You are denying that something did happen.
Jim Jordan (Redux Joe Paterno, Dennis Hastert, Larry Nassar)
- Thread starter burk11
- Start date
It appears that a lot of creepers manage to molest kids for longer than one would think possible.
Are you talking about 18-22 year old college students as kids or are you moving the goalposts, because this thread is about college aged young people.
Sandusky was molesting children on the PSU campus and was observed molesting a child in the university shower by an assistant college coach.
Ummm, no, not denying that something happened, and I said exactly that. I am skeptical though that all of the current people now reporting an issue are indeed telling the truth.
Do you believe EVERYONE is telling the truth? If so, how do you square that with the fact that this is now being brought out 20-30+ years later...conveniently, 13 years after the abuser died?
OK...But were we not talking about OSU and college students? None of my commentary has been in relation to Sandusky/PSU specifically.
No, no it is not. It is someone that is concerned that allegations can be made and someone can be "taken down" in the media and in the realm of public opinion with no actual facts or proof.
Not saying this didn't happen. What I think is that these wrestlers let this happen..I know if was me in 1958-1962 if it happen to me would go to head coach and then tell him I'm calling the police. Also it seems weird to me that these same wrestlers claim it was well know all over the campus. Now you would think some one would have step up on this. So if they want compensation now should be able to find someone that was there and knows about this and not maybe even a wrestler since they say everyone talked about it. Don't know but looks to me like I smell a rat in this whole mess.
Link to Story that Just broke:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/spor...are-drop-your-pants/769739002/?csp=chromepush
I am thinking Jim Jordan should have asked questions and dug more and asked simply, "what do you guys mean by that? Are you serious or just joking around."
It appears Jordan thought it was just wrestlers joking around where he failed to connect the dots.
An excerpt:
“Did he make a mistake and not put it together?” Alf said of Jordan in a follow-up interview on Monday. “That could be the situation here. … Things are out and I want to make sure the true story is being told, whether that is helpful to the other athletes or defending Jimmy or not. Maybe I’m not helping Jimmy out, but I’m not going to lie. I’m going to tell the truth. I’m not going to lie for anybody.”
https://www.usatoday.com/story/spor...are-drop-your-pants/769739002/?csp=chromepush
I am thinking Jim Jordan should have asked questions and dug more and asked simply, "what do you guys mean by that? Are you serious or just joking around."
It appears Jordan thought it was just wrestlers joking around where he failed to connect the dots.
An excerpt:
“Did he make a mistake and not put it together?” Alf said of Jordan in a follow-up interview on Monday. “That could be the situation here. … Things are out and I want to make sure the true story is being told, whether that is helpful to the other athletes or defending Jimmy or not. Maybe I’m not helping Jimmy out, but I’m not going to lie. I’m going to tell the truth. I’m not going to lie for anybody.”
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Three examples? Lucky you that you didn't work for The Weinstein Company, Fox News, or Uber. Private companies also are capable of toxic sex/harassment for years.
When private companies go rogue, it's usually financial fraud or more kindly, white collar crime.
To be fair most universities and most private companies avoid this crap.
And this just broke on The Hill:
"In a phone interview on Monday, former Ohio State University head wrestling coach Russ Hellickson vehemently denied that he or Jordan had ever seen or been told that Dr. Richard Strauss was molesting or sexually assaulting OSU wrestlers during the 1980s and '90s.
"I am frankly pissed off at what they are doing to Jim Jordan. This is hysteria and politics running the narrative," Hellickson told The Hill in a phone interview. Jordan "gave his heart and soul to the personal development of these athletes. If they are attacking him, why aren't they attacking the 30 or 40 other coaches at OSU?"
"A whole lot of people were in the dark here. Nobody recognized this," Hellickson added. "Jim Jordan didn't know anything. I didn't know anything, and I don't think any of the other coaches knew anything."
