Iowans are sharply divided on banning transgender girls from female sports, Iowa Poll finds

artradley

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Women are also much more likely to recognize that youth sports really don't need to be hyper-competitive like they are. Europeans and most others around the globe think it's INSANE that Americans take high school and younger sports as seriously as they do.

We all know dudes that are still way into how their old high school sports teams perform well into their 40s and 50s -- many of them post on this very forum. When you think about it rationally, it is sort of ridiculous that middle aged men give two shits about which teenage teams beat which teenage teams.

What about in college, where a scholarship is on the line. Are we okay with trans taking scholarships for women? How about small business loans targeting women? Are we okay with Amy Schneider getting one of those over someone else?
 
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artradley

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No, it's definitely politically motivated. All these states just so happened to attack this all at once. That reeks of a coordinated political effort.

Just because someone’s motivations are questionable doesn’t mean they aren’t on the right side of any issue. And just because someone’s motives are pure doesn’t mean they are right.
 

Huey Grey

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Just because someone’s motivations are questionable doesn’t mean they aren’t on the right side of any issue. And just because someone’s motives are pure doesn’t mean they are right.
This avoids my point.
 

artradley

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This avoids my point.

No, it does not. It conceded your point and argued that your point is not necessarily relevant to the correctness of the law. You were impuning the motives of those writing the laws, which does not address the substance of the law.
 

gohawks50

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What about in college, where a scholarship is on the line. Are we okay with trans taking scholarships for women? How about small business loans targeting women? Are we okay with Amy Schneider getting one of those over someone else?
The NCAA has allowed transgender women to compete with women since 2011. Have a significant number of cis gender women lost scholarships due to that policy?

2011 NCAA Policy on Transgender Student-Athlete Participation

The following policies clarify the participation of transgender student-athletes undergoing hormonal treatment for gender transition:

1. A trans male (FTM) student-athlete who has received a medical exception for treatment with testosterone for diagnosed Gender Identity Disorder or gender dysphoria and/or Transsexualism, for purposes of NCAA competition may compete on a men’s team, but is no longer eligible to compete on a women’s team without changing that team status to a mixed team.

2. A trans female (MTF) student-athlete being treated with testosterone suppression medication for Gender Identity Disorder or gender dysphoria and/or Transsexualism, for the purposes of NCAA competition may continue to compete on a men’s team but may not compete on a women’s team without changing it to a mixed team status until completing one calendar year of testosterone suppression treatment.



Any transgender student-athlete who is not taking hormone treatment related to gender transition may participate in sex-separated sports activities in accordance with his or her assigned birth gender.

• A trans male (FTM) student-athlete who is not taking testosterone related to gender transition may participate on a men’s or women’s team.

• A trans female (MTF) transgender student-athlete who is not taking hormone treatments related to gender transition may not compete on a women’s team.

 
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artradley

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The NCAA has allowed transgender women to compete with women since 2011. Have a significant number of cis gender women lost scholarships due to that policy?

2011 NCAA Policy on Transgender Student-Athlete Participation

The following policies clarify the participation of transgender student-athletes undergoing hormonal treatment for gender transition:

1. A trans male (FTM) student-athlete who has received a medical exception for treatment with testosterone for diagnosed Gender Identity Disorder or gender dysphoria and/or Transsexualism, for purposes of NCAA competition may compete on a men’s team, but is no longer eligible to compete on a women’s team without changing that team status to a mixed team.

2. A trans female (MTF) student-athlete being treated with testosterone suppression medication for Gender Identity Disorder or gender dysphoria and/or Transsexualism, for the purposes of NCAA competition may continue to compete on a men’s team but may not compete on a women’s team without changing it to a mixed team status until completing one calendar year of testosterone suppression treatment.



Any transgender student-athlete who is not taking hormone treatment related to gender transition may participate in sex-separated sports activities in accordance with his or her assigned birth gender.

• A trans male (FTM) student-athlete who is not taking testosterone related to gender transition may participate on a men’s or women’s team.

• A trans female (MTF) transgender student-athlete who is not taking hormone treatments related to gender transition may not compete on a women’s team.


And?
 

