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How far beyond has Iowa fallen?

I'll just say I wrestled for the Brands brothers at Iowa but it's been a little while. I'd rather be able to post somewhat anonymously like mostly everyone else, as I want to keep the discussion about the actual topics and the validity of the opinions themselves instead of who the opinions are coming from.
Appreciate your insights. One question that came to my mind is whether Gable was still on as an assistant while your were there, and if you thought that had any impact vs. what we're seeing now. Totally understand if that is giving away too much, so feel free to decline to answer.
 
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Appreciate your insights. One question that came to my mind is whether Gable was still on as an assistant while your were there, and if you thought that had any impact vs. what we're seeing now. Totally understand if that is giving away too much, so feel free to decline to answer.
No, he wasn't on as an assistant. He was around often, but not in an official coaching capacity. He would exercise on the equipment on the side (airdyne and that sort of thing) and talk to the wrestlers with advice from time to time. Gable's amazing but I don't think he was exerting substantial influence on how things were done (aside from the fact that Brands was coached by him and I'm sure would like to live up to Gable's legacy as anyone would) when I was there.
 
No, he wasn't on as an assistant. He was around often, but not in an official coaching capacity. He would exercise on the equipment on the side (airdyne and that sort of thing) and talk to the wrestlers with advice from time to time. Gable's amazing but I don't think he was exerting substantial influence on how things were done (aside from the fact that Brands was coached by him and I'm sure would like to live up to Gable's legacy as anyone would) when I was there.
I feel like the 95% of fan bike market is reliant on wrestlers.
 
Great post. Two points.

Change is scary for most because they leave the comfort zone for uncharted waters. Innovators have no problem with this and that's why there are so few innovators.

I honestly don't know the answer to this question, but when was the last time someone mentioned facilities as the tiebreaker in the final decision? To be honest, most top programs have good enough facilities. Iowa may have the best, but does it get you into the end zone? To me, facilities is a box you check off in your pitch, but it's just one of many boxes. The highest of the high end are often looking beyond college in their evaluation of schools, and the parents certainly are.
"If you don't like change, you'll like irrelevance even less" - General Shinseki
 
How did he do with the “Young Guns” class that was supposed cement ISU among the greatest of all time?
Does it even matter? He’s at Penn State, in the best recruiting ground in the country. For years and years, Pennsylvania wrestling fans were frustrated by the lack of success of the Lions. Cael changed that. It is just a fact.
 
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Wow, what an overstatement. Yeah, you can't change some people's minds because they don't care what the facts are. They have an agenda they are serving. But to say you can't change anyone's mind by sharing facts is the opposite of a fact.

I have changed countless people's minds with the facts. But, they wanted the truth. Sometimes very difficult truths.
The version of this idea I've read, and believe to be true ON AVERAGE, is "It’s often impossible to use logic to talk somebody out of something that logic did not talk them in to in the first place". Forget who that quote comes from, but it generally matches my experiences.
 
ok, and? is he too old to do that now?

8 years ago he was driving overnight to make sure he landed his guy...i guess that's telford's department now
Driving? Somehow I believe Cael is in a university jet going to visit recruits.
Different sport, but I was there when James Franklin came to see Saquon Barkley play at Nazareth. He jetted in, then came to the school in a helicopter.
Time to fund the sport better at Whiteowa.
 
when I go to the farmer's market, I sometimes have to take my lamborghini. It's embarrassing. I'd rather take my Bentley. Fits in better. I hate looking out of place.

;)

I occasionally see this car at the State College Wegman’s. This photo was taken on February 20, 2023, so it doesn’t belong to Nagao or Truax. Is it yours? How much Brie can you get in the trunk?

53587238339_67c52edf85_b.jpg
 
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I haven't watched the Austin & Spencer flo documentary yet, but that was certainly my experience. I grew up idolizing Iowa wrestling and the Gable way. I always wanted to go to Iowa. I was recruited by Cael and neglected to even visit because I was so sure I wanted to be a hawk. I was all about outworking everyone, being tougher than everyone, and the Iowa way. And Brands' system certainly was exactly that.

Having gone through Brands' program, I recognize many positives. In this program, you will become extremely positionally solid. Mental and physical toughness will be achieved through grueling practices and very frequent verbal reiteration from the coach(es). And clean living will be preached consistently. After a year in the room, you only have yourself to blame if you can't get off bottom or if you can't hold up to heavy hand-fighting or pressure.

