Iowans are sharply divided on banning transgender girls from female sports, Iowa Poll finds

[artradley]

My son missed his entire senior season of soccer because of Covid. Shit happens. It strains credibility to think anyone is missing out just because a couple trans athletes are allowed to compete. No one is “owed” a championship or a scholarship.

Your attitude could be used to simply eliminate girls sports, entirely. Hey, life's not fair; we have a varsity team, and if you're not good enough that's the breaks.

In fact, we have girls teams (and freshman teams, and jv teams) to give kids who aren't good enough to be on the varsity team an opportunity to take part in a sport. You can say this law is mean-spirited and made for political gain, and you aren't wrong. But that does not mean it suddenly is "fair" for biological males to compete on a girls team.

You could also turn this around and tell a boy, who transitions to a girl, that she can still play, but on the boys team - if she's good enough. If not, well, life is not always fair. You get the gender of your choice, but you don't get to compete on the team of your choice.

 

[Tfxchawk]

So what were the polling questions? How was this issue framed to those in the survey?

 

[torbee]

Politicians represent their interests and the views of their constituents. Those organizations don't.

You honestly believe the organizations created to oversee sports don't represent the constituency of those who play sports better than legislators?

Absurd.

 

[torbee]

Your attitude could be used to simply eliminate girls sports, entirely. Hey, life's not fair; we have a varsity team, and if you're not good enough that's the breaks.

In fact, we have girls teams (and freshman teams, and jv teams) to give kids who aren't good enough to be on the varsity team an opportunity to take part in a sport. You can say this law is mean-spirited and made for political gain, and you aren't wrong. But that does not mean it suddenly is "fair" for biological males to compete on a girls team.

My argument was never about fairness. It was about need for legislative remedy. You are again creating a fictional scenario to try to defend that need. It doesn't exist. The number of trans athletes is so infinitesimally small that your feigned "worry" about all girls sports being eliminated looks like the hysterical strawman that it is.

 

[Tfxchawk]

You honestly believe the organizations created to oversee sports don't represent the constituency of those who play sports better than legislators?

Absurd.

Really? How well has the NCAA represented student athlete interests and what needed to be done about that by people in the legislative branch?

Those organizations are not who govern our society

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

Politicians represent their interests and the views of their constituents. Those organizations don't.

Meh I'm not sure the politicians are more representative than the organizations which is why I'm not sure a law like this is the best solution. Mostly because I don't think politicians are going to suddenly change their mind if the evidence says something different.

However for the time being there should at least be a pause until this matter could be fully studied for every sport.

If you ask me I think any sport in which height is a significant advantage is automatically out. You can take away my testosterone but that isn't going to change the fact that because of having those past male hormones I grew to be 6'1" Which is short in the NBA but slightly above average height in the WNBA.

 

[torbee]

Really? How well has the NCAA represented student athlete interests and what needed to be done about that by people in the legislative branch?

Those organizations are not who govern our society

No, they are the organizations that govern sports and competition. Which is the point.

 

[torbee]

If you ask me I think any sport in which height is a significant advantage is automatically out. You can take away my testosterone but that isn't going to change the fact that because of having those past male hormones I grew to be 6'1" Which is short in the NBA but slightly above average height in the WNBA.

Well in that case, it's time to ban anyone 6'10 or taller from playing basketball. They might take scholarships away from shorter people!!! It's not fair!!

 

[Tfxchawk]

No, they are the organizations that govern sports and competition. Which is the point.

And they are governed by legislation or government.

 

[Tfxchawk]

Well in that case, it's time to ban anyone 6'10 or taller from playing basketball. They might take scholarships away from shorter people!!! It's not fair!!

Funny how you just demonstrated the problem with affirmative action as a lefty. Did you intend to do that? Hilarious

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

My argument was never about fairness. It was about need for legislative remedy. You are again creating a fictional scenario to try to defend that need. It doesn't exist. The number of trans athletes is so infinitesimally small that your feigned "worry" about all girls sports being eliminated looks like the hysterical strawman that it is.

Again the number being small doesn't help the girls/women who lost out on championships and scholarships because of someone else's choice.