Moments later, Hellickson and five other former OSU coaches issued a joint statement defending Jordan and saying that they would have "spoken up" had athletes reported specific cases of sexual abuse to them.
"What has been said about Jim Jordan is absolutely wrong. We all worked on the wrestling coaching staff during Jim's tenure at The Ohio State University. None of us saw or heard of abuse of OSU wrestlers," the half dozen coaches said in a joint statement. "The well-being of student-athletes was all of our concern. If we had heard of any abuse, we would have spoken up."
The six OSU coaches are Hellickson and five former assistant coaches: Dave Ruckman, Rex Holman, Ken Chertow, Myron Kharchilava and Kenny Ramsey Jr.
So now we have to choose between six Ohio State coaches or seven Ohio State wrestlers. Somebody's not telling the truth. Either way we've got some lying Buckeyes!
Perception is reality. My ankle/knee hurts and my doctor starts checking/looking at my penis. "Stop you sexual pervert" you say. I WAS ABUSED!!!! Go o facebook/Twitter. Tell the world what a pervert that guy is.
https://www.aafp.org/afp/2003/0701/p83.html
"Gonococcal arthritis is the most common type of nontraumatic acute mono-arthritis in young, sexually active persons in the United States.
that means gonnorhea. "the clap", the drip, a Sexually transmitted disease.
I loathe the younger generations judgmental hubris and sense of entitlement. Facebook has falsely convinced many that their opinion matters on topics that they have no education/training. Perception is reality -- especially for those with no training. This may not be what happened but I am sure it played a role.
https://www.aafp.org/afp/2003/0701/p83.html
"Gonococcal arthritis is the most common type of nontraumatic acute mono-arthritis in young, sexually active persons in the United States.
that means gonnorhea. "the clap", the drip, a Sexually transmitted disease.
I loathe the younger generations judgmental hubris and sense of entitlement. Facebook has falsely convinced many that their opinion matters on topics that they have no education/training. Perception is reality -- especially for those with no training. This may not be what happened but I am sure it played a role.
No, not during that era and not usually today. It is diagnosed by putting a q-tip in the penile urethra and taking a culture and sensitivity to antibiotics is tested-- 48 hours typically. initial stream urinalysis can be used sometimes to look for the genetic material of the bacteria if the lab test is available but it is less reliable and culture will need to be done if suspected.
Lab tests are ordered AFTER physical examination. Physical exam is done less today for the reasons on this thread. It is done more often when lab options are less available (70s 80s and 90s). Red irritated urethra meatus (opening) with purulent (pus) discharge is a common sign.
Waiting for lab work results can mean loss of joint or even death. (10% mortality for septic arthritis). Any good doctor would know the 70s and 80s college sexual activity and high incidence of STD and check genitalia for a single painful swollen joint. Kids lie to their doctors and parents about their sexual activity. Creepy? Not if you are a doctor.
Fingering the vaginas of little girls for a muscle sprain is not what I am talking about. Looking at a grown mans genitalia is a part of a physical exam and failure to do so could be dangerous in some instances.
I dont know what happened. I really dont have an opinion about it. I just get annoyed listening to knuckeheads second guess a trained professional.
But hey, everyone else has an opinion---- lets go to facebook/twitter/media and get the real truth!!! NOT.
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So when the doctor was spending hrs at a time (allegedly) showering with the young athletes, what was he examining or looking for?
Make it 8 tOSU wrestlers:
<<
Another Ohio State University wrestler has accused Rep. Jim Jordan (R-OH) of knowing about alleged sexual abuse by the team’s doctor and told CNN that Jordan “snickered” when the athlete told him about an incident with Dr. Richard Strauss.
The latest wrestler to come forward, who spoke on condition of anonymity, told CNN that Jordan was a “phony” for denying that he knew about the alleged abuse when he was an assistant coach for the wrestling team.
“I remember coming up and saying, ‘Strauss held my balls longer than normal.’ He just snickered,” the wrestler said.