However, I'm somewhat older and (I think) somewhat wiser now. I still think it is great to learn how to stay in great position, to practice clean living, and to build physical and mental toughness. However, it takes so much more than these attributes to be truly great and to really continue to elevate your game. These attributes can get guys on the podium. If guys were already phenomenal coming in, they can sometimes even get you to the top of the podium. There are even a few guys who really thrive in this environment.

But, I've come to believe this coaching/training system is critically flawed with regard to helping guys reach anything near their potential in the vast majority of cases. One reason is that the Iowa style and Brands' persona and the way he talks to the team (and to the media) combine to foster an environment where most guys feel they have to prove their mental and physical toughness in the practice room and in competition day-in and day-out above all else. The result then, is that the vast majority of guys (if not all) come in to practice each day focused more on out-toughing their partner than on mastering the sport by improving in positions/skills where they need to improve. So, they need to outlast their partner in each live go. They need to drill harder than their partner. They need to push their partner into the wall or off the mat when hand-fighting or live wrestling. They need to be completely exhausted at the end of each live go and at the end of the practice in order to feel like they accomplished anything.

But, if your aim is now to outlast your partner, you're no longer incentivized to wrestle a high-pace or take risks or be creative because you might open yourself up to expending too much energy too quickly when your partner is not making that 'mistake' and now they can take advantage and make you look 'weak' by pushing you around the mat or into the wall or off the mat. Instead, you're incentivized to conserve your energy because the practices are so long and grueling and full of hand-fighting and long live wrestling goes that (it at least seems like) the only way you'll be able to last the whole time without looking 'weak' in the way mentioned previously is by pacing yourself. You're still going to be exhausted at the end of practice either way by nature of the practice structure, but you'll at least have proved your toughness by being able to last the whole time and hopefully demonstrably more so than your partner did. Is this the best mindset to have if you want to efficiently and continuously improve in all positions and facets of wrestling?

Another reason I believe the Brands system is critically flawed is that the frequency and intensity of these types of grueling practices, coupled with this emphasis on proving your toughness, often results in wearing down guys' bodies (increased injury rate), especially after spending multiple years in the program. This is not to say I don't believe in hard work or toughness or pushing yourself to your limits in order to extend your limits. I most certainly do believe in such things. But, I also believe there's so much more to wrestling than these things.

Yet another reason for believing Brands' system to be critically flawed is that, when you constantly preach 'doing it right' and 'clean living' and 'you get what you earn', you set it up in athletes' minds that they pretty much have to be perfect in order to succeed. But perfect is an impossible standard and the athletes know they aren't meeting this standard. So, now they're going into their matches with this nagging feeling that they didn't do it quite right enough and they haven't been living quite clean enough and they haven't been quite earning what they want to get enough. The result is a lack of belief that they have earned the success they are trying to reach.

Additionally, many athletes with a coach or coaches who preach these things expect the coach or coaches to perfectly exemplify these things themselves. And, even though the Brands brothers and the other coaches do a decent job of exemplifying these things most of the time, the athletes are quick to take note when they don't live up to the incredibly high standards they set. For example, if a coach relaxes the standard for clean living with some athletes and not others due to some athletes being deemed too valuable to the team's success to properly hold them accountable for their actions, the rest of the athletes may take notice of that, which can result in feeling like the coach is a bit of a hypocrite the next time that coach starts preaching 'do it right' and 'live clean' and 'you get what you earn'. That's not a great recipe for building trust.

There are other reasons I have come to believe the Brands system is deeply flawed, but this post is already super long so I'll wrap it up with a few closing thoughts. For one thing, I've come to think the grueling practices can and should be had, but that this should be done with utmost moderation. Instead, the majority of practices should be structured to incentivize the type/style/pace of wrestling you want to see your athletes exemplify in competition. Instead of reciting in team speeches and media interviews that you want to see your wrestlers be more active and 'pull the trigger' more, how about actually facilitating this by structuring practices (and team talks and media interviews) in a way that builds in your athletes the confidence to do so rather than essentially structuring the program to achieve the opposite effect. Instead of feeling like you've got to push your team to work harder by structuring your practices and team talks and media interviews in this way, why not trust your athletes to be self-motivated to improve and then facilitate even more self-motivation in your athletes by constantly fostering in them a genuine love for the sport and confidence that they're growing/improving in the sport by focusing on helping them to achieve positional/technical mastery in as many positions as possible?
Yeah, I'm not buying everything you're selling in this "super long post."
You're the first Iowa wrestler I've heard call Tom and the coaching staff "hypocrites" and not trusting their athletes to be self-motivated.
Just curious, what years did you wrestle at Iowa?
What was your career record?
 
