You're arguing with yourself. Everybody else is just laughing at you.
How far beyond has Iowa fallen?
- Thread starter HawkCharlotte
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To the extent that they feel like they can't do anything social because they're so tired?
No. its not like that. at all.
Not looking to debate anything with you.
Lifestyle, lifestyle, lifestyle
I know 60 year olds that can work circles around most 45 year olds.
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anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb
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Says the guy who just posted from a lurker account because you wanted to argue with me.
😂
If by "lurker account", you mean the account that my devices are using 100% of the time for 20 years
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anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb
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Okay but that's not what I am discussing. I'm discussing a 45 year old Tom Brands and the 56 year old Tom Brands. Is 56 Tom better, worse, or equal to 45 Tom? That was my point. Not comparing him to anyone but himself. I don't know one person that would say their 56 work effort was better than their 45 work effort. Some might say they are equal. Most would say worse than. It's just life. As we get older, we are all asked to smell more roses. That takes time and energy away.
I think what most are seeing with Ckarl that isn't obvious is his leadership is well ahead of TnT. Coaching leadership is in the midst of a change. Up to a decade ago, you could yell, push, cuss, threaten, etc. your athletes. For most of us on this board, we grew up in an age of being coached by those who wouldn't last one week coaching in this day and age before being fired. I think coaching leadership is in the midst of a change and TnT are either not seeing it or incapable of adjusting to it.
It's not a knock on them. They clearly love their guys and are willing to show it however necessary, but something is off. You have to know how to coach each individual on the team. It's not a one-size-fits-all coaching mentality anymore like it was with Gable at the top. This is why it's so important to have the best assistants and that's what they've got over there now.
I fully believe there is no one better to 'fix' the Hawks than the Brands, but they've got to be willing to adapt to the changes that are taking place in our sport. There's nobody that wants Iowa to be back on top more than them, but something has to change.
I’m a clown because I disagree it’s the money and you want money numbers. The Crux I haven’t avoided is PSU is a better program for many reasons besides money and that isn’t changing. I don’t believe it’s the money so I don’t care to get numbers. You’re the clown that reached out to compliance. That’s a clown. Everyone on here are wrestling fools and you think you have it figured out. For the last time anyone in sales knows it’s not the price or money. Only losers blame it on price or money.
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anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb
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I've never claimed I have it figured out or that I have answers.
Let's dumb this down for you so you can actually comprehend it.
If PSU offered him $10,000 and Iowa offered $15,000 and he chose PSU over Iowa it would be factually correct to say that he chose to go to PSU for less money. However it wouldn't be factually correct to claim that money is irrelevant to the decision since the difference in pay is negligible.
If PSU offered him $10,000 and Iowa offered him $1,000,000 and he still chose to go to PSU, then it would be factually correct to claim that money wasn't a factor in his decision.
That's an extreme example to illustrate the argument that you and multiple others are delusionally not comprehending.
This isn't rocket science. You're not having an honest/genuine discussion. You're speaking purely from a confirmation bias position. And you're dying on that hill because you know you don't have a counter argument.
Until we know the numbers each program offered, the claims that he went to PSU for less money than other teams offered and therefore money isn't a factor is just not factual and is a meaningless claim.
One thing we need to keep in mind is that the family of an elite wrestler has already spent GOBS of money getting their kid to the interview process with Tom Brands and Cael Sanderson. Training at elite gyms. High end tourneys. You name it. By that point, since as a parent I'm already invested in my child, I'm going with the program that continues on the path already set. Money is no longer as important as you and I may think because it's already been discounted by the parents over the many years of laying out the money. They are used to it. What's another 10k a year if you've already spent 50k, 75k, or more up to that point? Look at it from the parent's POV and it may look different.
Not to keep the money thread going, cause I see the points made. But, what about the coaching staff? Those names are always thrown around when there is an opening. I've heard it said that the offers are comparable to the top end head coaches. I'm sure they are doing ok financially, but I would assume it's probably a fairly decent pay raise. Penn State keeps a pretty tight lid on their operations, but there is obviously something other than just money that keeps everyone there.
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anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb
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I don't dispute any of that. $10k a year isn't that big of a deal. $100k a year would be. The magnitude matters. Until someone posts tangible numbers, it's all meaningless conjecture.
Gable was NOT a one-size-fits-all coaching mentality. He was the opposite. He was a master at doing what it took to motivate and properly train each respective athlete.
What proof do you have that the Brands are not adapting their coaching styles? Just the results that we don't think are good enough?
I do not feel comfortable giving out exact dollars - but basically twice as much.
It was a significant amount. Enough that your accountant would ask WTF.
Gable was not one size fits all. Read his books and listen to his interviews. He stressed listening and getting to know his athletes and knowing what buttons to push. He was the master of it. He did not treat each athlete the same. He talks all the time about knowing when to back off. He also is very aware that the pressure these young men are under, competing at a high level, can be life threatening in some situations.
PSU out of state tuition is $39k and $20k in-state. If I'm getting a 50% ride at PSU, versus a 75% ride at Iowa on an out of state tuition basis, that's a $10k difference annually.