The former athlete said he remembered approaching Jordan and a group of wrestlers and saying “something to the effect of ‘his hands are cold as shit; he checked out every hair on my ball,’” the wrestler told CNN, adding that Jordan walked away and said, “I have nothing to do with this.”
The athlete who spoke with CNN — who also voted for Jordan when he first ran for office — is the eighth former wrestler to come forward alleging that Jordan was aware of Strauss’ abuse. Jordan has denied all the allegations and has called the scandal a conveniently timed political attack.
“He’s sitting here and directly lying,” the wrestler said, adding that he supports fellow OSU wrestler Mike DiSabato, who has been public about his assertions of abuse and Jordan’s knowledge of the incidents.
A former White House ethics chief has submitted a request to the Office of Congressional Ethics to probe Jordan’s knowledge of the alleged abuse.>>
Thank you, Wendy. This is the reality that so many on this forum either fail--or refuse--to see. Victims go through hell. They are threatened by the perpetrator (as was a member of my family), they face shame, and sometimes disbelief when they tell their stories. Our culture is practically wired to protect perpetrators, especially in sexual assault cases, and especially when the victims are women. But, male victims incur a unique dose of shame because, well, they are supposed to be "men." This stupid stereotype is being promoted by some of you posters, but I beg you to open your eyes as to how you are merely adding to our culture's continued granting of social freedom to sexual predators.
My family member was victimized by a person who was significantly older and stronger. If anyone thinks there was a "wus" factor here (what a sick sexism that is!) needs to grow up and learn something about the dynamics of power and human sexuality. Some folks are going to need to rid themselves of this disgusting attitude that all victims need to do is fight for their protection. For God's sake, our very civilization is built on the idea that vulnerable people need advocates. And we sure as hell need to quit making wrestlers into supermen.
My friend, in a word, "YES." I beg you to read some of the voluminous literature from psychologists and counselors on this matter. Many, if not most, victims hide their trauma, stuff it down deep inside, for fear that they will be diminished beyond their already humiliating situation. I have done some counseling. I have a family member who was abused as a child, and did not come forward till over 10 years later. This family member has actually found some personal therapy in doing informal counseling with several friends who have "come out" to reveal their own experiences of disturbing sexual violations, typically years in the past. So, the "delay" is not just typical, it is practically universal.
People need to understand that victims go through incredible fear--fear of it happening again, fear of retribution by the perpetrator, fear of scorn from those entrusted with their stories, fear of not being taken seriously, and even a fear that somehow they "brought this on themselves." That's heavy stuff. I just don't get why our society is not more sophisticated about this. We are way overdue for this "me too" movement. Red state and blue state folks are both going to have to face the music. Justice respects no political party.
I have truly been disgusted by some of the comments in this thread.
The idea that the allegations were made to hinder a persons political career is bizarre, imo. Especially the posters who claim it has to be a political hit job due to the timing of the accusations.
“They didn’t bring this up when Jordan ran for election OR re-election, but now that he’s being considered for Speaker of the House it’s been made an issue so it must be false.” What a pile of shit for logic.
News flash: Victims of sexual abuse have been coming forward in the last couple years of years. And the more who come forward, the more comfortable others will become with sharing their stories.
Appreciate the reply...but I should have been more specific. What I am asking is not whether or not it is common for people that have been abused to repress/hide/etc their abuse, I understand that such a thing is common.
I am asking if it is common, in any given establishment, that dozens and dozens, even hundreds, of people are abused in some form over years and years, even decades, and that goes unchecked. I suspect there is abuse in some limited form at many places, but it stretches my imagination to think that within a given organization that it is really widespread, goes on for years and years and no one does anything substantial about it.
Just curious - I've seen it mentioned that this doctor had inappropriate dealings with athletes from 14 other teams at tOSU.
Does anyone know which sports? The respective coaches at the time? Names of athletes that have come forward?
It would be a pretty big story if it involved tOSU football, no? Or was it a story and I missed it?