Does it even matter? He’s at Penn State, in the best recruiting ground in the country. For years and years, Pennsylvania wrestling fans were frustrated by the lack of success of the Lions. Cael changed that. It is just a fact.
Huh?

My point was, while Cael is recruiting the best, what he's doing is beyond just pulling in studs.
 
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What surprises me is the number of wrestlers who did not come to Iowa that say they grew up huge Iowa wrestling fans and always wanted to wrestle at Iowa.... Then the question turns to "Why did the Iowa staff miss on these guys?" I know Penn State is getting all the really top-level guys right now but there are still a lot of other recruits out there that are way up the rankings from what we are getting... It just feels like we should be doing way, way better at recruiting then what we are... Oh, I know we are landing some top-level guys here and there but not with enough consistency and regularity to challenge Penn State.. I know other schools have great programs as well but if they are good enough to recruit over Iowa given our history then something needs to change at the coaching level...
The Iowa staff didn’t really miss on these kids. The kids grew up.
 
I think they are missing out on them, because they are not there. You always hear about the backyard comments. Where does it say it's strictly Cael's domain? I saw quite a few programs with reps at Hershey. Iowa was not one. Maybe I'm mistaken, but I have never seen an Iowa rep in that area.
 
Yeah, I'm not buying everything you're selling in this "super long post."
You're the first Iowa wrestler I've heard call Tom and the coaching staff "hypocrites" and not trusting their athletes to be self-motivated.
Just curious, what years did you wrestle at Iowa?
What was your career record?
You're not just curious though. You want to know exactly who I am, so you're fishing. I already said I'd rather not share, but my record was better than most and not as good as some.

I'm not selling anything so you can go ahead and believe whatever you want. Is it really so hard to believe Tom & staff might have flaws? All you gotta do is make friends with some Iowa wrestlers (who aren't currently on staff or on the team or in the HWC, as those are conflicts of interest when it comes to giving honest thoughts about Tom & staff). Then, just open your ears and you'll hear Iowa wrestlers say the same things I did (among plenty of positive things as well).

So, you are either fibbing or you're not friends with any former Iowa wrestlers. Either way, I don't have to prove anything to you. I think my points are plenty valid. You don't, because you worship at the altar of T&T. You are a devotee and I understand that.
 
I think they are missing out on them, because they are not there. You always hear about the backyard comments. Where does it say it's strictly Cael's domain? I saw quite a few programs with reps at Hershey. Iowa was not one. Maybe I'm mistaken, but I have never seen an Iowa rep in that area.
Iowa staff not being present is a common thing I have heard in regards to big tournaments.
 
You're not just curious though. You want to know exactly who I am, so you're fishing. I already said I'd rather not share, but my record was better than most and not as good as some.

I'm not selling anything so you can go ahead and believe whatever you want. Is it really so hard to believe Tom & staff might have flaws? All you gotta do is make friends with some Iowa wrestlers (who aren't currently on staff or on the team or in the HWC, as those are conflicts of interest when it comes to giving honest thoughts about Tom & staff). Then, just open your ears and you'll hear Iowa wrestlers say the same things I did (among plenty of positive things as well).

So, you are either fibbing or you're not friends with any former Iowa wrestlers. Either way, I don't have to prove anything to you. I think my points are plenty valid. You don't, because you worship at the altar of T&T. You are a devotee and I understand that.

This is 1000% correct. I know former Iowa wrestlers and they all say the same thing as wahlberg, plus a LOT more.

Here are comments former wrestlers make:

1. TnT are extremely stubborn and do not listen to advice ... including Gable!

2. There is something deeply flawed in how the practices are run--guys fade over time in the program, guys get seriously injured over time (and the vast majority of injuries are not in meets), and Iowa wrestlers DO NOT shoot near enough (there's a lack of offense).

