HORT Lawyers - College Internships?

[Gonolz]

My last law firm was one of the largest. I was not aware of hiring of any undergrads as interns. We would hire law students during the summers as "summer associates" and then make a permanent offer those who worked out as an associate after law school graduation. Interns typically don't get paid. I just checked out current summer associate salaries and they are around $4k per week. Not a bad summer gig if you can get it.

I would imagine that smaller firms would like to get some free help. I'm not sure how the official program with the school works, but that would be the place to start to look for internships. My advice would be for her to try to find a paying summer job as well as considering internships. One undergrad summer, I got a paying job with a law firm. It was just as a general office helper, not anything substantively legal, but I learned a lot. I also made some good connections. I had a couple of the lawyers write recommendations for my applications to the law schools from which they graduated. In other words, they helped me fool the law schools into believing that I was qualified to go there ... and it worked!

 

[FSUTribe76]

I also appreciate the perspectives on "top tier" only or not. It's something else I don't know much about, and operate largely on what I've seen, heard, or read elsewhere. While I certainly do want her to aim as high as possible, it's good that there are good paths available if she lands outside the top 14 law schools.

My perspective is that there are tiers of law schools. The top tier is the Top 5 law schools (Call them Elite law schools) and they dominate the next 10-15 schools when it comes to equivalent jobs and applicants (call that second tier National Plus schools). The National Plus schools do not dominate like the elite law schools but generally speaking will beat out equivalent applicants from National Schools. I would consider the schools ranked roughly from 15 to 20 as the top of the National Schools with the bottom being around 50 or 55. There are some differences where I might prefer one National School over another (for example my own Bill & Mary has small classes, access to DC, a long prestigious history and arguably the best legal skills training) but generally speaking you want to go with whichever law school offers the cheapest route OR a state where you definitely want to reside. The next 50 or so schools to finish out the top 100 are what I would call Regional Schools. They are definitely below the National Schools but still worth considering going to if the money is right. Below the top 100 I honestly would say pick another profession. There may be some decent outliers of attorneys from the bottom tier schools outside of the top 100, but it’s not really worth pursuing in my book.

 

[NDallasRuss]

She sounds like a winner - my son really was split between classics and aerospace, and went with the latter, but still reads at least one Latin work a year.

Re: internships -- particularly in light of her current interest, the chief value will be in (a). There will be plenty of applicants to law school who will have worked in one capacity or another in some sort of legal environment (pretty common to see people dip their toe in with a year or two of paralegal work). With that said, given her unique interests and skill sets, it might be worth some very focused research on lawyers that do these kinds of cases to see if there is any need for a basic researcher.

As to her interest, that's a fascinating one! But a word on curriculum - first year of law school is "cocktail party law" and generally a fixed curriculum, second year will have things in it that make you a lawyer (evidence, a statutory course like tax, trial advocacy, trusts and estates, etc., but with a smattering of more elective matters, and third year will be lots of flexibility around electives. Fundamentally, the things she will want to consider will include stuff like property (including IP) and international law courses. Re schools - obviously, apply to the best schools you can, but also consider looking at schools like GW, American, Catholic, William & Mary, or George Mason. They're all very solid and provide good pathways in DC, without being so-called "elite" like Georgetown or UVA. But more importantly, because of their proximity to government, you might find that they offer some quirky courses or independent study opportunities that address some of the specific things she's interested in. They may also be big enough to offer courses in other departments of the university which could be worked into a course of study.

From a career pathway perspective, it's an extremely specialized field that will separate itself largely into "public international law" jobs and "private international law jobs". The former will focus heavily on treaties, intergovernmental relations, etc. Probably the cooler of the two, but likely to require a career commitment. I almost took a step down a similar public path after law school - actually interviewed with DOJ's Nazi-hunting unit as I had a Russian language background and at the time there was rudimentary information sharing between us and the Soviets. With respect to the private side, you are likely talking about a specialty that spins off of representing rich people, their agents, their charities, their charities, etc. so likely a heavy emphasis on tax, estates work, and the like. Those types of jobs can be a really nice career life-path -- as a colleague who did that once said to me, "when you're young, you play a lot of golf and get your clients, and then you just wait for them to ripen." I suppose there's an interesting third pathway given her interests in matters classical, but of course it's heavily dependent on your religious background -- Canon Law.