Does anyone know which sports? The respective coaches at the time? Names of athletes that have come forward?
It would be a pretty big story if it involved tOSU football, no? Or was it a story and I missed it?
I repeat myself for those who have trouble reading (allegedly):
"I dont know what happened. I really dont have an opinion about it."
I was referencing the complains about a patient that had a supposed "sprained ankle" and had to "drop his shorts".
I'm bet it was reported numerous times but we're not hearing about that yet because it might move the spotlight away from Jordan.
Back in the day, when a guy was being a pervert, he was being a pervert. He was a sicko and people thought he was weird. Now the same actions are being called abuse and rape.
I can believe the coaches reported it and I can believe they did not report it. I can believe the administration shoved it under a rug also. The reason is because nothing came of this stuff. People were not going to take it to court and press charges so people lived with it. The embarrassment was not worth it to a lot of people in those days. There was no big monetary payout to be had. Offer people a few hundred thousand or million dollars and they are much more willing to deal with the shame and embarrassment of the situation.
The times are different now and the guy would get canned right away if the administrators wanted to. Applying todays reporting standards to the ones in place years ago are not fair to anyone involved. Just like it is not fair to say, "why didn't they report the fondling when it happened?" People just let it go and dealt with it.
The main point is there is really nothing Jordan could have done to stop it and now he is being singled out because of his political leanings. Also, just because people tell you it happened, it does not mean that he would say, "oh yeah, the guy was a pervert and I know it is true." That is not enough for him to come forward, unless he had first hand experience.
We can talk about divisiveness and this is a big reason for it. The press is trying to do anything they can to hurt Jordan in this situation. It is to the point that a bunch of coaches have come out in his defense. Lets see how much of that is reported on CNN. If there are victims, hopefully they can get some resolution and peace from this process. No reason to go out and try to tar and feather a person who had no real ability to change the situation and is now far removed from it. Anyone who can't see what the press is trying to do here, does not want to see it. That anger is going to eat you up. Picking on Jordan does not help the "victims" if there were any.
I can believe the coaches reported it and I can believe they did not report it. I can believe the administration shoved it under a rug also. The reason is because nothing came of this stuff. People were not going to take it to court and press charges so people lived with it. The embarrassment was not worth it to a lot of people in those days. There was no big monetary payout to be had. Offer people a few hundred thousand or million dollars and they are much more willing to deal with the shame and embarrassment of the situation.
The times are different now and the guy would get canned right away if the administrators wanted to. Applying todays reporting standards to the ones in place years ago are not fair to anyone involved. Just like it is not fair to say, "why didn't they report the fondling when it happened?" People just let it go and dealt with it.
The main point is there is really nothing Jordan could have done to stop it and now he is being singled out because of his political leanings. Also, just because people tell you it happened, it does not mean that he would say, "oh yeah, the guy was a pervert and I know it is true." That is not enough for him to come forward, unless he had first hand experience.
We can talk about divisiveness and this is a big reason for it. The press is trying to do anything they can to hurt Jordan in this situation. It is to the point that a bunch of coaches have come out in his defense. Lets see how much of that is reported on CNN. If there are victims, hopefully they can get some resolution and peace from this process. No reason to go out and try to tar and feather a person who had no real ability to change the situation and is now far removed from it. Anyone who can't see what the press is trying to do here, does not want to see it. That anger is going to eat you up. Picking on Jordan does not help the "victims" if there were any.
I went to HS in the 80's. At my school, we had a couple of male teachers that every student knew was screwing around with HS girls. My older siblings new about it, I knew about it, people that went to school after me knew about it. One of the teachers eventually became assistant principal and then the athletic director at the school but nothing really changed with his behavior. Again, this went on for years and was common knowledge among students so it had to have been know by teachers and other school employees. About 6-7 years after I graduated, I former female student came forward and said that she had sexual relations with this teacher/administrator while she was a student and felt that he had taken advantage of her. No charges were ever filed but he was fired and he lost his teaching license. Not a single past or current student at the time was surprised when this came to light and although a few teachers and admins feigned shock and outrage, most just simply shrugged and had no real comment on the situation despite being fully aware of the man's reputation and stories.