SiouxCityHawkFan

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What other side? It's the GOP launching all of these coordinated attacks.
Are you saying the left isn't portraying people that are for these laws as people who hate transgender? I am for these laws and I don't have anything against transgender people. I am all for people doing what they want. I just don't think it's fair to females for biological males to compete in female sports.
 

swagsurfer02

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In my opinion it seems almost sexist that we say a person born a biological male is the best woman at XYZ sport due to the physical advantages they possess.

On the flip side the I don’t care much about the trans lady on Jeopardy who won a bunch simply because I don’t think men have an advantage when it comes to intelligence.
 

artradley

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And where are all these trans women that are stealing scholarships from cis gender women? Iowa's law along with other states changing their policy has not affected the NCAA so it's not solving the problem you are predicting.

I didn’t claim they are. And I did not make a prediction. I am asking if people would be okay with the idea? Would someone who is okay with a young boy playing in a girl’s league be okay a few years later with a college girl loosing a scholarship to a boy who transitioned. If I am making a prediction p, it is that polling might be different depending on what is at stake.
 

artradley

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In my opinion it seems almost sexist that we say a person born a biological male is the best woman at XYZ sport due to the physical advantages they possess.

On the flip side the I don’t care much about the trans lady on Jeopardy who won a bunch simply because I don’t think men have an advantage when it comes to intelligence.

Agreed. If we are interested in fairness, the question is whether or not one’s biological sex provides an advantage. In sports it does. In Jeopardy, it does not.
 

Huey Grey

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No, it does not. It conceded your point and argued that your point is not necessarily relevant to the correctness of the law. You were impuning the motives of those writing the laws, which does not address the substance of the law.
It's hard to believe that a full frontal attack by multiple states to basically ban trans kids is anything more than pot stirring by the Republicans.
 

gohawks50

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I didn’t claim they are. And I did not make a prediction. I am asking if people would be okay with the idea? Would someone who is okay with a young boy playing in a girl’s league be okay a few years later with a college girl loosing a scholarship to a boy who transitioned. If I am making a prediction p, it is that polling might be different depending on what is at stake.
My point is the policy is already there to allow your scenario to happen, but it's not happening. Maybe that means we don't need to be concerned about the possibility.
 
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abby97

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Can you that support trans women competing against women please explain why? I agree what someone wants to do with their life or be is none of my business, but when you interfere with other's lives or goals then that is a problem. There is an old expression, your freedom ends at my nose.

We all have to make choices in life so I believe the only fair choice is if you were born a male and want to participate in sports then you need to participate in male leagues. We come down hard on women athletes that take male hormones to gain an advantage but for some reason the left wants to give a pass to trans women, it makes no sense. The Penn swimmer Lia was rated 487 as a male swimmer and now is rated #1 as a female, just sayin........
 

Huey Grey

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I didn’t claim they are. And I did not make a prediction. I am asking if people would be okay with the idea? Would someone who is okay with a young boy playing in a girl’s league be okay a few years later with a college girl loosing a scholarship to a boy who transitioned. If I am making a prediction p, it is that polling might be different depending on what is at stake.
I'm puzzled. You just admitted that this problem is non existent. So how is it "correct" to claim that it is needed?
 

artradley

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My point is the policy is already there to allow your scenario to happen, but it's not happening. Maybe that means we don't need to be concerned about the possibility.

I agree it’s not likely to be a major problem. I am discussing the principle involved. And there is, of course, always a chance that it could become a problem. When money becomes involved, there is no telling what people are willing to do. It’s good to discuss the principle now.
 

SiouxCityHawkFan

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Yes, they are. Some states just made it illegal for teenagers to transition. That is undeniably bannimg trans kids. This issue has blown up way beyond sports.
When you say make it illegal to transition, do you mean have surgery?
 

artradley

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It's hard to believe that a full frontal attack by multiple states to basically ban trans kids is anything more than pot stirring by the Republicans.

You really are missing the point here, even though I held your hand through it in my last post.
 

gohawks50

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I agree it’s not likely to be a major problem. I am discussing the principle involved. And there is, of course, always a chance that it could become a problem. When money becomes involved, there is no telling what people are willing to do. It’s good to discuss the principle now.
I'm fine with discussions about potential problems and ideas for possible solutions, but I don't agree with states over reacting and making laws to avoid something that isn't happening. As I've said before there has to be a middle ground, but right now the only method being used for dealing with this issue is punishing transgender youth and their parents.
 