But at the end of the day, it's important that if she goes to law school, to keep an open mind. There are so many practice areas out there, and more often than not, you stumble into "your" field by accident. I was going to be a government contracts attorney, and the guys I interviewed with left the firm the day I first showed up. At that point there was a guy who was trying to turn me into an ERISA attorney reviewing union benefit fund investments (for which I would have been profoundly miscast) but he left to become the first head of RTC, and eventually a partner here told me to learn "this new drug pricing law" that was enacted in 1990 (which sounded better than ERISA). I've been doing drug pricing stuff ever since.

Thank you so much for this! This is really great information that I will definitely share with her. I especially agree with encouraging her to keep an open mind. She gets fixated on something and loses sight of other things, until the next thing catches her attention - so just getting her to stay receptive to new opportunities, possibilities, and pathways will be really important so she doesn't inadvertently miss anything.

I don't know what she's thinking specifically for law schools - if anything yet. My guess is with her being in TX her 1st choice might be UT. With us living in VA there are some really good law schools here in this area. I knew about some of them, but I was really surprised to find that George Mason was as well regarded/ranked as it is. I've always just thought of it as a local commuter college.

 

[Aardvark86]

Thank you so much for this! This is really great information that I will definitely share with her. I especially agree with encouraging her to keep an open mind. She gets fixated on something and loses sight of other things, until the next thing catches her attention - so just getting her to stay receptive to new opportunities, possibilities, and pathways will be really important so she doesn't inadvertently miss anything.

I don't know what she's thinking specifically for law schools - if anything yet. My guess is with her being in TX her 1st choice might be UT. With us living in VA there are some really good law schools here in this area. I knew about some of them, but I was really surprised to find that George Mason was as well regarded/ranked as it is. I've always just thought of it as a local commuter college.

I forgot that you were in NoVA. GMU is a really interesting law school - I love their graduates as they always seem to be people that actually want to practice law. Also did a smart thing in distinguishing themselves by setting up a very strong law-and-economics program. I live pretty close to ASSOL (Antonin Scalia School of Law. (That's for all of the HROT folks who don't like him; the name was quickly changed to ASLS [Antonin Scalia Law School] once the teenagers had their fun.) One of my neighbors is a con law professor there -- writes a lot of SCOTUS amicus briefs and is a really interesting guy (Russian emigre, libertarian, loves golden retrievers, and once threw a "Friedrich Hayek Birthday Bash" so we could drink Czech Pilsners.) https://www.law.gmu.edu/faculty/directory/fulltime/somin_ilya

 

[Formerly Rockymtnole]

Here’s what I would tell my own kids:

If you go to a regional or lesser-known school (which most people do), make sure it’s an area you’d like to live (unless it has a highly-recognized specialty law program). Last thing you want to do is go to NE North Dakota State School of Law if you want to live in Arizona or Georgia.

Second, pick the best school/best fit but then focus on doing the best you can. Once you start practicing and have a few years under your belt nobody give a crap where you went to school. If they do care, I guarantee you they are not lawyers you want to work for or with.

Third, remember there are many ways to make a living in the law. People think only of big firm lawyers or Saul Goodman-type lawyers. There are lots more places to practice and all have their pros and cons.


Knowing what you’ve shared before about your daughter, she is driven and looking for an angle. Again, what i would tell my own child in her situation would be to first focus on what is likely to get her into the best/best fit law school possible and then the rest will sort itself out after the first year of law school. I think it’s like undergrad admissions - test scores, GPA and extracurricular stuff. I’m less enthusiastic than maybe some others here about the value of undergrad “legal”work. IMO, her law school application will rate more highly with volunteer hours at a battered women’s shelter or counseling at-risk youth than 15 hours a week as a file clerk at a law firm.

