This isn’t funny or true. You are a disgusting person. Lots of people have mental or emotional conditions and disorders. Have some damn compassion.
How will Lia Thomas do at Swimming Nationals?
- Thread starter FAUlty Gator
- Start date
This isn’t funny or true. You are a disgusting person. Lots of people have mental or emotional conditions and disorders. Have some damn compassion.
That's an awful story but I'm not sure how a transgender law would have prevented it. The guy was a pervert and I'm glad the girl is fine.
You should stop thinking people are transitioning just to excel in sports. While that is possible for a person to transition just to excel in sports, i am guessing this is not the primary reason.
In fact, hopefully our medical community would catch this and prevent the transition since excelling at sports is not a reason to become trans. I assume the fact you even mention this might be insulting to trans people.
I understand your intentions, but it is important to see that not all decisions in life can be explained rationally.
Well if that's the case than you won't see a single transwoman competing who transitioned after puberty. If that's the criteria they actually will go by, sounds like it's done.
Oh, I agree. No one is transitioning to excel in sports despite the claims of many posters that boys will be lining up to take hormones in order to be stars in women's athletics. The point I was trying to make is that allowing transgender teens to compete with the gender they identify should not be a concern especially at the high school level. Many people cite scholarships as the reason it shouldn't be allowed and I think that is a silly argument. Like I said in another thread college scholarships are given out nationwide. Say for example there are 500 NCAA scholarships given for track each year. If one transgender female receives a scholarship that is 1 cis gender girl in the nation not getting a track scholarship. That same cis gender girl can still go to the college of her choice and walk on to play the sport she loves. She may even earn a scholarship. Either way it's hardly the massive unfairness some are claiming.
I agree. It's basically banning transgender women, without doing it outright. I am not saying it's the right choice, but at least their is some criteria for deciding who can participate.
That's the thing with the bathroom laws. People say you are a transphobe because just because someone is a trans doesn't mean they are a predator. 100%. I couldn't agree more. HOWEVER, a predator could certainly pretend to be trans to gain access to children.
My post was mostly tongue in cheek, because it's unlikely they will actually be honest enough to admit that advantages for transwomen begin while in pubescent male development.
They'll tokenly throw out the "suppression of testosterone" line to make it look like "the science" is behind their decision to let transwomen compete.
The biggest issue as I see it is that we've arbitrarily created a dual system of gender. The truth is, if you really are willing to break it down into some smaller boxes that we actually find there are far more classifications and that no one falls neatly into the binary system. However since that's the system we have created as a society, a male who is on the extreme end of what we define as "male" gender has no where else to go but into the female category.
There was a really interesting scientific article that tried to approach gender in a much more nuanced and statistical way and it resulted in something like there really being something like 8 genders. (It's been a few years since I read it and my google skills failed me in the 3 minutes I took to search). But I think we'd be a much better society if we were more comfortable with the nuance. But nuance isn't easy.
There was a really interesting scientific article that tried to approach gender in a much more nuanced and statistical way and it resulted in something like there really being something like 8 genders. (It's been a few years since I read it and my google skills failed me in the 3 minutes I took to search). But I think we'd be a much better society if we were more comfortable with the nuance. But nuance isn't easy.
36 months of hormone treatment before competing is a pretty big obstacle. Why do you think the panel would not try to make a fair decision? Do you think they have a stake in allowing transgenders to complete in women's swimming?
currently the NCAA is only one year I believe. Three years seems good to me, however no amount of hormone treatments will shrink limbs or lower respiratory functions which trans athletes always will likely have advantages with. There's no way to undo that advantage.
Now not all men who transition will have long legs and stronger lungs.
So, who knows what we should do.
Because for the hundredth time, there are muscular, skeletal, and ligament development differences from going through puberty as a male that continue despite what current testosterone levels are.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3
"Longitudinal studies examining the effects of testosterone suppression on muscle mass and strength in transgender women consistently show very modest changes, where the loss of lean body mass, muscle area and strength typically amounts to approximately 5% after 12 months of treatment. Thus, the muscular advantage enjoyed by transgender women is only minimally reduced when testosterone is suppressed. Sports organizations should consider this evidence when reassessing current policies regarding participation of transgender women in the female category of sport.