And how are we to guarantee that the number of trans people is going to stay small. I'm guessing the number of self reported gay people in the 70's and 80's was pretty small too. And while it's still very much in the minority I'm guessing it grew exponentially.

 

[torbee]

And they are governed by legislation or government.

I will make sure going forward to note that you oppose local control and prefer government mandates.

 

[torbee]

Again the number being small doesn't help the girls/women who lost out on championships and scholarships because of someone else's choice.

And how are we to guarantee that the number of trans people is going to stay small. I'm guessing the number of self reported gay people in the 70's and 80's was pretty small too. And while it's still very much in the minority I'm guessing it grew exponentially.

Now we're getting somewhere. You are finally admitting that your fear is actually the trans people "taking over."

Textbook. But at least you admit it.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

Well in that case, it's time to ban anyone 6'10 or taller from playing basketball. They might take scholarships away from shorter people!!! It's not fair!!

Not saying that. I am saying that my male puberty gave me a pretty big advantage that I could take advantage of if I were to suddenly decide I was a woman. An advantage that can't be taken away.

Not that I have the skill or athletic ability to even play in the WNBA. But someone who's younger, more athletic, and spent more time playing basketball might. A middling D3 male college player could transition and suddenly become a WNBA player.

 

[artradley]

My argument was never about fairness. It was about need for legislative remedy. You are again creating a fictional scenario to try to defend that need. It doesn't exist. The number of trans athletes is so infinitesimally small that your feigned "worry" about all girls sports being eliminated looks like the hysterical strawman that it is.

I'm not worried about girls sports being eliminated. I'm saying your "that's the breaks" attitude, carried to its logical conclusion, is that there is no need for girls sports. But I believe there is a need for girls sports, so your attitude is not sound.

 

[onlyTheObvious]

Would anything stop five boys playing girls volleyball in Iowa?

my guess is the poll numbers would change if that potential reality was explicitly explained to each person that voted.

 

[Huey Grey]

Not saying that. I am saying that my male puberty gave me a pretty big advantage that I could take advantage of if I were to suddenly decide I was a woman. An advantage that can't be taken away.

Not that I have the skill or athletic ability to even play in the WNBA. But someone who's younger, more athletic, and spent more time playing basketball might. A middling D3 male college player could transition and suddenly become a WNBA player.

No trans athletes have ever played in the WNBA.

 

[gohawks50]

You are if you earned it. That's like saying no one owes you money. . . Well no but if you went and did work for them they certainly do.

And unlike COVID this is something that isn't going to be borne by everyone.

Again you are suggesting carrying out an experiment that people who make a choice don't face the potential costs of that choice but instead the potential costs are borne by people who were not at all involved in that choice. I don't agree with that line of thinking.

Scholarships are given to athletes nationwide. Lets say for example there are 500 scholarships given out for Women's track and one goes to a transgender athlete that means 1 cis gender girl in the nation didn't receive a scholarship that they might otherwise have received. That cis gender girl can still walk on and compete at her chosen school, she might even earn a scholarship. This unfairness hardly seems like it should inspire a nationwide movement to stop transwomen from competing with cis gender women.

 

[Huey Grey]

Would anything stop five boys playing girls volleyball in Iowa?

Yes. Reality.

 

[torbee]

Would anything stop five boys playing girls volleyball in Iowa?

Yes. Common sense and them not wanting to.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

Now we're getting somewhere. You are finally admitting that your fear is actually the trans people "taking over."

Textbook. But at least you admit it.

No my point is that the number that you are talking about being "infinitesimally small" is likely to grow by quite a bit.

And yes I am concerned that if you get to a point where say 3% of the population is transgender that transgender females could be dominating women's and girl's sports. And at that point anyone saying "Hey maybe we should end this" because somehow half of every women's/girl's team where people that were born male" that person will be shunned as a "transphobe".

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

Yes. Common sense and them not wanting to.

The last part will not be a problem if transgenderism is normalized.

Stop using "there arn't that many of them" as a point because the more normalized this becomes the more there are going to be. Again there were not that many gay people in the 80's and 90's. But it became normalized and accepted and those numbers grew exponentially.