Iowa is $10k and $32k respectively but I'm not taking the time to go all that.
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Interesting discussion in this thread. I think the answer to these problems is pretty simple: have Dresser come in with his staff and core group of wrestlers; create a 'super squad' that can challenge for a title or two; and get this program back on track for god's sake. Technically, the coaches wouldn't have as much hardware to flash around (e.g., 4 national titles and a Hodge between them compared to 5 titles and various World and Olympic bling), but they are Iowa guys who just brought home a conference title for the first time in well over a decade. Also, Dresser would probably resurrect some cool retro Hawkeye sweaters to wear at dual meets. Problem solved.
I haven't watched the Austin & Spencer flo documentary yet, but that was certainly my experience. I grew up idolizing Iowa wrestling and the Gable way. I always wanted to go to Iowa. I was recruited by Cael and neglected to even visit because I was so sure I wanted to be a hawk. I was all about outworking everyone, being tougher than everyone, and the Iowa way. And Brands' system certainly was exactly that.
Having gone through Brands' program, I recognize many positives. In this program, you will become extremely positionally solid. Mental and physical toughness will be achieved through grueling practices and very frequent verbal reiteration from the coach(es). And clean living will be preached consistently. After a year in the room, you only have yourself to blame if you can't get off bottom or if you can't hold up to heavy hand-fighting or pressure.
However, I'm somewhat older and (I think) somewhat wiser now. I still think it is great to learn how to stay in great position, to practice clean living, and to build physical and mental toughness. However, it takes so much more than these attributes to be truly great and to really continue to elevate your game. These attributes can get guys on the podium. If guys were already phenomenal coming in, they can sometimes even get you to the top of the podium. There are even a few guys who really thrive in this environment.
But, I've come to believe this coaching/training system is critically flawed with regard to helping guys reach anything near their potential in the vast majority of cases. One reason is that the Iowa style and Brands' persona and the way he talks to the team (and to the media) combine to foster an environment where most guys feel they have to prove their mental and physical toughness in the practice room and in competition day-in and day-out above all else. The result then, is that the vast majority of guys (if not all) come in to practice each day focused more on out-toughing their partner than on mastering the sport by improving in positions/skills where they need to improve. So, they need to outlast their partner in each live go. They need to drill harder than their partner. They need to push their partner into the wall or off the mat when hand-fighting or live wrestling. They need to be completely exhausted at the end of each live go and at the end of the practice in order to feel like they accomplished anything.
But, if your aim is now to outlast your partner, you're no longer incentivized to wrestle a high-pace or take risks or be creative because you might open yourself up to expending too much energy too quickly when your partner is not making that 'mistake' and now they can take advantage and make you look 'weak' by pushing you around the mat or into the wall or off the mat. Instead, you're incentivized to conserve your energy because the practices are so long and grueling and full of hand-fighting and long live wrestling goes that (it at least seems like) the only way you'll be able to last the whole time without looking 'weak' in the way mentioned previously is by pacing yourself. You're still going to be exhausted at the end of practice either way by nature of the practice structure, but you'll at least have proved your toughness by being able to last the whole time and hopefully demonstrably more so than your partner did. Is this the best mindset to have if you want to efficiently and continuously improve in all positions and facets of wrestling?
Another reason I believe the Brands system is critically flawed is that the frequency and intensity of these types of grueling practices, coupled with this emphasis on proving your toughness, often results in wearing down guys' bodies (increased injury rate), especially after spending multiple years in the program. This is not to say I don't believe in hard work or toughness or pushing yourself to your limits in order to extend your limits. I most certainly do believe in such things. But, I also believe there's so much more to wrestling than these things.
Yet another reason for believing Brands' system to be critically flawed is that, when you constantly preach 'doing it right' and 'clean living' and 'you get what you earn', you set it up in athletes' minds that they pretty much have to be perfect in order to succeed. But perfect is an impossible standard and the athletes know they aren't meeting this standard. So, now they're going into their matches with this nagging feeling that they didn't do it quite right enough and they haven't been living quite clean enough and they haven't been quite earning what they want to get enough. The result is a lack of belief that they have earned the success they are trying to reach.
Additionally, many athletes with a coach or coaches who preach these things expect the coach or coaches to perfectly exemplify these things themselves. And, even though the Brands brothers and the other coaches do a decent job of exemplifying these things most of the time, the athletes are quick to take note when they don't live up to the incredibly high standards they set. For example, if a coach relaxes the standard for clean living with some athletes and not others due to some athletes being deemed too valuable to the team's success to properly hold them accountable for their actions, the rest of the athletes may take notice of that, which can result in feeling like the coach is a bit of a hypocrite the next time that coach starts preaching 'do it right' and 'live clean' and 'you get what you earn'. That's not a great recipe for building trust.
