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How much money should Steven Avery get now?

Fan In Black said:
Honest question for you. Have you looked at anything regarding the case from the other side or just the documentary?
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Yes. But I'm looking at it from a juror' perspective as well. And when you put everything together there is mountains of things that would give me reasonable doubt tonhos guilt.

Hell, the jury only had 3 people with "guilty" verdicts after the first count. They were just stubborn and all the people that changed apparently just wanted to go home.
 
HawkCat said:
Dassey's confession is unreliable for a lot of reasons, but that doesn't make Avery innocent.
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No...but the fact that the cops forced him to talk about the hood to give them a reason to look for the planted DNA on the hood latch without swabbing the steering wheel, shifter seat or anywhere else, without there being any blood on the hood latch, makes it almost embarrassingly obvious that they planted DNA on it.
 
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FAUlty Gator said:
Yes. But I'm looking at it from a juror' perspective as well. And when you put everything together there is mountains of things that would give me reasonable doubt tonhos guilt.

Hell, the jury only had 3 people with "guilty" verdicts after the first count. They were just stubborn and all the people that changed apparently just wanted to go home.
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Cool. I was just wondering. You seem to know a lot about the case.
 
FAUlty Gator said:
Yes. But I'm looking at it from a juror' perspective as well.
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No, you're not. You're looking at it from the perspective of someone who only has watched a documentary that presented the evidence from one side. If you are interested in seeing both sides, as the jury did, you might try reading the trial transcript. It is available online, I believe.
 
FAUlty Gator said:
Well...no knowing what circumstantial evidence you're referring to I'm not sure. However, if the evidence is planted and he's being set up, then it's being done to make it look like there is circumstantial evidence, right?

They NEVER looked at any other possible suspect. From the moment the car was found they began to build their case against Avery while ignoring the fact that the ex-boyfriend was stalking her. He had accessed her phone and erased messages after she went missing. Just those two things alone make Avery much less a suspect when it comes to circumstancial evidence than the ex.

Also...

Motive?...he had already been in jail for 18 years, was getting married and had $36 million coming to him. What possible reason would he have to rape and kill someone he has been in contact and has known for years prior to her dying?

He has a car crusher on his lot. Why would he have driven it and covered it with a few branches and not crushed it?
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I have previously posted circumstantial evidence potentially implicating Avery, and an explanation as to why he would not have used the car crusher. You obviously aren't interested in facts that are inconsistent with your view of the case, so I won't waste more of my time. Again, I'm not saying for sure that Avery is guilty. All I am saying is that folks who say there is no evidence supporting the verdict are ignoring evidence presented at trial that the documentary didn't address.
 
Fan In Black said:
Cool. I was just wondering. You seem to know a lot about the case.
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The thing that everyone from Nancy Grace to Hannity to everyone who is swearingnhes guilty is the hood latch DNA that was tested 5 months after all of the other DNA was tested by an independent lab. The hood latch was tested by the Sheriffs crime lab itself.

To test the accuracy of the hood latch DNA theory, Zellner had 15 people open a hood and tested the latches immediately afterwards for DNA. The results they got back was half of them didn't even test positive at all for DNA while the ones that did, had 10 times less DNA on them than what Avery's showed up as 5 MONTHS after sitting there.

Also, they looked at the q tip that they used for the hood latch on the 10 year old Arab 4 and there was NO DIRT at all on it. Whereas the other 15 test swans were basically black from grime. In other words, the latch was bleached clean, then had Aver's DNA placed on it.

Then there's the cockamamie bullet "evidence" with her DNA on it, which is ridiculous. After further testing, It had wood on it as well as chap stick. Meaning they picked one up off the garage floor that had been shot trough the wall (several bullets had been there) and then they got the chapstock from her car and put it on the bullet to get her DNA on it. If she was shot directly through the head, how did wood paneling from the garage get on it as well as well as her chapstick? But no bone fragments which appeared on EVERY bullet they tested afterwards?
 
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HawkCat said:
I have previously posted circumstantial evidence potentially implicating Avery, and an explanation as to why he would not have used the car crusher. You obviously aren't interested in facts that are inconsistent with your view of the case, so I won't waste more of my time. Again, I'm not saying for sure that Avery is guilty. All I am saying is that folks who say there is no evidence supporting the verdict are ignoring evidence presented at trial that the documentary didn't address.
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I asked you to tell me about the evidence. There's no doubt that there as things lay he should be the main suspect with the circumstantial evidence...until they bring to unravel with proof of them being placed there.