Hoosierhawkeye

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Women are also much more likely to recognize that youth sports really don't need to be hyper-competitive like they are. Europeans and most others around the globe think it's INSANE that Americans take high school and younger sports as seriously as they do.

We all know dudes that are still way into how their old high school sports teams perform well into their 40s and 50s -- many of them post on this very forum. When you think about it rationally, it is sort of ridiculous that middle aged men give two shits about which teenage teams beat which teenage teams.

I'm not really following my old HS team.

That said I don't see it as a problem if one follows and roots for their old high school team.

I do however see it as a problem if tons and tons of pressure are put on kids under the age of 14 to be successful at sports. Sports before that age should be about fun and that's it. When you get into high school a light amount of pressure to win is acceptable, but they don't need to be treated like they are pro-athletes either.
 
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Hoosierhawkeye

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I'm fine with discussions about potential problems and ideas for possible solutions, but I don't agree with states over reacting and making laws to avoid something that isn't happening. As I've said before there has to be a middle ground, but right now the only method being used for dealing with this issue is punishing transgender youth and their parents.

The problem is I don't think trans-women should compete in female sports on a wide basis until it can be conclusively proven through a great deal of peer reviewed testing that there is no advantage. And I think you have to do that not by measuring the drop off between the top players but measuring the drop off between the average players.

With timed sports like track or swimming this is easiest.

It's a little harder in team sports but I could think of some ways it could be done.
 

torbee

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Agreed. If we are interested in fairness, the question is whether or not one’s biological sex provides an advantage. In sports it does. In Jeopardy, it does not.
When I was a kid, I’d often bitch about things being “unfair” and without fail, mom or dad would say “guess what kid? LIFE isn’t fair.” And sure enough, I came to see that mom and dad were right as usual.

Is it the role of a legislature to create laws for every single instance in life when something isn’t fair, regardless of the scale of the problem (which in the case of females losing scholarships to trans athletes appears to be extremely rare if not basically non-existent?)

I personally don’t think it’s fair for trans athletes to compete against non-trans athletes due to their natural (though reduced through hormone therapy) strength and size advantages. But it just does not strike me as an issue large enough or pervasive enough to require a legislative fix. I could rattle off at least 10 more pressing “fairness” issues in 5 minutes that are more egregious and affect more people and have not been addressed for decades, that would deserve legislative action before this one.
 

Tfxchawk

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Women are also much more likely to recognize that youth sports really don't need to be hyper-competitive like they are. Europeans and most others around the globe think it's INSANE that Americans take high school and younger sports as seriously as they do.

We all know dudes that are still way into how their old high school sports teams perform well into their 40s and 50s -- many of them post on this very forum. When you think about it rationally, it is sort of ridiculous that middle aged men give two shits about which teenage teams beat which teenage teams.
I lived in Europe as a child. You are wrong. They are just as if not more insane. Sports just aren't in schools
 

gohawks50

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The problem is I don't think trans-women should compete in female sports on a wide basis until it can be conclusively proven through a great deal of peer reviewed testing that there is no advantage. And I think you have to do that not by measuring the drop off between the top players but measuring the drop off between the average players.

With timed sports like track or swimming this is easiest.

It's a little harder in team sports but I could think of some ways it could be done.
How can these studies be conducted if it is illegal for transwomen to compete against cis gender women? We have some information about how transgender athletes are comparing with cis gender athletes by looking at places where it is happening now, aside from Lia Thomas and a couple of track stars in Connecticut, transgender women don't seem to be dominating. Even though Lia is winning a lot of races in the Ivy league she doesn't hold any NCAA records so other cis gender athletes have better times.

Here is part of an article I found interesting, I'll post a link so you can read the whole thing if you are interested:

I say “theoretical” because it’s unclear that transgender females really are physically superior to cisgender females. As Dr. Jack Turban, a fellow in child and adolescent psychiatry at Stanford University School of Medicine, told public radio in May 2021, cisgender men may perform better than cisgender females, “but a cisgender man is not a transgender woman.” The hormone treatments many transgender females receive limit or eliminate any potential testosterone benefit. The rare transgender female who plays sports may have little advantage – or no advantage at all.

