The whole point of putting restraints on calls is because officials are not going to grow a pair. In essence it is forcing them to have a pair whether they like it or not. I am assuming that is why they went to the counts because officials would not call it stalling without counts.
Ironside comments on stalling
- Thread starter augiehawk
- Start date
As I glanced over the various posts which include rule book explanations of stalling as writen, it is quite obvious why so many fans and wannabe fans would be going crazy. stalling is quite well discribed and adressed in the rule book privious to the many recent tweaks. WHY IS IT SO HARD TO ENFORCE??? It is as many have suggested up to the people in stripes to give our sports the the "kick start" that is needed. Until the rule is enforced wrestling will suffer plain and simple.
The tweaks that have come into being have done little more than lead to confusion. In addition to the rediculous count to five to determine if an ankle rider is stalling, the confusion on fleeing the mat makes it literally imposible to defend an attack as one would do in the center of the mat. And talk about confusion..... one of the top officials in the country and one who participated with his father in a video to explain the rule blows it in the Minny/PSU dual.
This post was edited on 3/9 9:55 PM by BDB57
The tweaks that have come into being have done little more than lead to confusion. In addition to the rediculous count to five to determine if an ankle rider is stalling, the confusion on fleeing the mat makes it literally imposible to defend an attack as one would do in the center of the mat. And talk about confusion..... one of the top officials in the country and one who participated with his father in a video to explain the rule blows it in the Minny/PSU dual.
This post was edited on 3/9 9:55 PM by BDB57
Totally agree and there's no way our sport is going to grow and grab casual fans with the product we're putting on the mat now. I'm as big as a fan as there is and it's sometimes painful for me to watch. I feel like they should just start the matches in overtime and save us all the hand fighting, boundary dancing, and fleeing out of bounds. It really is comical sometimes, the only thing I wish I could figure out is if I should be blaming the wrestlers or the officials.
As far as rules, we have to keep in consideration that they need to be "clean" and "clear cut"...easy for the new or casual fan to understand.
One things for sure, it really would be an easy fix if officials would just call the stuff the way it needed to be called. Hell I'd love officials to be overzealous with the stall calls and "fleeing/avoiding" calls than the way it's being called now. Everyone of them just swallows the whistle.
I wonder how many stalling points were actually called this weekend...not warnings but stalling points actually awarded.
Agree with your overall premise, but I thought a couple of other matches were fairly entertaining, though not high scoring. There was quite a bit of good action at 133 with Dardanes and Taylor, and lo and behold, Taylor actually TRIED to score on a desperation move with less than 10 seconds left while TRAILING! Who'd have ever thunk that was something you could do! LOL!
I thought 165 and 174 were fairly entertaining matches as well.
At 149, when Tsirtsis was on top, he didn't even bother to try and move off of Sorensen's back when he broke him down. He just wanted whatever seconds of riding time he could get away with while completely laying directly on top of him. He didn't care in the least. HWT.'s don't even bother with that crap very often. Ridiculous. And I don't like it any better when Iowa guys do similar things (I don't think I've seen any of our guys this year quite as bad as what Tsirtsis was doing however). Zero attempt to get off to the side, at least fake it for God's sake.
MVP, it is amazing to think back on the season and reflect on how many times I witnessed the things listed above. And there was absolutely no thought by the refs to call any of it. The wrestler would have been shocked to get many of these called on him at this point, because the refs have taught them they don't need to worry about it.
It's just sad.
That is the crazy thing - if us as wrestling fans are complaining about the product, how do we expect a casual fan to get interested. I used to try to explain to people about why they lock up, they are fighting for position, to feel an opening, etc.. Now I want to just tell them they are just trying not to get taken down. When you watch matches and a guy is leading by 1 with 30 or 40 seconds, you almost now it is over. One guy runs around, gets 1 stall call, but will never get a 2nd one to tie it up.
If you can't call 2 stall calls when a guy runs around the mat for 30 or 40 seconds, I don't know how we expect refs to call it at other times. I agree that if it is a scoreless 1st period, 3 full minutes of wrestling, at the least they should give a stall call to the least aggressive guy.