We're setting a precedent for the future where there could be 3 to 5 percent of the population is transgender.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

Scholarships are given to athletes nationwide. Lets say for example there are 500 scholarships given out for Women's track and one goes to a transgender athlete that means 1 cis gender girl in the nation didn't receive a scholarship that they might otherwise have received. That cis gender girl can still walk on and compete at her chosen school, she might even earn a scholarship. This unfairness hardly seems like it should inspire a nationwide movement to stop transwomen from competing with cis gender women.

But that unfairness is being born by a person who had nothing to do with the choice. It's not being born by the one person who made that choice.

And again as this becomes more normalized the numbers are likely to only grow.

 

[Huey Grey]

No my point is that the number that you are talking about being "infinitesimally small" is likely to grow by quite a bit.

And yes I am concerned that if you get to a point where say 3% of the population is transgender that transgender females could be dominating women's and girl's sports. And at that point anyone saying "Hey maybe we should end this" because somehow half of every women's/girl's team where people that were born male" that person will be shunned as a "transphobe".

There is not one shred of evidence it is likely to grow. The fact that all is this is based on one swimmer across the entire country pretty much proves this.

 

[gohawks50]

But that unfairness is being born by a person who had nothing to do with the choice. It's not being born by the one person who made that choice.

And again as this becomes more normalized the numbers are likely to only grow.

Then NCAA has allowed transgender athletes to compete since 2011. According to your theory transgender women should be dominating in the WNBA and NWSL by now. Where are they?

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

There is not one shred of evidence it is likely to grow. The fact that all is this is based on one swimmer across the entire country pretty much proves this.

There have been others.

And the evidence it's likely to grow can be seen in how other things have become normalized in our country and those grew.

Not that many divorces in the 50's. Not that many gay people in the 80's. Not that many transgenders in the 2020's.

 

[torbee]

Then NCAA has allowed transgender athletes to compete since 2011. According to your theory transgender women should be dominating in the WNBA and NWSL by now. Where are they?

It's a "solution" in search of a problem that doesn't exist and is being ginned up for no other reason than to notch a "win" in the culture wars. Hoosier and Art et al know this deep down, but are loathe to admit it, so they must keep creating fictional scenarios, hypotheticals and straw man arguments as the real world will not provide any evidence for the need for legislative relief.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

Then NCAA has allowed transgender athletes to compete since 2011. According to your theory transgender women should be dominating in the WNBA and NWSL by now. Where are they?

It's extremely early. A lot of gay people stayed in the closet well into the 2010's.

 

[torbee]

There have been others.

And the evidence it's likely to grow can be seen in how other things have become normalized in our country and those grew.

Not that many divorces in the 50's. Not that many gay people in the 80's. Not that many transgenders in the 2020's.

So you are upset legislation has not been passed previously to, what, ban divorces? Make it illegal to be gay?

 

[torbee]

It's extremely early. A lot of gay people stayed in the closet well into the 2010's.

And this angers you? You want them back in the closet where they belong?

 

[Huey Grey]

There have been others.

And the evidence it's likely to grow can be seen in how other things have become normalized in our country and those grew.

Not that many divorces in the 50's. Not that many gay people in the 80's. Not that many transgenders in the 2020's.

What others? The Connecticut track girls? That was years ago and they earned zero athletic scholarships or college records.

 

[onlyTheObvious]

Yes. Reality.

So nothing legally or scientific?

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

So you are upset legislation has not been passed previously to, what, ban divorces? Make it illegal to be gay?

No I'm pointing out that these things being normalized is only going to increase their number.

I'm not worried about gay people. They seem to pose no significant threat to the community, other people's goals, or other people's freedoms. The wedding cake scenario should easily be solved by requiring any custom work that includes recognizable words or symbols to be up to the business owner to turn down on the basis of free speech but any work that doesn't include that to be available to any paying customer.

I am on record that divorce should have never been normalized and should be harder to get and I still believe that to be true. It has done a great deal of harm to the community and to people's mental health.

All of the effort spent trying to keep marriage as one between men and women only should have been expended on making marriage a life long commitment which one should not break without extremely strong reasons.

 

[torbee]

No I'm pointing out that these things being normalized is only going to increase their number.

I'm not worried about gay people. They seem to pose no significant threat to the community, other people's goals, or other people's freedoms.