California has let students choose whether to play boys’ or girls’ sports based on their self-perception, regardless of their birth gender, since 2013. Nonetheless, in a state with nearly 40 million people, no transgender girls are dominating sports leagues, Turban noted. If they were, transgender rights opponents are sure to say so.

The common sense: Athletes of any gender can have a genetic edge, such as a 6-foot, 1-inch cisgender female volleyball player, a long-legged cisgender female hurdler, or a big-boned cisgender female softball catcher. Athletes everywhere capitalize on genetic differences to win in sports.

But success goes beyond genetics to natural ability, dedication and training, all accessible to anyone. Ask any guy who’s had a woman hand him his head on a basketball court or softball diamond.

So, if the risk of a transgender female dominating an Iowa sport is insignificant, there must be another reason Iowa Republicans want to block them.

I wonder what it is.

 
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torbee

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My other question for those who insist a legislative remedy is needed is this: are there not already organizations - IHSAA and NCAA come to mind - that are expressly tasked with ensuring fair and equitable competition? And aren’t those organizations infinitely closer and more informed about the sports and athletes they oversee?

Are we really to believe that members of the Iowa Legislature are better equipped to set the rules for competition and fairness than the actual on-the-ground organizations that exist to make those rules and are involved with sports on a day-to-day basis? Frankly, that assertion seems ludicrous.
 

Hoosierhawkeye

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How can these studies be conducted if it is illegal for transwomen to compete against cis gender women? We have some information about how transgender athletes are comparing with cis gender athletes by looking at places where it is happening now, aside from Lia Thomas and a couple of track stars in Connecticut, transgender women don't seem to be dominating. Even though Lia is winning a lot of races in the Ivy league she doesn't hold any NCAA records so other cis gender athletes have better times.

Here is part of an article I found interesting, I'll post a link so you can read the whole thing if you are interested:

I say “theoretical” because it’s unclear that transgender females really are physically superior to cisgender females. As Dr. Jack Turban, a fellow in child and adolescent psychiatry at Stanford University School of Medicine, told public radio in May 2021, cisgender men may perform better than cisgender females, “but a cisgender man is not a transgender woman.” The hormone treatments many transgender females receive limit or eliminate any potential testosterone benefit. The rare transgender female who plays sports may have little advantage – or no advantage at all.

California has let students choose whether to play boys’ or girls’ sports based on their self-perception, regardless of their birth gender, since 2013. Nonetheless, in a state with nearly 40 million people, no transgender girls are dominating sports leagues, Turban noted. If they were, transgender rights opponents are sure to say so.

The common sense: Athletes of any gender can have a genetic edge, such as a 6-foot, 1-inch cisgender female volleyball player, a long-legged cisgender female hurdler, or a big-boned cisgender female softball catcher. Athletes everywhere capitalize on genetic differences to win in sports.

But success goes beyond genetics to natural ability, dedication and training, all accessible to anyone. Ask any guy who’s had a woman hand him his head on a basketball court or softball diamond.

So, if the risk of a transgender female dominating an Iowa sport is insignificant, there must be another reason Iowa Republicans want to block them.

I wonder what it is.


The answer is essentially to set up tests outside of ordinary school sports. The biggest issue IMO is convincing the trans females to give it their all.
 

Hoosierhawkeye

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My other question for those who insist a legislative remedy is needed is this: are there not already organizations - IHSAA and NCAA come to mind - that are expressly tasked with ensuring fair and equitable competition? And aren’t those organizations infinitely closer and more informed about the sports and athletes they oversee?

Are we really to believe that members of the Iowa Legislature are better equipped to set the rules for competition and fairness than the actual on-the-ground organizations that exist to make those rules and are involved with sports on a day-to-day basis? Frankly, that assertion seems ludicrous.

Ideally I would agree with you but they have often given into political pressure and gone forward without strong testing to determine that there is no advantage.

A middling men's swimmer turning into the best "female" swimmer in the NCAA should give them pause but that has not happened.
 

onlyTheObvious

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Nobody complaining about girls transitioning to boys and competing.

I think we all know why.

Martina Navratilova is now a piece of crap by the trans crowd.
 