If you can't call 2 stall calls when a guy runs around the mat for 30 or 40 seconds, I don't know how we expect refs to call it at other times. I agree that if it is a scoreless 1st period, 3 full minutes of wrestling, at the least they should give a stall call to the least aggressive guy.
FIFY
But that would only change how the first 3 minutes are wrestled. Officials still need to promote activity the rest of the way. Laying on the opponent like Tsirtsis did or grabbing the mat to get out of bounds like Evans did should be penalized immediately.
D1 Coaches need to better understand the situation as it now stands.
The officials are apparently paralyzed by fear. The ADs need to understand fans want action above all else and figure out a system that allows the officials to make judgement calls without the fear that these relatively famous coaches will have them shelved. The ADs can set up a system where coaches have little influence as far as who is officiating while still getting the best officials on the mat come tourny time. This is needed desperately.
If you can get an atmosphere where officials are actively about promoting action first, then I think it goes along way in helping the end product on the mat which is what the sport and the ADs want/need. If an official is worried about his job, based on the judgement calls he makes, this is a recipe for what we currently see on the mat much of the time--nothing.
Get a set, CALL the STALL.
The whole sport is being suffocated by stalling and the lack of calling it what it is-- STALLING-- is obviously killing the sport.
Conspiracy alert:
Do the "powers that be" want folk style wrestling dead? What better way to kill it than slowly squeeze the life from the sport from the top down. If D1 and the rest of college wrestling goes freestyle doesn't high school wrestling shortly follow?
The whole stalling thing has gotten progressively worse with no apparent concern as it relates to improving the product on the mat at the D1 level since the Olympic wrestling threats.
Food for thought.
Conspiracy alert:
Do the "powers that be" want folk style wrestling dead? What better way to kill it than slowly squeeze the life from the sport from the top down. If D1 and the rest of college wrestling goes freestyle doesn't high school wrestling shortly follow?
The whole stalling thing has gotten progressively worse with no apparent concern as it relates to improving the product on the mat at the D1 level since the Olympic wrestling threats.
Food for thought.
How about the match can't end until there is at least a 3 point difference in score? (Didn't there used to be a similar rule in Freestyle?)
I don't think I've ever seen Waters apply the legs while standing. I agree that he should be required to return his opponent to the mat, and he usually does within 5 seconds. Regarding Gilman, I'm pretty sure Waters' legs were in every time before he stood up.
This post was edited on 3/10 12:42 PM by XiXiTiger
A friend out of Chicago ref's D1 and said coaches have a lot of input on ref assignments.
If you make a tough call against certain coaches it can eliminate you from getting good matches to ref.
Strangely, not making a call seems not to go against you. IF this has any truth to it, then it goes a ways to explain part of the problem.
Most states high school level ref's assign independent of popularity among coaches. A few states have a process where if a coach has a strong complaint against a ref, that ref is evaluated via a training official watching a couple of duals or video review if available and either dismiss the concerns or provide training. Not perfect by any stretch but I have seen it help. Other states allow coaches a "black-ball" list where they can request a ref not be assigned to their home duals. This gives the coaches a feeling of input as most states are stretched to having enough refs but at least it is communication.
While I like my friend, I don't have enough insight to know if what he says happens in D1 does.
As stated, coaches and athletes have a large role in this in the guise of strategy. Getting ahead and use a series of half/fake shots, blocking tie-ups or just plain back peddle until the warning. Play the edge, blanket rides or "position fight" on the bottom are also common.
I don't know why people, the NCAA and National High School committees are so against the push out. It does add another way to score that has no subjectivity, forces wrestlers to not play the edge and could cure a large part of the problem. Yes, a new problem of top guys just pushing the bottom guy out but thems the breaks. A match where a guy simply tries to push his opponent out of bounds 4 times and wins 4-1 or 4-2 is worlds better than the 2-1 win with riding time.
If you make a tough call against certain coaches it can eliminate you from getting good matches to ref.
Strangely, not making a call seems not to go against you. IF this has any truth to it, then it goes a ways to explain part of the problem.
