Kansas wins 13th consecutive Big 12 basketball title proving the conference is a joke

[EZ2BJZ]

This is just intellectual dishonesty. Was Indiana playing like the 12th best team in the league when it beat UNC and KU? No. Since then they have injuries and Crean has laid and egg coaching wise.

His point is to frame the debate the same way many Cyclone fans do by manipulating facts or presenting them without context. For example, up until December, Iowa State fans gloated about how superior they have been head-to-head against Iowa as of late. While they did indeed win 3/4 during the Georges Niang era, that number would have been flipped had Iowa made free throws at the end of games played in Hilton. Iowa blew double-digit leads their last two trips there. In short, hardly ISU dominance.

Talking about the Lickliter era makes as much sense as bragging about Iowa football supremacy during the days of Jim Walden.

 

[EZ2BJZ]

Alford would have been fine without the attitude and off the court issues with one player in particular.

I agree with you to a large extent. Alford was without question an ego maniac and whenever Iowa was losing the blame was always on the players (which to some extent is true) but never, do I recall at least, did he publicly take any of the onus or blame. And there were plenty of games in which he was just flat outcoached.

Also, after his initial recruiting class with Worley, Reiner, and Evans, his recruiting was worse than Davis's.

 

[Myvue]

The problem with that theory is its no different today in football. On the gridiron its pretty much Oklahoma and everyone else. A couple of teams are decent, but can't beat the big boys, W Virginny, OK State, Baylor, (and that ones gone now), K State,(and their going to fall off the map when Snyder retires). The rest of the league is crap. Their the only power five conf who hasn't had a team in the final four to this point. Pretty hard to call the pillow fight that is the big 12 a football rich conference.

No matter how good Big XII football teams are it's a lot more difficult to get a team in the final four of football because unlike the Big X the Big XII teams have to play every team in the league every year and twice in basketball which makes it impossible to have more than one team with an undefeated season. In the Big X or other leagues that have a boat load of teams whether in FB or BB some of your teams have multiple games against the lowest in your conference and depending on the year only play a few of the top teams in your conference making it possible to have multiple undefeated teams.

 

[Dauminator]

The point of this thread is another poster taking an indirect potshot at Iowa State by saying the league they play in sucks. Thus, ostensibly inviting Cyclone fans to chime in and take potshots at Iowa. And ultimately, this thread will turn into a 10-page pissing match on whose jimmy is bigger than the other's.

In terms of sensible conversation, I think KU's streak says more about them and how consistently good they've been than anything else, although obviously KU has had a lot of disappointing showings in the Dance (sans 2008 of course). While the Big XII is typically not as strong a conference as the ACC, B1G (most years), and other P5 conferences, they still have had good teams from time to time during this 13-year run not named Kansas (Oklahoma last year and the Blake Griffin year, ISU a couple years with Fred, OSU with Smart, and a few Rick Barnes Texas teams, i.e.). So, yeah, while this will not be popular, Kansas's streak is very impressive.

Get out of here with your logic. We don't cotton to that sort of things here on the interwebs.

No, I pretty much agree with you here. Big Twelve gets a little more love than I think they've earned, and history suggests they won't perform as well as their rep in the tournament. Or maybe they'll get three final four teams, who knows. What I do know is that tying any Wooden-era UCLA record is impressive, so hat's off to them.

 

[EZ2BJZ]

No matter how good Big XII football teams are it's a lot more difficult to get a team in the final four of football because unlike the Big X the Big XII teams have to play every team in the league every year and twice in basketball which makes it impossible to have more than one team with an undefeated season. In the Big X or other leagues that have a boat load of teams whether in FB or BB some of your teams have multiple games against the lowest in your conference and depending on the year only play a few of the top teams in your conference making it possible to have multiple undefeated teams.

You do realize the B1G had 4 legitimate Top 10 teams in football this year, right? Hence why a 1-loss Ohio State team was able to get in the CFP. Your logic only makes sense if this was the old era of the Big 2 (Ohio State and Michigan) and the Little 8 (everyone else). The fact is champion Penn State played 3 AP Top 10 conference opponents (beating OSU and Wisconsin and losing to Michigan).

The "Big" XII champion Sooners lost two non-conference games, one of them to Ohio State who throttled them in Norman, before running the table in the weak Big XII. So, sorry, but your argument is monkey muffins and pigeon pellets.

And please. Nobody goes undefeated in basketball in any of the P5 conferences. Doesn't happen. The B1G is down in basketball this year, without question, but to think the eventual champion played a cupcake schedule is insanely idiotic. Especially last year. So, again, epic fail.

 

[kceasthawk]

KU doesn't get knocked out early so many times. Self has a better record in the tournament since he has been at KU than any coach except for Calipari and Coach K. And the winning percentage is close to both.