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gohawks50

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The answer is essentially to set up tests outside of ordinary school sports. The biggest issue IMO is convincing the trans females to give it their all.
Your second sentence makes it sound like you believe that trans females have a hidden agenda to dominate women's sports. That seems to be the attitude that is driving these laws. People believe their is some evil agenda for trans and gay world domination. I thought most people had moved beyond that, but everyday I'm being proven wrong.
 

torbee

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Ideally I would agree with you but they have often given into political pressure and gone forward without strong testing to determine that there is no advantage.

A middling men's swimmer turning into the best "female" swimmer in the NCAA should give them pause but that has not happened.
So your position is legislators are in better position than athletic organizations to set the rules of fair play.

I disagree wholeheartedly. And honestly, you don’t think POLITICIANS are even MORE susceptible to “giving in to political pressure?” I believe you have it exactly back-asswards, sir.
 

Hoosierhawkeye

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So your position is legislators are in better position than athletic organizations to set the rules of fair play.

I disagree wholeheartedly. And honestly, you don’t think POLITICIANS are even MORE susceptible to “giving in to political pressure?” I believe you have it exactly back-asswards, sir.

I'm not sure that the law is the right solution either for the record. But at the same time I find it safer to wait until you have good results than to go gung ho into letting trans females compete only to find out they got advantages.

The law can be repealed (Although I'm not sure I trust the GOP to do so even if evidence suggests it's not needed.) . . . you can't give back a girl the experience if winning a championship or getting a scholarship that she otherwise would have earned save for a one trans female.

Again being trans is a choice that they are making. And there are potential costs to those choices. Those potential costs should not be borne by people who didn't make that choice.
 
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torbee

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I'm not sure that the law is the right solution either for the record. But at the same time I find it safer to wait until you have good results than to go gung ho into letting trans females compete only to find out they got advantages.

The law can be repealed. . . you can't give back a girl the experience if winning a championship or getting a scholarship that she otherwise would have earned save for a one trans female.
My son missed his entire senior season of soccer because of Covid. Shit happens. It strains credibility to think anyone is missing out just because a couple trans athletes are allowed to compete. No one is “owed” a championship or a scholarship.
 

Hoosierhawkeye

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My son missed his entire senior season of soccer because of Covid. Shit happens. It strains credibility to think anyone is missing out just because a couple trans athletes are allowed to compete. No one is “owed” a championship or a scholarship.

You are if you earned it. That's like saying no one owes you money. . . Well no but if you went and did work for them they certainly do.

And unlike COVID this is something that isn't going to be borne by everyone.

Again you are suggesting carrying out an experiment that people who make a choice don't face the potential costs of that choice but instead the potential costs are borne by people who were not at all involved in that choice. I don't agree with that line of thinking.
 

Tfxchawk

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So your position is legislators are in better position than athletic organizations to set the rules of fair play.

I disagree wholeheartedly. And honestly, you don’t think POLITICIANS are even MORE susceptible to “giving in to political pressure?” I believe you have it exactly back-asswards, sir.
Yes. They are better positioned because that is how representative democracy works. Those sports organizations are appointed or hired positions and have demonstrated often that they will act however they like. Politicians set laws and those organizations are subject to them not the other way around.
 

Tfxchawk

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My son missed his entire senior season of soccer because of Covid. Shit happens. It strains credibility to think anyone is missing out just because a couple trans athletes are allowed to compete. No one is “owed” a championship or a scholarship.
Including those trans athletes. You mean then too right?
 
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Tfxchawk

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So your position is legislators are in better position than athletic organizations to set the rules of fair play.

I disagree wholeheartedly. And honestly, you don’t think POLITICIANS are even MORE susceptible to “giving in to political pressure?” I believe you have it exactly back-asswards, sir.
Politicians represent their interests and the views of their constituents. Those organizations don't.
 

Hoosierhawkeye

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Your second sentence makes it sound like you believe that trans females have a hidden agenda to dominate women's sports. That seems to be the attitude that is driving these laws. People believe their is some evil agenda for trans and gay world domination. I thought most people had moved beyond that, but everyday I'm being proven wrong.

I'm saying that trans females probably would tend towards wanting trans women in women's sports. And if that is the case those trans women realizing that this test would determine how that political question is decided would be less likely to give it their all knowing that if they dominate it would hurt their political goal.

I would say the same thing if you were surveying gun owners about their gun safety practices knowing that if poor safety practices were found in the survey it would affect gun laws.
 

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