Most states high school level ref's assign independent of popularity among coaches. A few states have a process where if a coach has a strong complaint against a ref, that ref is evaluated via a training official watching a couple of duals or video review if available and either dismiss the concerns or provide training. Not perfect by any stretch but I have seen it help. Other states allow coaches a "black-ball" list where they can request a ref not be assigned to their home duals. This gives the coaches a feeling of input as most states are stretched to having enough refs but at least it is communication.
While I like my friend, I don't have enough insight to know if what he says happens in D1 does.
As stated, coaches and athletes have a large role in this in the guise of strategy. Getting ahead and use a series of half/fake shots, blocking tie-ups or just plain back peddle until the warning. Play the edge, blanket rides or "position fight" on the bottom are also common.
I don't know why people, the NCAA and National High School committees are so against the push out. It does add another way to score that has no subjectivity, forces wrestlers to not play the edge and could cure a large part of the problem. Yes, a new problem of top guys just pushing the bottom guy out but thems the breaks. A match where a guy simply tries to push his opponent out of bounds 4 times and wins 4-1 or 4-2 is worlds better than the 2-1 win with riding time.
Well the 5 count on the ankle rule also states that if the wrestler lets go at the count of 4 and then goes right back to it it is stalling so again the refs don't have a pair to call it.
Potentially a valid concern...easy solution though...award no points on a push out when the wrestlers start from the top/bottom(referee's) position, only when both wrestlers are neutral.
The current boring state of D1 wrestling reminds me of when years ago North Carolina, and others, used the "four corners", ahem, offense, to stall out the clock in a basketball game. It was boring and the fans didn't like it...boom, then the shot clock was born. BB games were turning into boring, difficult to officiate slam fests in the paint...bam, a three point line is created and naturally teams and players spaced themselves out to cover the deep shot, etc.
Wrestling needs to learn from things like this in other sporting contests and implement new rules so the wrestling version of the "four corners" offense does not kill this sport at the D1 level.
I have steadfastly preferred that rule changes be made to let the wrestlers sort things out between each other v. relying on refs to call stalling, which I don't think is going to happen. Then I read in this thread that there may be some incentive on refs to play it safe and not make potentially controversial calls so as not to be skipped over for future assignments and now I am even more persuaded that the refs are not going to solve this problem. Rule changes, rule changes, rule changes!
Fwiw, I was on a Minnesota board and they were basically accusing Iowa of the same stalling tactics that we complain about, saying how pushing people out is not wrestling, and that our style is boring to watch...........
Ohio State and Penn State fans agreed with those sentiments.
What say you, knowledgeable Hawkeye wrestling fans?
Ohio State and Penn State fans agreed with those sentiments.
What say you, knowledgeable Hawkeye wrestling fans?
It seems to me that say wrestling A is pushing can't wrestling B push back or hold his ground or is it easier to let him push you and use much strength to avoid it?
If a wrestler keeps backing up to the ob line dam right just shove hs butt all the way out.
As for when bottom man stands up and guy just runs or pushes him ob the rule is there it is stalling on the top again no balls by the ref to call it.
Maybe only answer is make it like MMA everything goes let the wrestlers decide it
I like folk style better than freestyle. I don't understand why coaches and officials don't get together during the college wrestling off season and discuss the rules. Maybe they do. I'm new here but I have followed the HR and find it to be the place I want to get in trouble on in regards to the subject of wrestling. I would like to know, if possible, what does Mike Allen do?
For these other programs to pretend it's mutually exclusive to Iowa wrestling is laughable at best. It's a nation wide epidemic.
Good handfighting and the push-pull, heavy on the head is the Iowa style and can be boring at times, but while we're wrestling that style, what are our opponents doing?! It sure as hell isn't being offensive or taking risk. So my question is... Would you rather see a guy fighting hands and moving forward or see a guy avoiding tying up and circling away?
For the love of Dan Gable, it's just hilarious that people want to put this on Iowa.
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Gobblin, I definitely agree with you here that it is a national problem, and as much as I hate to say it, Iowa has some guys that are becoming well versed in this. I think mainly because the way matches are called.