And really, Self has just been a master of winning games in conference. He did it at Illinois and Tulsa as well. At Illinois he won the League two out of the 3 years he was there and I believe the same is true at Tulsa. I think if Embiid wouldn't have gotten injured, Self would have another championship.

I trying to put this in perspective of a team that has won 13 straight conference championships. These are their early outs to lower ranked teams in that time period.
2005 3rd seed KU loss to 14th seed Bucknell in first round
2006 4th seed KU loss to 13th seed Bradley in first round
2010 1 seed KU loss to 9th seed UNI in 2nd round
2011 1 seed KU loss to 11 seed VCU in reg final
2014 2 seed KU loss to 10th seed Stanford 2nd round
2015 2 seed KU loss to 10 seed WSU 2nd round
Thats almost half of all the years they were knocked out most of the time by a double didgey seed when they were a high seed. That doesn't look all that impressive considering the easier path they get as a one or two seed.

 

[K OKeefe]

All we hear is how deep the Big 12 is when in reality its a one team league: Kansas. Everybody else is fighting for 2nd place.

What a joke. The games are just a formality. Everybody knows every year in October that Kansas will win the league. Other fan bases (like the CLOWNS) may be hopeful, but the league is just too weak. It's a one team league.

Gotta feel bad for the Big 12 now and for its future.

So when the UCLA Bruins won 13 conference titles in a row does that make their league garbage? When the Iowa wrestling team won 9 National Championships in a row and 25 big 10 championships in a row was NCAA collegiate wrestling garbage or the Big 10 a garbage wrestling conference? Just trying to get the perspective. It seems like Penn State is the B1G behemoth right now- does that make Iowa wrestling garbage?. Everything is cyclical and some cycles run longer than others.

 

[kceasthawk]

So when the UCLA Bruins won 13 conference titles in a row does that make their league garbage? When the Iowa wrestling team won 9 National Championships in a row and 25 big 10 championships in a row was NCAA collegiate wrestling garbage or the Big 10 a garbage wrestling conference? Just trying to get the perspective. It seems like Penn State is the B1G behemoth right now- does that make Iowa wrestling garbage?. Everything is cyclical and some cycles run longer than others.

I can only answer that from my perspective. When those schools won the conferences they went on an dominated their tournys and won championships. My point is, if the big 12 was that good, how come when KU wins every year, half the time they get knocked out in the tourney in the first round or two, by a double didget seed? Not once, but six or seven times in 14 years.

 

[H4wkfan4life]

Meanwhile, Iowa basketball continues a streak of not winning a conference title since 1979. What that proves I don't know?

You shouldn't be anywhere near an iowa forum this year. gonna be the same next year too

 

[K OKeefe]

I can only answer that from my perspective. When those schools won the conferences they went on an dominated their tournys and won championships. My point is, if the big 12 was that good, how come when KU wins every year, half the time they get knocked out in the tourney in the first round or two, by a double didget seed? Not once, but six or seven times in 14 years.

Looking at Bill Self's resume while @ Kansas. Kansas has tied for the regular season conference championship 4 times and won 9 outright, so for 4 years at least one other team was as good as Kansas. As far as their NCAA Tournament resume- 2 Round of 64, 3 Round of 32, 2 Sweet 16s, 4 Elite Eights, 1 NCAA Runner Up, and 1 Championship. 8 out of 14 years he has made it to at least the Sweet 16.

Funny thing about Bill Self, he seems to be a 1st place guy. He guided Illinois to two consecutive 1st place finishes in the Big 10 and finished with a second place before jumping to Kansas. In addition, he guided Tulsa to two consecutive 1st place finishes and an Elite Eight. It appears he kind of dominates whatever conference he is in. He had four consecutive first place finishes between Tulsa and Illinois.

 

[Myvue]

Self himself is surely worth up to 6 points for himself each game. He probably gets that by smoozing the refs all game. You might be surprised that Kansas is not steam rolling teams this year but he is winning close games in spite of only playing 7 players. Helps when you have a freshman in Josh Jackson on the team that is projected by most 2017 mock drafts to be drafted from 3rd to 6th in the first round. He has star power.

In conference though besides their two conference losses at home by 3 points in overtime to Iowa State and at Virginia by 16 points Kansas has won three home games by 2-3 and 4 points and four road games by 1-2-3 and 4 points each. If teams opponents could have just made the 2 to 6 points in those close games you could take 7 wins away from Kansas and instead of 13-2 in conference they would be 6-9, big difference.

What a difference a little attention to detail makes. Don't be surprised if Kansas makes an early exit they have the resume to be seeded where they are but in post season it is one and done and anything can happen to any team. They also had wins of only 6 and 7 points in two other conference games and only had three games where they won in double digits at home against the three Texas teams.

