a Raiders of the Lost Ark / Monuments Men kind of thing where she's running around physically saving priceless ancient artifacts from the Nazis.
 
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I am an attorney so start the legal jokes.
So a doctor, an engineer and an attorney walk into a bar with their dogs, as they argued over who owned the smartest dog. The doctor says, " I have the smartest dog and I can prove it. " So he takes out a bag of bones and scatters it on the floor. Then he says, " Scalpel, do your thing. " Scalpel quickly arranges all the bones into a perfect human skeleton.
The engineer says " not bad, but watch this. Slide Rule, do your thing. Slide Rule then rearranges the bones into a perfect likeness of the Golden Gate bridge.
" Impressive ", says the attorney, " but watch this. Loophole, do your thing. " Loophole then quickly eats all the bones, screws the other two dogs and catches an Uber to the airport...
 
Thank you all - I really appreciate your responses!

A little more background on the kid and her current path...

She's in the honors college at her school, in a program that focuses on a lot of ancient civilizations' philosophy, texts, art, etc. She's been taking Latin and now Ancient Greek since 7th grade. Her passion really seems to be for dead languages and civilizations that aren't around any more.

To that end, she has identified Antiquities Law as something that really appeals to her. Arguing to keep people from taking old things out of other countries, or arguing why people should be allowed to bring things in from other countries.

I know that law school - like any other grad school - is going to be really competitive. She's currently got a 3.70 in her honors college, which isn't bad. I've let her know that the median undergrad GPAs for the "top 14" law schools are moreso in the 3.80-3.90 range. I'm not sure what kind of bump, if any, having a 3.70 in HC will have, versus a kid with a 3.9 in Criminal Justice. I'm pretty comfortable that she'll do well on the LSAT. What I was wondering, is the impact of internships as a means to a) learn more about the reality of the profession, and b) separate her application from other similar students.

Again, thank you all!
She sounds like a winner - my son really was split between classics and aerospace, and went with the latter, but still reads at least one Latin work a year.

Re: internships -- particularly in light of her current interest, the chief value will be in (a). There will be plenty of applicants to law school who will have worked in one capacity or another in some sort of legal environment (pretty common to see people dip their toe in with a year or two of paralegal work). With that said, given her unique interests and skill sets, it might be worth some very focused research on lawyers that do these kinds of cases to see if there is any need for a basic researcher.

As to her interest, that's a fascinating one! But a word on curriculum - first year of law school is "cocktail party law" and generally a fixed curriculum, second year will have things in it that make you a lawyer (evidence, a statutory course like tax, trial advocacy, trusts and estates, etc., but with a smattering of more elective matters, and third year will be lots of flexibility around electives. Fundamentally, the things she will want to consider will include stuff like property (including IP) and international law courses. Re schools - obviously, apply to the best schools you can, but also consider looking at schools like GW, American, Catholic, William & Mary, or George Mason. They're all very solid and provide good pathways in DC, without being so-called "elite" like Georgetown or UVA. But more importantly, because of their proximity to government, you might find that they offer some quirky courses or independent study opportunities that address some of the specific things she's interested in. They may also be big enough to offer courses in other departments of the university which could be worked into a course of study.

From a career pathway perspective, it's an extremely specialized field that will separate itself largely into "public international law" jobs and "private international law jobs". The former will focus heavily on treaties, intergovernmental relations, etc. Probably the cooler of the two, but likely to require a career commitment. I almost took a step down a similar public path after law school - actually interviewed with DOJ's Nazi-hunting unit as I had a Russian language background and at the time there was rudimentary information sharing between us and the Soviets. With respect to the private side, you are likely talking about a specialty that spins off of representing rich people, their agents, their charities, their charities, etc. so likely a heavy emphasis on tax, estates work, and the like. Those types of jobs can be a really nice career life-path -- as a colleague who did that once said to me, "when you're young, you play a lot of golf and get your clients, and then you just wait for them to ripen." ;) I suppose there's an interesting third pathway given her interests in matters classical, but of course it's heavily dependent on your religious background -- Canon Law.

But at the end of the day, it's important that if she goes to law school, to keep an open mind. There are so many practice areas out there, and more often than not, you stumble into "your" field by accident. I was going to be a government contracts attorney, and the guys I interviewed with left the firm the day I first showed up. At that point there was a guy who was trying to turn me into an ERISA attorney reviewing union benefit fund investments (for which I would have been profoundly miscast) but he left to become the first head of RTC, and eventually a partner here told me to learn "this new drug pricing law" that was enacted in 1990 (which sounded better than ERISA). I've been doing drug pricing stuff ever since.
 
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