3. They are sad to see Iowa fall farther and farther behind on TnT's watch.

and

4. Iowa is not getting wrestlers from the top clubs. It doesn't appear that Iowa values these clubs and are stuck in their ol'ways of recruiting.


However, all of these folks I've talked to are in disagreement about what to do--coaching-wise. Some say we are stuck with TnT as there really isn't anyone to replace them. Or, and I hear this a lot, throw tons of $$ at Askren.


So, there ya go.
 
Iowa staff not being present is a common thing I have heard in regards to big tournaments.
This is the thing I don’t understand. Iowa fans are knowledgeable about wrestling . A large part of wrestling is recruiting. These stories above are common about Iowa not reaching out to wrestlers or showing up to major tournaments. Yet there is a sizable chunk who still thinks if a wrestler goes elsewhere it’s because of money or they can’t believe other recruits turned down sizable monetary differences in money to chose another school. Why can’t they put the obvious pieces together between recruiting effort or lack there of and development of wrestlers on campus? So they don’t really contact you and haven’t shown they can develop you in the current style of wrestling. But come to Iowa because Gable won titles and if not everyone is cheating and the game is rigged.
 
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You lack reading comprehension and you attribute claims to me that I've never made.

I haven't disputed that PSU paid nagao or truax less than other school's offers. I just don't take the claim very seriously when I have no idea what the magnitude of the offers were. If the difference was $10k, then that's negligible. They can claim the moral value of not valuing money as a factor in their decision, and PSU looks better for it as well. If the difference was $100k it's substantially more meaningful and significant and a real story.

I haven't claimed that PSU is cheating. I have absolutely zero information or evidence that they are. That doesn't mean it's wrong to inquire about facts.

After finishing as a national runner-up at Cornell, Max Dean walked on at Penn State. And that was prior to NIL.

And you might ask, what did he give up. My response is "a pretty good education" at Cornell.
 
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It's a paradigm shift and if you miss that train you end up way behind. It's being a victim of extraordinary success. Why change when things are doing so well and by the time you realize they're not it's too late to make those changes quickly and with minimal disruption. I've seen it happen in many industries one being the firearms industry. Glock changes the game, the industry resists, they get a huge market share and now everyone has a polymer pistol. Most rifle and shotgun stocks are now composites too.

Sanderson has the vision and ability to go with his street credibility to set up the ideal situation. He really had nothing to lose with the somewhat disappointing finishes PSU had recently. In Sunderland's last year the Lions finished 17th fwiw. PSU had nothing to lose. The problem for Iowa is they need the next all time great coach to climb back on top so they need to start looking at former Penn State wrestlers.
FIFY
 
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Does it even matter? He’s at Penn State, in the best recruiting ground in the country. For years and years, Pennsylvania wrestling fans were frustrated by the lack of success of the Lions. Cael changed that. It is just a fact.

Isn't that the truth.
 
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After finishing as a national runner-up at Cornell, Max Dean walked on at Penn State. And that was prior to NIL.

And you might ask, what did he give up. My response is "a pretty good education" at Cornell.
Are you sure he didn’t graduate from Cornell? He was at Cornell for two more years after that runner-up finish before transferring.

His freshman year was 2017-2018. Wrestled 2018-2019 as a sophomore. Olympic RS 2019-2020, then Ivy League cancelled 2020-2021 (COVID).

After that he transferred to PSU for the 2021-2022 season. Wrestling 2 seasons for PS.

He only wrestled 2 seasons at Cornell but it appears he was at Cornell for 4 years, unless he didn’t enroll in classes during his Olympic RS season, but he still could have graduated.

I may be wrong but I would think he was likely a graduate student at PSU.
 
I read the book, “how minds change” by David McRaney, it was nearly life changing. He says you can’t change anyone’s mind by sharing facts. Gives the example of people who believe the world is flat- no amount of “facts” will change their mind- they will just come up with “alternate facts.”

This is where we are at here. Nagao says in an interview he took less money to go to PSU, and even that info, straight from the athlete’s mouth, is not good enough.