I see some on here wanting the push out and getting rid of riding time. I don't have a problem with getting rid of riding time but if the first guy chooses down and gets out, then in the third period starts on top even with out the benefit of getting a riding time point, why wouldn't you still not try and ride them out with the way matches are called know. Instead of winning 2-0 now you would win 1-0. Even if the bottom guy does get out you are still tied and go to OT. and who ever can get out there is going to win. Still not solving the problem of inactivity while in the top position.
Guess my point is I think you need a point for pushing out while either in neutral or riding, and you most definitely have to start calling stalling on the top guy if he isn't getting of to the side, working for a pinning combination. You can get rid of the riding point but I can still see stalling in the top position if they don't start calling it like it was in the 80's and 90's when wrestling was a lot more entertaining. and could really get you excited with all the action.
Big 10, Mac and Big 12 Coordinator of Officials--hires and oversees the officials for those conferences.
Here it is from the man himself from an interview with the Predicament: "...I came back as the coordinator of officials for the Big 10, the Big 12 and the MAC conference. I now hire all the officials, train and evaluate them for those conferences.
Some of the things I watch for include how the officials position themselves during a match. It is important to see how they handle themselves with the wrestlers and coaches both on and off the mat. They all know the rules but can they apply them during competition. That is what makes the difference."
Long time reader but new to the board so go easy on me. I've been a fan of our great sport since I was a kid growing up in a wrestling family and I agree that something needs done to improve it or we will generate no new fans and it will kill wrestling. I agree with a lot of what has been said on here for change but I have a multi-part question. Do the officials get graded on their performance, if they do by who, and how are they held accountable for not doing their jobs right? If I failed to accuratley do my job 50% of the time I would be unemployed.
As for the lack of interest in officiating at the college level I find that hard to believe but maybe they are not actively looking either. I happen to know of a couple HS officials that would be better at calling stalling and would not hesitate to call it either. Maybe they never wanted to be in the spotlight or even pursued it but is there a way to gain interest in that area and get rid of the BS we have going on now? Maybe actively go to state tournaments or other Nationals and approach the best of the best for the big time?
Anyway hopefully I can meet some of you guys down in St. Louis next week after reading your commentary and PBP all year long, all of it was greatly appreciated and I just wish it wasn't ending soon!
As for the lack of interest in officiating at the college level I find that hard to believe but maybe they are not actively looking either. I happen to know of a couple HS officials that would be better at calling stalling and would not hesitate to call it either. Maybe they never wanted to be in the spotlight or even pursued it but is there a way to gain interest in that area and get rid of the BS we have going on now? Maybe actively go to state tournaments or other Nationals and approach the best of the best for the big time?
Anyway hopefully I can meet some of you guys down in St. Louis next week after reading your commentary and PBP all year long, all of it was greatly appreciated and I just wish it wasn't ending soon!
LOL I remember this thread.
I think its funny right now that everyone seems to forget how bad NATO stalled out in his first win ever over Gilman. Not really us hawk fans but I dont care if he is defending champ. NATO is what 1-4 all time vs Gilman and this was his win. Gilman is a much better wrestler at this time than a year ago. NATO's glory ride is about to end soon and quite frankly he owes Moisey unlimited Xmas cards for taking care of a guy that owned him in STL.
That Moisey pin is the best thing that ever happend to Thomas. 2nd best was the confidence he learned in that Dance comeback. Cant wait.
I think its funny right now that everyone seems to forget how bad NATO stalled out in his first win ever over Gilman. Not really us hawk fans but I dont care if he is defending champ. NATO is what 1-4 all time vs Gilman and this was his win. Gilman is a much better wrestler at this time than a year ago. NATO's glory ride is about to end soon and quite frankly he owes Moisey unlimited Xmas cards for taking care of a guy that owned him in STL.
That Moisey pin is the best thing that ever happend to Thomas. 2nd best was the confidence he learned in that Dance comeback. Cant wait.
Can't wait for the rematch with NATO. I read in one of the threads he was something like 9-1 against NATO going into that match. Could be off, but he obviously had his # before the end of last year.
This has nothing to do with stalling but, as many times the Indiana wrestler slapped Gilman in the face and head and the ref did nothing. If the ref finally did something then I missed it because I was busy beating the crap out of my foot stool.
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