There are other reasons I have come to believe the Brands system is deeply flawed, but this post is already super long so I'll wrap it up with a few closing thoughts. For one thing, I've come to think the grueling practices can and should be had, but that this should be done with utmost moderation. Instead, the majority of practices should be structured to incentivize the type/style/pace of wrestling you want to see your athletes exemplify in competition. Instead of reciting in team speeches and media interviews that you want to see your wrestlers be more active and 'pull the trigger' more, how about actually facilitating this by structuring practices (and team talks and media interviews) in a way that builds in your athletes the confidence to do so rather than essentially structuring the program to achieve the opposite effect. Instead of feeling like you've got to push your team to work harder by structuring your practices and team talks and media interviews in this way, why not trust your athletes to be self-motivated to improve and then facilitate even more self-motivation in your athletes by constantly fostering in them a genuine love for the sport and confidence that they're growing/improving in the sport by focusing on helping them to achieve positional/technical mastery in as many positions as possible?
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I actually know the amount in the Truax situation within a couple thousand bucks and it’s more than a really nice car. But the point was from someone in the Truax family that Bernie never considered the Iowa offer even though it was much more. But vodka thinks he deserves personal texts just because. No I am telling the truth. It’s not the goddamn money. But keep believing it is. People are leaving large amounts of money on the table to not go to Iowa.
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anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb
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Fingers tired? Are you like this in person too?
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anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb
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$30k isn't that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things. $100k would be. Post numbers.
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Haha, at times yes. I am far from perfect.Fingers tired? Are you like this in person too?
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anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb
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You think 30k is a nice car? I drive a BMW x5. That’s a nice car.
I thought it was a great read. Introspection is hard.
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anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb
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Lmao. This is one of the douchiest comments I've seen in this forum.
So you're saying Iowa offered Truax $80k more than PSU?
when I go to the farmer's market, I sometimes have to take my lamborghini. It's embarrassing. I'd rather take my Bentley. Fits in better. I hate looking out of place.
You have a former Iowa wrestler telling you right above you that the system is broken. You have another member of the an Iowa board telling you Iowa doubled the offer PSU did for another wrestler and he chose PSU. I’m a douche because I like my X5? Nah fvck off clown. I’m done with you. To the rest of the board my other theory. The worst thing that happened to Iowa wrestling in the last 10 years was Spencer choosing Iowa. His presence covered up many of the problems in the program. He was a generational talent that won in spite of the Iowa program not because of them. People came to Iowa because of Spencer not the program. The championship caliber was Spencer not the program. Now he’s gone and so is the magic. The cracks he covered up have gotten much larger. You will have a crowd that keeps saying they finish on the podium every year. That’s fine . But that’s not Iowa wrestling of old.
Lamborghini going to scrape that dirt road. You know betterwhen I go to the farmer's market, I sometimes have to take my lamborghini. It's embarrassing. I'd rather take my Bentley. Fits in better. I hate looking out of place.
Unsolicited advice to you on how Penn State achieves what it does. Research these:
1. Functional strength and leverage: Kinesiology.
2. Sports psychology: Bonnie Epstein. “Have fun!”
3. Power and endurance: "Chop wood and carry water."
It ain't that difficult, nor a secret.
1. Functional strength and leverage: Kinesiology.
2. Sports psychology: Bonnie Epstein. “Have fun!”
3. Power and endurance: "Chop wood and carry water."
It ain't that difficult, nor a secret.
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anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb
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This is an outstanding post - one of the best I've ever read on this forum. I think you've done an excellent job articulating the problem with Iowa's training/mentality. Thanks for the insight and for sharing your experience. If you don't mind sharing, who are you or what year were you wrestling at Iowa? Completely understand if you prefer to remain semi-anonymous.
I don’t know, mon. Sounds like he just laid out the views of someone with considerable time spent in the Iowa room with our staff. I found it enlightening.Fingers tired? Are you like this in person too?
Edit: At least fascinating…
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anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb
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Again, you attribute claims and viewpoints to me that I've never made. I've been critical of Iowa and the coaching, recruiting, and training for some time. That doesn't change the discussion about money. You died on a losing hill and signed off bragging about driving a BMW. You've shown you can't have an honest and genuine conversation and you lack the most basic comprehension and reasoning skills.
My gut tells me nothing will change for 5-10 years as far as coaching staff changes.
Guys like Gabe Arnold will be enough for AD to look the other way even when we consistently fight for 3rd at big tens.
I don’t know if we land a spencer Lee in our current state of the program and likely don’t land another one ever again.
So do we let this thing play out and not be in contention for titles for 15-20 years or do we do the uncomfortable thing now so we can make changes to be in a position in 5-10 years?
Guys like Gabe Arnold will be enough for AD to look the other way even when we consistently fight for 3rd at big tens.
I don’t know if we land a spencer Lee in our current state of the program and likely don’t land another one ever again.
So do we let this thing play out and not be in contention for titles for 15-20 years or do we do the uncomfortable thing now so we can make changes to be in a position in 5-10 years?
I'll just say I wrestled for the Brands brothers at Iowa but it's been a little while. I'd rather be able to post somewhat anonymously like mostly everyone else, as I want to keep the discussion about the actual topics and the validity of the opinions themselves instead of who the opinions are coming from.
Great post! How would T&T take this feedback from your perspective? Would they listen or just disregard it? I imagine they would ignore it and stick to their core philosophy.
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