I don't recall what you pointed to so I'm not ignoring anything. And again, I'm saying there's a ridiculous amount of things that would let me meet the "reasonable doubt" threshold...Along with 9 other jurors at the outset of deliberations. I think there is a lot of evidence that points to a frame up...which is done for the sole purpose of making it look like there is circumstantial evidence.
 
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FAUlty Gator said:
Yes. But I'm looking at it from a juror' perspective as well. And when you put everything together there is mountains of things that would give me reasonable doubt tonhos guilt.

Hell, the jury only had 3 people with "guilty" verdicts after the first count. They were just stubborn and all the people that changed apparently just wanted to go home.
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One of those 3 jurors was the father of a Manitowac County LEO,
 
strummingram said:
I trust Kathleen Zellner's abilities... period. If she cannot prove him guilty, then he's not guilty. She, and her staff, are like the Stephen Hawking of these kinds of cases. They cannot recreate the State's version of what allegedly happened.
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Yup. They can't figure out how a the bullet got wood paneling and chapstick on it and was found on the garage floor when all of their tests showed:

- A bullet to the head from a .22 wouldn't ever exit the head to begin with. This means it would have burned in the fire...which it didn't.

- the bullet would have had calcium and phosphorus on it which means it came in contact with a bone. It didn't have that on it.

Obviously it wasn't a bullet that had anything to do with the death of her.
 
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The problem is they used Dassey's confession to tilt the case in their favor. Once they had that they shifted their efforts at painting a disgusting picture that they did not even use in the trial. Kratz' detailed press conference went to great lengths to paint Avery as a monster.
They withheld major evidence from the defense that sheds doubt as to what exactly happened that night. Avery didnt call the victim 60 times that day. He called her 3. The ex boyfriend called the sheriff who found the rav4 40 some times the night before the car was recovered.
The whole thing irritates me to no end. It's obvious the county had a vendetta against Avery and everything that was recovered to pin him, was from the county who wasnt even suppose to be apart of the investigation.
But it's not just the county that is slimey. Now, it's a statewide save your ass or kiss it goodbye mentality.
 
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FAUlty Gator said:
Yup. They can't figure out how a the bullet got wood paneling and chapstick on it and was found on the garage floor when all of their tests showed:

- A bullet to the head from a .22 wouldn't ever exit the head to begin with. This means it would have burned in the fire...which it didn't.

- the bullet would have had calcium and phosphorus on it which means it came in contact with a bone. It didn't have that on it.

Obviously it wasn't a bullet that had anything to do with the death of her.
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Based on what the Prosecution put forth, it is a completely absurd notion that he was found guilty. And this is just one case that became a high-profile subject due to the story behind it. God only knows the actual number of similar cases where people are locked-up, or executed by the state because they had-it-in for someone they didn't like. Or, because they lacked the initiative to find the real culprit, or who-knows-what-else. I hope it doesn't happen often, but it shouldn't happen at all.

I realize that the family of Holbach want closure, but that is impossible. I don't care if they find the real killer or not, as far as their closure is concerned. They will never get closure because closure isn't an option in a situation like this. You learn to live with the loss as best you can.

If these people can be locked-up for life for something they didn't do, then none of us are safe.
 
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The events in Season 2 Episode 9 are easy if you want to talk about circumstances and insane coincidences.

Nov. 4 a witness tells in a affidavit says he told Officer Andy Colburn (the guy who suppressed rape evidence that would free Avery 10 years prior) in a gas station that he just saw the Rav 4 up the road.

That same day there is a recording of Colburn to dispatch reading off her plate number as he found it. He lied in the trial and said he just happened to call dispatch and wasn't looking at the vehicle.

The next day there are 20 calls from LEO to Hillegas' phone, presumably where they were telling him where to drive the Rav4. Zellner presumes there are that many calls because he calls kept getting dropped in that area and she had to keep calling.

It's reported by Avery's brother that that's the exact same time that he saw headlights on his road.

The next day the lead detective (Wiegert) is recorded saying that the boss says they need to get permission for the search party to search the area that the RAV4 was moved to (found).

Then by a HUGE coincidence, Hillegas gives his camera to the lady that he knows is going to be searching in that area. He had t given his camera to anyone else during the entire search.

The lady with the camera finds the vehicle that day.

Wow.
 
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FAUlty Gator said:
The events in Season 2 Episode 9 are easy if you want to talk about circumstances and insane coincidences.