The main reason Kansas keeps winning is they have the rep that can get players drafted high. There are many Kansas players in the NBA right now. Even Bill Self can not coach just any person to be a star as is evidenced with his son Tyler Self who is a 5th year senior this year. Self has probably been teaching him to play basketball since he could walk. I'll bet not many people even know Tyler was on the Kansas team as in his 4 year career he has played a total of 87 minutes and scored a grand total of 14 points.

 

[tiger2121]

78-64. Someday the clowns will be as awesome as clown fans think they are. That day isn't today.

Facts:
Omaha 98 Hawks 89 (IN CARVER!)
ISU 91 Omaha 47
Conclusion:
Is Omaha a better team than Hawks & are they having a better season? nope & nope

So HerkyFan & Franisdaman can have a circle jerk & watch the replay of Hawks 78-64 win over ISU come March....
I'll be enjoying watching our 6th straight trip to the dance & seeking a 3rd Sweet Sixteen appearance in 4 years!!! bawahahahahahahahahahahahaha

 

[Lone Clone]

The Big XII this year is stronger at the bottom than any year I can remember. Some pretty damned good teams are going to finish in the second division and miss the Dance. On the flip side, the league doesn't have any truly dominant teams this season. KU, West Virginia, Iowa State, have all lost at home, which is unusual.

One point -- although I realize what kind of thread this is -- if you're going to talk about how many teams a conference sends to the tournament, you have to consider that the Big XII has 10 teams and the BiG has 14 or 15 or however many this year.

 

[FairfIowafan1984]

Can iowa not talk about the big 12 without clone fans flooding the board?

This topic wasn't about Iowa state it was about Kansas.

Let's not have this be a 12 pager with clone fans and iowa fans bashing each other back and forth those posts get really pathetic!

 

[Lone Clone]

Can iowa not talk about the big 12 without clone fans flooding the board?

This topic wasn't about Iowa state it was about Kansas.

Let's not have this be a 12 pager with clone fans and iowa fans bashing each other back and forth those posts get really pathetic!

Hope that wasn't directed at me. I think you make a good point. But if the thread is about the Big XII, it would seem logical to see posts from people who are familiar with the Big XII.

 

[FairfIowafan1984]

Hope that wasn't directed at me. I think you make a good point. But if the thread is about the Big XII, it would seem logical to see posts from people who are familiar with the Big XII.

No it wasn't at you, your the only clone fan on this board that doesn't troll and you make valid points while still supporting your team.

 

[David1979]

I trying to put this in perspective of a team that has won 13 straight conference championships. These are their early outs to lower ranked teams in that time period.
2005 3rd seed KU loss to 14th seed Bucknell in first round
2006 4th seed KU loss to 13th seed Bradley in first round
2010 1 seed KU loss to 9th seed UNI in 2nd round
2011 1 seed KU loss to 11 seed VCU in reg final
2014 2 seed KU loss to 10th seed Stanford 2nd round
2015 2 seed KU loss to 10 seed WSU 2nd round
Thats almost half of all the years they were knocked out most of the time by a double didgey seed when they were a high seed. That doesn't look all that impressive considering the easier path they get as a one or two seed.

Upsets happen in the tournaments so I'm not sure what point you are trying to prove. he had like a 72% winning percentage in the tournament. Oh yeah and elite eight isn't an early out. I think you must have something against Self or you don't know much about college basketball. One or the other

 

[EZ2BJZ]

Facts:
Omaha 98 Hawks 89 (IN CARVER!)
ISU 91 Omaha 47
Conclusion:
Is Omaha a better team than Hawks & are they having a better season? nope & nope

So HerkyFan & Franisdaman can have a circle jerk & watch the replay of Hawks 78-64 win over ISU come March....
I'll be enjoying watching our 6th straight trip to the dance & seeking a 3rd Sweet Sixteen appearance in 4 years!!! bawahahahahahahahahahahahaha

I agree with the premise of what you're saying, but you do realize the irony of those statements given the occasional times we've had to explain similar logic to Cyclone football fans? And, of course, I imagine you made similar comments to the plethora of Cyclone fans who inundated this (Hawkeye) board after beating KU in Lawrence, right? Odd, how conspicuously absent Cyclone fans (other than LoneClone) were after the Iowa game in December up until that point.

I can't speak for all Hawkeye fans, but for me it was just nice to see Iowa hold on to a double-digit lead against the Cyclones after blowing two of them in a row at Hilton. That's all it meant to me.

For the record, every team in America has had embarrassing losses. It happens. With that said, Iowa State, like Iowa, has been wildly inconsistent this year, so comparing an Omaha win over Iowa to an Iowa win over Iowa State is absurd. Iowa State isn't that good this year. Also, with Iowa starting 4 freshmen most of the year, few, if any, Iowa fans expected Iowa to make the Dance this year. I imagine Iowa State will be in a similar boat next year.