The belief is that PSU wins because they pay more money. No amount of arguing will change it. But if you truly believe that and it’s not true, you’ll never get better. This is also where we are, here.
The ironic thing is that Nago may finish his career on the bench with all the young top lightweight talent they are bringing in soon, starting this year with Davis.
 
Are you sure he didn’t graduate from Cornell? He was at Cornell for two more years after that runner-up finish before transferring.

His freshman year was 2017-2018. Wrestled 2018-2019 as a sophomore. Olympic RS 2019-2020, then Ivy League cancelled 2020-2021 (COVID).

After that he transferred to PSU for the 2021-2022 season. Wrestling 2 seasons for PS.

He only wrestled 2 seasons at Cornell but it appears he was at Cornell for 4 years, unless he didn’t enroll in classes during his Olympic RS season, but he still could have graduated.

I may be wrong but I would think he was likely a graduate student at PSU.

You're correct. He might have graduated at Cornell. I missed the Olympic redshirt year in 2019-2020.

With that being said, he probably left a lot of money on the table when an Ivy league national finalist is a walk-on, when he joins another team.
 
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I haven't watched the Austin & Spencer flo documentary yet, but that was certainly my experience. I grew up idolizing Iowa wrestling and the Gable way. I always wanted to go to Iowa. I was recruited by Cael and neglected to even visit because I was so sure I wanted to be a hawk. I was all about outworking everyone, being tougher than everyone, and the Iowa way. And Brands' system certainly was exactly that.

Having gone through Brands' program, I recognize many positives. In this program, you will become extremely positionally solid. Mental and physical toughness will be achieved through grueling practices and very frequent verbal reiteration from the coach(es). And clean living will be preached consistently. After a year in the room, you only have yourself to blame if you can't get off bottom or if you can't hold up to heavy hand-fighting or pressure.

However, I'm somewhat older and (I think) somewhat wiser now. I still think it is great to learn how to stay in great position, to practice clean living, and to build physical and mental toughness. However, it takes so much more than these attributes to be truly great and to really continue to elevate your game. These attributes can get guys on the podium. If guys were already phenomenal coming in, they can sometimes even get you to the top of the podium. There are even a few guys who really thrive in this environment.

But, I've come to believe this coaching/training system is critically flawed with regard to helping guys reach anything near their potential in the vast majority of cases. One reason is that the Iowa style and Brands' persona and the way he talks to the team (and to the media) combine to foster an environment where most guys feel they have to prove their mental and physical toughness in the practice room and in competition day-in and day-out above all else. The result then, is that the vast majority of guys (if not all) come in to practice each day focused more on out-toughing their partner than on mastering the sport by improving in positions/skills where they need to improve. So, they need to outlast their partner in each live go. They need to drill harder than their partner. They need to push their partner into the wall or off the mat when hand-fighting or live wrestling. They need to be completely exhausted at the end of each live go and at the end of the practice in order to feel like they accomplished anything.

But, if your aim is now to outlast your partner, you're no longer incentivized to wrestle a high-pace or take risks or be creative because you might open yourself up to expending too much energy too quickly when your partner is not making that 'mistake' and now they can take advantage and make you look 'weak' by pushing you around the mat or into the wall or off the mat. Instead, you're incentivized to conserve your energy because the practices are so long and grueling and full of hand-fighting and long live wrestling goes that (it at least seems like) the only way you'll be able to last the whole time without looking 'weak' in the way mentioned previously is by pacing yourself. You're still going to be exhausted at the end of practice either way by nature of the practice structure, but you'll at least have proved your toughness by being able to last the whole time and hopefully demonstrably more so than your partner did. Is this the best mindset to have if you want to efficiently and continuously improve in all positions and facets of wrestling?

Another reason I believe the Brands system is critically flawed is that the frequency and intensity of these types of grueling practices, coupled with this emphasis on proving your toughness, often results in wearing down guys' bodies (increased injury rate), especially after spending multiple years in the program. This is not to say I don't believe in hard work or toughness or pushing yourself to your limits in order to extend your limits. I most certainly do believe in such things. But, I also believe there's so much more to wrestling than these things.