Nov. 4 a witness tells in a affidavit says he told Officer Andy Colburn (the guy who suppressed rape evidence that would free Avery 10 years prior) in a gas station that he just saw the Rav 4 up the road.

That same day there is a recording of Colburn to dispatch reading off her plate number as he found it. He lied in the trial and said he just happened to call dispatch and wasn't looking at the vehicle.

The next day there are 20 calls from LEO to Hillegas' phone, presumably where they were telling him where to drive the Rav4. Zellner presumes there are that many calls because he calls kept getting dropped in that area and she had to keep calling.

It's reported by Avery's brother that that's the exact same time that he saw headlights on his road.

The next day the lead detective (Wiegert) is recorded saying that the boss says they need to get permission for the search party to search the area that the RAV4 was moved to (found).

Then by a HUGE coincidence, Hillegas gives his camera to the lady that he knows is going to be searching in that area. He had t given his camera to anyone else during the entire search.

The lady with the camera finds the vehicle that day.

Wow.
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Andy Colburn... I dunno how people like him sleep at night.
 
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FAUlty Gator said:
The thing that everyone from Nancy Grace to Hannity to everyone who is swearingnhes guilty is the hood latch DNA that was tested 5 months after all of the other DNA was tested by an independent lab. The hood latch was tested by the Sheriffs crime lab itself.

To test the accuracy of the hood latch DNA theory, Zellner had 15 people open a hood and tested the latches immediately afterwards for DNA. The results they got back was half of them didn't even test positive at all for DNA while the ones that did, had 10 times less DNA on them than what Avery's showed up as 5 MONTHS after sitting there.

Also, they looked at the q tip that they used for the hood latch on the 10 year old Arab 4 and there was NO DIRT at all on it. Whereas the other 15 test swans were basically black from grime. In other words, the latch was bleached clean, then had Aver's DNA placed on it.

Then there's the cockamamie bullet "evidence" with her DNA on it, which is ridiculous. After further testing, It had wood on it as well as chap stick. Meaning they picked one up off the garage floor that had been shot trough the wall (several bullets had been there) and then they got the chapstock from her car and put it on the bullet to get her DNA on it. If she was shot directly through the head, how did wood paneling from the garage get on it as well as well as her chapstick? But no bone fragments which appeared on EVERY bullet they tested afterwards?
Click to expand...

The blood in the vehicle, and the inability to re-create the latch scenario, destroyed the prosecution case for me. Her team is outstanding.
 
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SHAWKER said:
The problem is they used Dassey's confession to tilt the case in their favor. Once they had that they shifted their efforts at painting a disgusting picture that they did not even use in the trial. Kratz' detailed press conference went to great lengths to paint Avery as a monster.
They withheld major evidence from the defense that sheds doubt as to what exactly happened that night. Avery didnt call the victim 60 times that day. He called her 3. The ex boyfriend called the sheriff who found the rav4 40 some times the night before the car was recovered.
The whole thing irritates me to no end. It's obvious the county had a vendetta against Avery and everything that was recovered to pin him, was from the county who wasnt even suppose to be apart of the investigation.
But it's not just the county that is slimey. Now, it's a statewide save your ass or kiss it goodbye mentality.
Click to expand...


They manipulated Dassey for ONE reason. They immediately turned him from someone who was going to testify on behalf of Avery into someone that now needed immunity and the only way to get it was by testifying against him. The only problem for them was that Dassey is retarded and wasn't going to benefit ANYONE on the stand.
 
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I think Brendan might know that Bobby did it, and wants to cover up for his brother. So he came up with this idiotic story during the confession, which makes sense to nobody, thinking he was getting Bobby off the hook. Of course he got himself incarcerated in the process.
 
imagine sitting in jail when 3 federal judges have reasonable doubt that you should be there.
 
Menace Sockeyes said:
Imagine a world that thinks this justice system has the right to take someone's life, or their voting rights after they've served time?
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It's easy if you try...


You don't have to imagine it. It's reality.


Shit like this is exactly why I have no interest in defending US Military endeavors. This is not the Land of the Free. That's a fvcking slogan, a piece of propaganda. It's a tender notion, but it's not the truth. I've had friends and family argue with me and say "So, it has to be perfect to be true?" And, I say "Do you need a heartbeat to be alive? Are they free? Are WE free? No? If it's not perfect, then stop pretending it is and fix it first."
 
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“Brad, who dropped a rap song about Brendan and Steven titled “They Didn’t Do It” in 2016...”

I hope this makes it into season 3.
 
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