The pioneer work by Gooren and colleagues, published in part in 1999 [61] and in full in 2004 [62], reported the effects of 1 and 3 years of testosterone suppression and estrogen supplementation in 19 transgender women (age 18–37 years). After the first year of therapy, testosterone levels were reduced to 1 nmol/L, well within typical female reference ranges, and remained low throughout the study course. As determined by MRI, thigh muscle area had decreased by − 9% from baseline measurement. After 3 years, thigh muscle area had decreased by a further − 3% from baseline measurement (total loss of − 12% over 3 years of treatment). However, when compared with the baseline measurement of thigh muscle area in transgender men (who are born female and experience female puberty), transgender women retained significantly higher thigh muscle size. The final thigh muscle area, after three years of testosterone suppression, was 13% larger in transwomen than in the transmen at baseline (p < 0.05). The authors concluded that testosterone suppression in transgender women does not reverse muscle size to female levels.
We have shown that under testosterone suppression regimes typically used in clinical settings, and which comfortably exceed the requirements of sports federations for inclusion of transgender women in female sports categories by reducing testosterone levels to well below the upper tolerated limit, evidence for loss of the male performance advantage, established by testosterone at puberty and translating in elite athletes to a 10–50% performance advantage, is lacking. Rather, the data show that strength, lean body mass, muscle size and bone density are only trivially affected. The reductions observed in muscle mass, size, and strength are very small compared to the baseline differences between males and females in these variables, and thus, there are major performance and safety implications in sports where these attributes are competitively significant."
And another study that looks at physiological differences that originate at puberty.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/cen.13350
"Given its importance for the general health of the transgender population, there are multiple studies of bone health, and reviews of these data. To summarise, transgender women often have low baseline (pre-intervention) bone mineral density (BMD), attributed to low levels of physical activity, especially weight-bearing exercise, and low vitamin D levels [52, 53]. However, transgender women generally maintain bone mass over the course of at least 24 months of testosterone suppression. There may even be small but significant increases in BMD at the lumbar spine [54, 55]. Some retrieved studies present data pertaining to maintained BMD in transgender women after many years of testosterone suppression. One such study concluded that “BMD is preserved over a median of 12.5 years” [56]. In support, no increase in fracture rates was observed over 12 months of testosterone suppression [54]. Current advice, including that from the International Society for Clinical Densitometry, is that transgender women, in the absence of other risk factors, do not require monitoring of BMD [52, 57]. This is explicable under current standard treatment regimes, given the established positive effect of estrogen, rather than testosterone, on bone turnover in males [58].
Given the maintenance of BMD and the lack of a plausible biological mechanism by which testosterone suppression might affect skeletal measurements such as bone length and hip width, we conclude that height and skeletal parameters remain unaltered in transgender women, and that sporting advantage conferred by skeletal size and bone density would be retained despite testosterone reductions compliant with the IOC’s current guidelines. This is of particular relevance to sports where height, limb length and handspan are key (e.g. basketball, volleyball, handball) and where high movement efficiency is advantageous. Male bone geometry and density may also provide protection against some sport-related injuries—for example, males have a lower incidence of knee injuries, often attributed to low quadriceps (Q) angle conferred by a narrow pelvic girdle [59, 60]."
It is now, but starting next year the NCAA is going to abide by the national committee for each sport which for swimming is 36 months and panel approval. It's from the ESPN article in this tweet I posted.
Lovely article, but it still doesn't answer my question about the panel's motivation to approve someone with what you see as obvious advantages.
Hmmmm, let me think what motivate some people...
Definitely not politics, you can surely rule that out.
Just so we're clear here, you fully understand and trust the science that biological males, when going through puberty as a male, have an inherent advantage as a transwoman over cis-gendered females, correct?
Yes, if the sport requires size or larger lungs. I doubt it would be an advantage for women's gymnastics like the balance beam competition. Muscle strength would be impacted by hormone treatment.
I dont think sex has ever been assigned arbitrarily. And that is really what we are dealing with for trans stuff. I mean when i go to buy a pet, i buy a male or female. there isnt a designation for a male dog who acts like a female dog.
Gender is where our country/world has gone full on crazy. But also, this has never been arbitrary.
It is natural to have different characteristics as men and women. there is a natural spectrum that our country has decided to ignore.
For some reason. Our society decided to not accept this natural variation. Instead we have decided to say we are trans instead of being a male with feminine characteristics. It seems minor, but its a huge distinction.
you're actually wrong on "nature". I mean Hell, we have some species where one member changes their gender as needed. This is the same type of bs argument that people used to make about lgbtq all together that it never happened in nature even though there's tons of evidence that it always has.