Yet another reason for believing Brands' system to be critically flawed is that, when you constantly preach 'doing it right' and 'clean living' and 'you get what you earn', you set it up in athletes' minds that they pretty much have to be perfect in order to succeed. But perfect is an impossible standard and the athletes know they aren't meeting this standard. So, now they're going into their matches with this nagging feeling that they didn't do it quite right enough and they haven't been living quite clean enough and they haven't been quite earning what they want to get enough. The result is a lack of belief that they have earned the success they are trying to reach.

Additionally, many athletes with a coach or coaches who preach these things expect the coach or coaches to perfectly exemplify these things themselves. And, even though the Brands brothers and the other coaches do a decent job of exemplifying these things most of the time, the athletes are quick to take note when they don't live up to the incredibly high standards they set. For example, if a coach relaxes the standard for clean living with some athletes and not others due to some athletes being deemed too valuable to the team's success to properly hold them accountable for their actions, the rest of the athletes may take notice of that, which can result in feeling like the coach is a bit of a hypocrite the next time that coach starts preaching 'do it right' and 'live clean' and 'you get what you earn'. That's not a great recipe for building trust.

There are other reasons I have come to believe the Brands system is deeply flawed, but this post is already super long so I'll wrap it up with a few closing thoughts. For one thing, I've come to think the grueling practices can and should be had, but that this should be done with utmost moderation. Instead, the majority of practices should be structured to incentivize the type/style/pace of wrestling you want to see your athletes exemplify in competition. Instead of reciting in team speeches and media interviews that you want to see your wrestlers be more active and 'pull the trigger' more, how about actually facilitating this by structuring practices (and team talks and media interviews) in a way that builds in your athletes the confidence to do so rather than essentially structuring the program to achieve the opposite effect. Instead of feeling like you've got to push your team to work harder by structuring your practices and team talks and media interviews in this way, why not trust your athletes to be self-motivated to improve and then facilitate even more self-motivation in your athletes by constantly fostering in them a genuine love for the sport and confidence that they're growing/improving in the sport by focusing on helping them to achieve positional/technical mastery in as many positions as possible?
You make some good points, but obviously this system wasn’t for you, and you feel it ruined what you feel was your potential as a college wrestler. You made it sound like only a very few can thrive under TnT, but the results say differently. This style is exactly why I think the Ferrari’s could thrive at Iowa because they were raised that way. Probably why TnT want it to work with them. Have you been involved in the day to day workings/practices since graduation? Angelo Ferrari mentioned they really emphasize recovery in the program now. I have even heard Gable mention it’s important to get proper recovery after a hard practice/workout. I’m not saying they have totally changed their philosophy, but perhaps aren’t as constantly hard core as the early days when you were there.
 
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I haven't watched the Austin & Spencer flo documentary yet, but that was certainly my experience. I grew up idolizing Iowa wrestling and the Gable way. I always wanted to go to Iowa. I was recruited by Cael and neglected to even visit because I was so sure I wanted to be a hawk. I was all about outworking everyone, being tougher than everyone, and the Iowa way. And Brands' system certainly was exactly that.

Having gone through Brands' program, I recognize many positives. In this program, you will become extremely positionally solid. Mental and physical toughness will be achieved through grueling practices and very frequent verbal reiteration from the coach(es). And clean living will be preached consistently. After a year in the room, you only have yourself to blame if you can't get off bottom or if you can't hold up to heavy hand-fighting or pressure.

However, I'm somewhat older and (I think) somewhat wiser now. I still think it is great to learn how to stay in great position, to practice clean living, and to build physical and mental toughness. However, it takes so much more than these attributes to be truly great and to really continue to elevate your game. These attributes can get guys on the podium. If guys were already phenomenal coming in, they can sometimes even get you to the top of the podium. There are even a few guys who really thrive in this environment.

But, I've come to believe this coaching/training system is critically flawed with regard to helping guys reach anything near their potential in the vast majority of cases. One reason is that the Iowa style and Brands' persona and the way he talks to the team (and to the media) combine to foster an environment where most guys feel they have to prove their mental and physical toughness in the practice room and in competition day-in and day-out above all else. The result then, is that the vast majority of guys (if not all) come in to practice each day focused more on out-toughing their partner than on mastering the sport by improving in positions/skills where they need to improve. So, they need to outlast their partner in each live go. They need to drill harder than their partner. They need to push their partner into the wall or off the mat when hand-fighting or live wrestling. They need to be completely exhausted at the end of each live go and at the end of the practice in order to feel like they accomplished anything.