 

[WadeLookingbill]

My perspective is that there are tiers of law schools. The top tier is the Top 5 law schools (Call them Elite law schools) and they dominate the next 10-15 schools when it comes to equivalent jobs and applicants (call that second tier National Plus schools). The National Plus schools do not dominate like the elite law schools but generally speaking will beat out equivalent applicants from National Schools. I would consider the schools ranked roughly from 15 to 20 as the top of the National Schools with the bottom being around 50 or 55. There are some differences where I might prefer one National School over another (for example my own Bill & Mary has small classes, access to DC, a long prestigious history and arguably the best legal skills training) but generally speaking you want to go with whichever law school offers the cheapest route OR a state where you definitely want to reside. The next 50 or so schools to finish out the top 100 are what I would call Regional Schools. They are definitely below the National Schools but still worth considering going to if the money is right. Below the top 100 I honestly would say pick another profession. There may be some decent outliers of attorneys from the bottom tier schools outside of the top 100, but it’s not really worth pursuing in my book.

A lot of good stuff here, but most important is going to school where you think you want to reside.

As to OP, my firm employs a few recent undergrads in admin/assistant capacities who are planning to take the LSAT in the next year or two and i) want to see if they enjoy working at a law firm, and ii) hope to improve the resume and/or get a recommendation or two from an attorney for law school applications. Good reasons for the job. In the alternative it's probably just as worthwhile to work an interesting job prior to law school that can be drawn upon in law school mission statements (and the resume, and for experience as a practicing attorney).

Best of luck to your daughter.

 

[CharYoteHawk]

We generally hire at least one undergrad student at a time to be an office "runner" for us. Run errand, take the mail to the post office, help scan paper into the electronic file system, and handle clerical tasks upon request. It is a great gig for someone who wants to get their feet wet in a legal setting. Maybe look for those types of opportunities.

 

[CharYoteHawk]

Also, just as an FYI, the University of South Dakota offers in-state tuition if you get at least a 150 on the LSAT. The last I looked, annual tuition and fees were south of $20,000. It is a "low-tier" law school if that matters to you, but if your kid is intelligent and wants to stay in the Midwest, I think it could be an option if the goal is to avoid a bunch of debt. I went there and did well on the bar, so the tier of school isn't everything.

 

[NDallasRuss]

Here’s what I would tell my own kids:

If you go to a regional or lesser-known school (which most people do), make sure it’s an area you’d like to live (unless it has a highly-recognized specialty law program). Last thing you want to do is go to NE North Dakota State School of Law if you want to live in Arizona or Georgia.

Second, pick the best school/best fit but then focus on doing the best you can. Once you start practicing and have a few years under your belt nobody give a crap where you went to school. If they do care, I guarantee you they are not lawyers you want to work for or with.

Third, remember there are many ways to make a living in the law. People think only of big firm lawyers or Saul Goodman-type lawyers. There are lots more places to practice and all have their pros and cons.


Knowing what you’ve shared before about your daughter, she is driven and looking for an angle. Again, what i would tell my own child in her situation would be to first focus on what is likely to get her into the best/best fit law school possible and then the rest will sort itself out after the first year of law school. I think it’s like undergrad admissions - test scores, GPA and extracurricular stuff. I’m less enthusiastic than maybe some others here about the value of undergrad “legal”work. IMO, her law school application will rate more highly with volunteer hours at a battered women’s shelter or counseling at-risk youth than 15 hours a week as a file clerk at a law firm.

Thank you for that!!

 

[nolesincebirth]

@Formerly Rockymtnole is right on. I went to a small school in the south; like tier 2 or 3. I’m licensed in a few states now. When I first started, I was limited to regional areas. I live in the NE now and it would’ve been highly unlikely for me to get a job up here out of law school. Possible yes but not likely. But I practiced in FL for about 8 years and then made the move. At that point, experience matters more than school.

 

[Jimmy McGill]

I'm keeping my license, but the game has been played out. I'd strongly discourage going to a big firm. It can lead to a lot of problems. Money is not worth it.

 

[Tenacious E]

I'm keeping my license, but the game has been played out. I'd strongly discourage going to a big firm. It can lead to a lot of problems. Money is not worth it.

Define big.

 

[Jimmy McGill]

Define big.

If everyone doesn't know each others names??

 

[Tenacious E]

If everyone doesn't know each others names??

That’s a pretty good rule of thumb. There aren’t many of them in iowa.