In short, things like this sound crazy and you wonder why no one ever says anything. Maybe they don't want to believe it. Maybe they think it's not really their responsibility or they don't want to get involved. Maybe they want to wait for someone else to say something first. And you also wonder how someone like this doctor can be so brazen and do these outrageous things with the careers on the line, their marriage/family on the line, their potential freedom on the line, etc, yet they continue on, thinking they are above the law, that no one will stop them.
I'm pretty convinced that the doctor, who is the true bad guy in all of this,is guilty of what he is being accused of at this point. As for Jim Jordan, he either is in self preservation mode and is throwing these athletes under the bus by not supporting their claims that they at least discussed this with him or that he was aware of it, or he is using the Bill Clinton defense ("I did not have sexual relations......") by creating his own definition of what sexual harassment/assault is and what constitutes what his athletes said to him as being jokes/locker room talk vs. being legitimate concerns or request for help.
The shame, loneliness, fear of being singled out or isolated from the team, fear of not reaching your goal (say, Olympic gymnastics team), fear of not being believed...it adds up.
Another friend was raped in high school by her best friend of ten years. Her parents didn't believe she was raped ("he's been your friend almost your whole life"). She got pregnant as a result of the rape, played dumb as to who the father was (which of course had its own set of challenges, but she didn't want the rapist to have access to the child), and left home at 16.
OK, maybe I just never felt the need to be "on a team" that badly...I dunno. I can totally see where younger kids would be very vulnerable to being shamed, beguiled and guilted into silence, but in the cases where the people being abused are 18+ year old college students...it is far harder for me to comprehend that so, so many would "let it ride", especially for 20-30 years. I can see where some would take this route, I can't see where virtually all would though.
As I outlined in an earlier post, the one time in my life where I had anything approaching this happen to me...I reported it, I suppose you could say "officially", as soon as I sensed something fishy. To not address it never crossed my mind.
In the other case you cited, I think that is an example of something else. The young lady DID report it, although unfortunately she was not believed. While bad, I am not seeing that as the same phenomenon.
I’m guessing that many knew about the doctors odd behavior but none believed it rose to the level of sexual abuse.
It sounds like locker room jokes were made about the doctors behavior. When something like that is “normalized,” it probably makes many young adult think twice about their perception of questionable behavior and reporting said abuse to coaches already in the know and laughing about the behavior.
Well, wait a minute...are we talking something serious, as initially indicated in the OP for this now, 8 page long thread.
Excerpt from the OP...
"Representative Jim Jordan (Republican U.S. Congress / Ohio) the latest in the catalogue of NCAA officials (former) to be caught in a shameful series of behaviors. This time involving intercollegiate wrestling at Ohio State University. One thing that is so maddening is the unending stream of denials from people whose primary responsibility is the welfare of the student athlete(s) for whom they have supervisory control. Deny, deny, deny! Just once someone should step forward and accept accountability.
Maybe the university president (Graham Spanier, resigned Penn State President) can deny knowledge because he is so far removed from the ‘locker room’. But Jim Jordan was right there with these ‘kids’ when these actions/crimes occurred. And he is a central/fundamental part of the staff responsible for ‘institutional control’ of the wrestling program"
Or are we now theorizing that it was low level locker room talk that no one took very seriously? The word "crimes" was used, I took that to mean something serious happened, not just some guys joshing around, etc.
My recollection is that abuse in the Catholic Church was primarily directed towards much younger kids, 10-14 years old. I have already posted a couple of times that I can see how younger kids could be much more easily manipulated into silence, etc.
Here though, we are talking about young adults...I think that is different.
I’m theorizing that some actions twenty years ago would be judged differently today.