But, if your aim is now to outlast your partner, you're no longer incentivized to wrestle a high-pace or take risks or be creative because you might open yourself up to expending too much energy too quickly when your partner is not making that 'mistake' and now they can take advantage and make you look 'weak' by pushing you around the mat or into the wall or off the mat. Instead, you're incentivized to conserve your energy because the practices are so long and grueling and full of hand-fighting and long live wrestling goes that (it at least seems like) the only way you'll be able to last the whole time without looking 'weak' in the way mentioned previously is by pacing yourself. You're still going to be exhausted at the end of practice either way by nature of the practice structure, but you'll at least have proved your toughness by being able to last the whole time and hopefully demonstrably more so than your partner did. Is this the best mindset to have if you want to efficiently and continuously improve in all positions and facets of wrestling?

Another reason I believe the Brands system is critically flawed is that the frequency and intensity of these types of grueling practices, coupled with this emphasis on proving your toughness, often results in wearing down guys' bodies (increased injury rate), especially after spending multiple years in the program. This is not to say I don't believe in hard work or toughness or pushing yourself to your limits in order to extend your limits. I most certainly do believe in such things. But, I also believe there's so much more to wrestling than these things.

Yet another reason for believing Brands' system to be critically flawed is that, when you constantly preach 'doing it right' and 'clean living' and 'you get what you earn', you set it up in athletes' minds that they pretty much have to be perfect in order to succeed. But perfect is an impossible standard and the athletes know they aren't meeting this standard. So, now they're going into their matches with this nagging feeling that they didn't do it quite right enough and they haven't been living quite clean enough and they haven't been quite earning what they want to get enough. The result is a lack of belief that they have earned the success they are trying to reach.

Additionally, many athletes with a coach or coaches who preach these things expect the coach or coaches to perfectly exemplify these things themselves. And, even though the Brands brothers and the other coaches do a decent job of exemplifying these things most of the time, the athletes are quick to take note when they don't live up to the incredibly high standards they set. For example, if a coach relaxes the standard for clean living with some athletes and not others due to some athletes being deemed too valuable to the team's success to properly hold them accountable for their actions, the rest of the athletes may take notice of that, which can result in feeling like the coach is a bit of a hypocrite the next time that coach starts preaching 'do it right' and 'live clean' and 'you get what you earn'. That's not a great recipe for building trust.

There are other reasons I have come to believe the Brands system is deeply flawed, but this post is already super long so I'll wrap it up with a few closing thoughts. For one thing, I've come to think the grueling practices can and should be had, but that this should be done with utmost moderation. Instead, the majority of practices should be structured to incentivize the type/style/pace of wrestling you want to see your athletes exemplify in competition. Instead of reciting in team speeches and media interviews that you want to see your wrestlers be more active and 'pull the trigger' more, how about actually facilitating this by structuring practices (and team talks and media interviews) in a way that builds in your athletes the confidence to do so rather than essentially structuring the program to achieve the opposite effect. Instead of feeling like you've got to push your team to work harder by structuring your practices and team talks and media interviews in this way, why not trust your athletes to be self-motivated to improve and then facilitate even more self-motivation in your athletes by constantly fostering in them a genuine love for the sport and confidence that they're growing/improving in the sport by focusing on helping them to achieve positional/technical mastery in as many positions as possible?
Everything you wrote rings true from what I have heard from the parent of a PSU wrestler, not about Iowa but how PSU trains. also what you wrote is what I've experienced in training myself. a positive mind set and focusing on the process got me closer to any goals compared to all out balls to the wall training.

Having a positive goal and mindset worked better. 1. I chose this is my first rule. 2. I love this. 3. Do it hard. Do it hard was in the context was during training, there was no failure just trying my best. Of course there were built in light weeks or rest weeks and I took care of myself so I could train but I never had a go to war mentality. It was fun.
 
You're not just curious though. You want to know exactly who I am, so you're fishing. I already said I'd rather not share, but my record was better than most and not as good as some.

I'm not selling anything so you can go ahead and believe whatever you want. Is it really so hard to believe Tom & staff might have flaws? All you gotta do is make friends with some Iowa wrestlers (who aren't currently on staff or on the team or in the HWC, as those are conflicts of interest when it comes to giving honest thoughts about Tom & staff). Then, just open your ears and you'll hear Iowa wrestlers say the same things I did (among plenty of positive things as well).