And gender is a construct we as a society have created to label people. Native Americans, for example, had at least 4 genders (Some had more). Japan's history had three genders at one point. So the idea that gender is always binary simply isn't true. It's just our Judeo-Christian worldview that says it's so.
Apparently her twitter account was suspended for this.
“I’m a 5th year senior, I have been top 16 and top 8 before and I know how much of a privilege it is to make finals at a meet this big,” Gyorgy said in the letter reprinted on SwimSwam and Swimming World. “This is my last college meet ever and I feel frustrated. It feels like that final spot was taken away from me because of the NCAA’s decision to let someone who is not a biological female compete.”
“I’m a 5th year senior, I have been top 16 and top 8 before and I know how much of a privilege it is to make finals at a meet this big,” Gyorgy said in the letter reprinted on SwimSwam and Swimming World. “This is my last college meet ever and I feel frustrated. It feels like that final spot was taken away from me because of the NCAA’s decision to let someone who is not a biological female compete.”
Fun fact about Reka, she competed in the 2016 Olympics. The Olympics have allowed transgender athletes to compete for 18 years.Apparently her twitter account was suspended for this.
“I’m a 5th year senior, I have been top 16 and top 8 before and I know how much of a privilege it is to make finals at a meet this big,” Gyorgy said in the letter reprinted on SwimSwam and Swimming World. “This is my last college meet ever and I feel frustrated. It feels like that final spot was taken away from me because of the NCAA’s decision to let someone who is not a biological female compete.”
The **** does that have to do with anything?
You think female Olympic athletes are happy about it?
https://www.reuters.com/lifestyle/s...transgender-issue-ex-weightlifter-2021-05-07/
Former Olympic weightlifter Tracey Lambrechs says females are being told to “be quiet” when they complain about the fairness of transgender New Zealand athlete Laurel Hubbard competing in women’s competitions.
"We're all about equality for women in sport but right now that equality is being taken away from us.
"I've had female weightlifters come up to me and say, 'what do we do? This isn’t fair, what do we do?'. Unfortunately, there's nothing we can do because every time we voice it we get told to be quiet."
I am saying that many people probably think Reka is just a regular swimmer that missed her big chance to compete at a high level. The truth is she has competed at the highest level in her sport in the past. She still has the right to complain, but there might not be as much sympathy thrown her way if everyone knows her past achievements.
How dare she - she's not even American!!!!1111 You want people like her taking medals from blonde haired American girls? Why can't she swim in her own country?? Don't they have pools? She can swim with her own kind, it's not fair that she's here taking our medals from hard working blonde haired, blued eyed American girls!! Any proud patriot should know this!!111Apparently her twitter account was suspended for this.
“I’m a 5th year senior, I have been top 16 and top 8 before and I know how much of a privilege it is to make finals at a meet this big,” Gyorgy said in the letter reprinted on SwimSwam and Swimming World. “This is my last college meet ever and I feel frustrated. It feels like that final spot was taken away from me because of the NCAA’s decision to let someone who is not a biological female compete.”
Ah, so she competed at the highest level previously among cis-gendered females but now that a transwoman is competing she no longer has a spot.
Great point. If I didn't know better I'd say you're trying to prove my point for me.
Two things, she competed at the Olympics where transgender athletes have been allowed to compete for 18 years and secondly she competed in a totally different event. She had the 17 fastest time in the 500 so the likelihood she would have gotten a medal is low. I just think it's a petty thing to complain about, the women who came in 2,3,4,6th have legitimate complaints, but 17th come on?
She is also a citizen of a country where the government has passed legislation that restricts the civil rights of LGBT Hungarians – such as ending legal recognition of transgender Hungarians. Her post may be more a political statement for her country.
Other cis-gendered females would have wiped the pool with Lia that day. Hell she was 7 seconds behind Katie Ledecky's WR. For some reason we have to coddle this snowflake though.
What is your point? That someone who was shitty as a mens swimmer (ranked #462) but magically became a top 10 female swimmer, winning a D1 title in the process, is actually fair because they're still not as good as the best cis-gendered female swimmer ever?
You know you can still be a shitty swimmer even with sex derived physical advantages, right? I'd get my ass kicked by Ledecky as well, but it doesn't mean it would be fair that I beat x% of other cis-gendered females I competed against.
I love science and the red white and blue. You commie! Why do you hate American women? Why do you want our beautiful blonde girls to suffer so??
This seems to be your standard response when confronted with a post with which you disagree. In my experience people who default to curse words usually can't express a reasoned argument.
Other girls were there and got beat. They're not searching for their 15 minutes of victimhood fame.