I am on record that divorce should have never been normalized and should be harder to get and I still believe that to be true. It has done a great deal of harm to the community and to people's mental health.

All of the effort spent trying to keep marriage as one between men and women only should have been expended on making marriage a life long commitment which one should not break without extremely strong reasons.

So if you say you are just "pointing out" that these things are being normalized and you hold no animus toward that, why then do you feel there is a need to "fix" the issue through legislation?

Yes, being gay is more normalized in 2022 than it was in 1992. So what?

 

[artradley]

It's a "solution" in search of a problem that doesn't exist and is being ginned up for no other reason than to notch a "win" in the culture wars. Hoosier and Art et al know this deep down, but are loathe to admit it, so they must keep creating fictional scenarios, hypotheticals and straw man arguments as the real world will not provide any evidence for the need for legislative relief.

Since I am not fighting this culture war, you are clearly incorrect about me. And I have agreed that the motivations of these politicians is to take advantage of bigotry. So, again, you are wrong about me.

What you won't admit is that there is a pretty simple and compelling logic to the notion that biological males should not compete in girl's athletics. And the irony is that you won't admit it because you, yourself, are too invested in the culture war.

 

[torbee]

What you won't admit is that there is a pretty simple and compelling logic to the notion that biological males should not compete in girl's athletics.

No, I agree 100% with that statement and that is the position I hold as well.

I just do not believe it is a problem in need of legislative solution. The fact it is a culture war wedge issue is, to me, quite stupid.

In other words, yeah, it's not "fair" a handful of former dudes are competing now as trans women, because in all likelihood, they have a small advantage. Why can't I hold that position while also thinking it's asinine to waste time drafting legislation to "fix" it?

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

So if you say you are just "pointing out" that these things are being normalized and you hold no animus toward that, why then do you feel there is a need to "fix" the issue through legislation?

Yes, being gay is more normalized in 2022 than it was in 1992. So what?

Again I don't particularly like the legislative solution, but I do think that the whole world should pump the breaks on this until we have stronger data as to advantages and disadvantages.

Not go all in and let them do it and wait to see if they have any actual advantages.

 

[RollingBallofButcherKnives]

You really are missing the point here, even though I held your hand through it in my last post.

Not missing it, just denying/deflecting..🙄

 

[RollingBallofButcherKnives]

When I was a kid, I’d often bitch about things being “unfair” and without fail, mom or dad would say “guess what kid? LIFE isn’t fair.” And sure enough, I came to see that mom and dad were right as usual.

Is it the role of a legislature to create laws for every single instance in life when something isn’t fair, regardless of the scale of the problem (which in the case of females losing scholarships to trans athletes appears to be extremely rare if not basically non-existent?)

I personally don’t think it’s fair for trans athletes to compete against non-trans athletes due to their natural (though reduced through hormone therapy) strength and size advantages. But it just does not strike me as an issue large enough or pervasive enough to require a legislative fix. I could rattle off at least 10 more pressing “fairness” issues in 5 minutes that are more egregious and affect more people and have not been addressed for decades, that would deserve legislative action before this one.

Then why is everyone on here making a big deal of it one way or the other?

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

No, I agree 100% with that statement and that is the position I hold as well.

I just do not believe it is a problem in need of legislative solution. The fact it is a culture war wedge issue is, to me, quite stupid.

In other words, yeah, it's not "fair" a handful of former dudes are competing now as trans women, because in all likelihood, they have a small advantage. Why can't I hold that position while also thinking it's asinine to waste time drafting legislation to "fix" it?

I mostly agree with you. I don't think it's so much asinine to draft the legislation so much as I don't like the scenario because I am confident with it being a culture war wedge issue that such a law will not be repealed if new data says there are no advantages. It would take a court order to change that law because that's the only way anything is resolved these days. Gay marriage wasn't won via legislation it was won via court order.

Ideally each athletic organization would wait for the data to start letting trans women compete. But out of fear of being labeled "trans phobic" they have gone forward with no data.

I mean overall the problem with the right is they don't ever want to change anything even when it's extremely clear change is needed but the problem with the left is that they rush straight into change without really considering if it's a good idea or not.