So, you are either fibbing or you're not friends with any former Iowa wrestlers. Either way, I don't have to prove anything to you. I think my points are plenty valid. You don't, because you worship at the altar of T&T. You are a devotee and I understand that.
No fibbing here. Coached a guy that was an Iowa wrestler, I'm friends with past Iowa wrestlers, some who wrestled under Gable and some who wrestled under Brands. I know some guys who wrestled for Jimmy, but they are more of an acquaintance. I've been told some stories of some brutal practices, but I don't remember any of them sounding as tough as the ones I have been told about Gable's practices. Just have never heard the same negativity that you put out.
I never once thought you would give your name.
 
You make some good points, but obviously this system wasn’t for you, and you feel it ruined what you feel was your potential as a college wrestler. You made it sound like only a very few can thrive under TnT, but the results say differently. This style is exactly why I think the Ferrari’s could thrive at Iowa because they were raised that way. Probably why TnT want it to work with them. Have you been involved in the day to day workings/practices since graduation? Angelo Ferrari mentioned they really emphasize recovery in the program now. I have even heard Gable mention it’s important to get proper recovery after a hard practice/workout. I’m not saying they have totally changed their philosophy, but perhaps aren’t as constantly hard core as the early days when you were there.
It is true that I did not reach what I feel was my potential as a college wrestler (very few ever do really). However, I don't blame any coach for that. I was raised to take ownership and I do. I made all sorts of mistakes that were mine alone. So, I don't blame Brands or the system for ruining what I feel was my potential. At the same time that I take ownership of my results, I can also honestly assess the coaching/training system that I went through.

I will affirm that I believe very few can thrive (in the ways I covered in my post) under TnT. I really don't think the results say differently, but I guess it depends what your definition of 'thrive' is in this context. I fared better than most in the Brands system, but I would definitely not say I 'thrived'.

As far as Ferraris being raised in the Iowa style, so was I and so were many of those that go to Iowa. I think looking to any recruit or family as the answer to our problems is foolhardy and not addressing the source of the problems.

No, I have not been involved in the day-to-day since I graduated. Perhaps they've completely overhauled. But when I watch the team and assess, I really doubt it. I'm sure they've made some tweaks, but tweaks aren't going to solve much and I don't even know that I believe Brands is capable of major change at this point.
 
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This is 1000% correct. I know former Iowa wrestlers and they all say the same thing as wahlberg, plus a LOT more.

Here are comments former wrestlers make:

1. TnT are extremely stubborn and do not listen to advice ... including Gable!

2. There is something deeply flawed in how the practices are run--guys fade over time in the program, guys get seriously injured over time (and the vast majority of injuries are not in meets), and Iowa wrestlers DO NOT shoot near enough (there's a lack of offense).

3. They are sad to see Iowa fall farther and farther behind on TnT's watch.

and

4. Iowa is not getting wrestlers from the top clubs. It doesn't appear that Iowa values these clubs and are stuck in their ol'ways of recruiting.


However, all of these folks I've talked to are in disagreement about what to do--coaching-wise. Some say we are stuck with TnT as there really isn't anyone to replace them. Or, and I hear this a lot, throw tons of $$ at Askren.


So, there ya go.
This is a lot different than the post you started this thread with being you are the OP.
Started with, "Iowa guys wrestle with great effort, but it's obvious Iowa doesn't have the talent to compete for titles right now."
And then on page 11, you jump on the bash the staff boat... and take a different approach.
 
Put it like this. I've been to them all... every year.

Tom or Terry? never.

Seen morningstar though

They don’t have to be in awe to have our staff connect with them at events. It’s about developing relationships with hammers.
I completely agree. And to evaluate some talent. Everyone is pretty aware who the hammers are, but there is a lot more out there. Can't beat everyone to the next hammer, if you aren't even looking.
 
This is a lot different than the post you started this thread with being you are the OP.
Started with, "Iowa guys wrestle with great effort, but it's obvious Iowa doesn't have the talent to compete for titles right now."
And then on page 11, you jump on the bash the staff boat... and take a different approach.

And?
 
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