Lol. Yeah, sure, Iowa State will make the Sweet 16 this year. Well, I guess if they have a cupcake road to the Sweet 16 like they did last year, then, well, maybe. Lol.

 

[kceasthawk]

Upsets happen in the tournaments so I'm not sure what point you are trying to prove. he had like a 72% winning percentage in the tournament. Oh yeah and elite eight isn't an early out. I think you must have something against Self or you don't know much about college basketball. One or the other

Bull. I don't have anything against Self. I think he's one of the top five coaches in college. I also think what Kansas has done is amazing, no matter the circumstances, in their conference. My point is pretty simple, so I'm sorry you can't follow along. If the big 12 was worth a damn, there is no way one school could run off 13 straight conf titles. Look around at the other conferences. No one else has done anything like it, except UCLA, and that was when they won how many straight NCAA titles? I'm fully aware there are upsets in the tourny, but to be upset in the first two rounds five or six years out of 13 is more than just once in awhile. Yes I believe KU is one of the top four or five programs in the NCAA. Just think they would be challenged a lot more on a nightly basis in the ACC, or yes even in the BIG, and they would not be running this kind of ass kicking in any of the other major conferences.

 

[anon_bb9wlf9kj42py]

ISU is playing much better now. If they end up getting a top 6 seed a run to the sweet 16 is entirely conceivable. Early in the year, they were not playing well. Solomon Young has changed the dynamics of this team and they are playing very well now.

As for next year, I agree, I think the expectations will be lower for ISU. Now we'll see what happens on the transfer market that could change my opinion.

 

[anon_bb9wlf9kj42py]

I'm fully aware there are upsets in the tourny, but to be upset in the first two rounds five or six years out of 13 is more than just once in awhile.

First off, there are only 5 programs total that have even made the tourney all of those years.

Duke was bounced 4 times the first weekend, 3 in the first round in that time same.
Wisconsin was bounced 6 times in the first weekend, 2 in the first round.
Michigan State has been bounced 5 times the first weekend, 4 times in the first round.
The only other one was Gonzaga and they don't make the second weekend often.

KU's success in the tourney is very close to other teams who have made it every year over 13 years.

 

[kceasthawk]

First off, there are only 5 programs total that have even made the tourney all of those years.

Duke was bounced 4 times the first weekend, 3 in the first round in that time same.
Wisconsin was bounced 6 times in the first weekend, 2 in the first round.
Michigan State has been bounced 5 times the first weekend, 4 times in the first round.
The only other one was Gonzaga and they don't make the second weekend often.

KU's success in the tourney is very close to other teams who have made it every year over 13 years.

Jeesss, I already said KU is a great team, and Self is one of the top coaches. SO TO THE POINT PLEASE! How many of those teams won their conference 13 straight years? Yes other teams get upset as well. Thats not the point, I was making. None of those teams runs roughshod over their conference, because there are other teams there capable in beating them. If the big 12 was all that and a bag of chips, and KU still wins the league for a 13 years in a row, you would think they'd have 9 or 10 final fours, and six or seven national titles. I'm saying they wouldn't be doing this in another top league, Period!

 

[EZ2BJZ]

First off, there are only 5 programs total that have even made the tourney all of those years.

Duke was bounced 4 times the first weekend, 3 in the first round in that time same.
Wisconsin was bounced 6 times in the first weekend, 2 in the first round.
Michigan State has been bounced 5 times the first weekend, 4 times in the first round.
The only other one was Gonzaga and they don't make the second weekend often.

KU's success in the tourney is very close to other teams who have made it every year over 13 years.

You do realize you just made his point for him, right? He is not questioning Kansas being good. He's saying winning the Big XII title 13 years in a row, given their results in the NCAA tourney, speaks to the conference not having many serious contenders to dethrone KU during their 13 year run.

All the teams you mentioned have come nowhere close to winning 5 conference titles in a row, let alone 13. Get it? You made his point for him.

 

[EZ2BJZ]

Jeesss, I already said KU is a great team, and Self is one of the top coaches. SO TO THE POINT PLEASE! How many of those teams won their conference 13 straight years? Yes other teams get upset as well. Thats not the point, I was making. None of those teams runs roughshod over their conference, because there are other teams there capable in beating them. If the big 12 was all that and a bag of chips, and KU still wins the league for a 13 years in a row, you would think they'd have 9 or 10 final fours, and six or seven national titles. I'm saying they wouldn't be doing this in another top league, Period!

Kceast, you are right on the money. I'm not sure why people are struggling so much to follow this simple line of logic. See my response to ISUBryce.

 

[EZ2BJZ]

ISU is playing much better now. If they end up getting a top 6 seed a run to the sweet 16 is entirely conceivable. Early in the year, they were not playing well. Solomon Young has changed the dynamics of this team and they are playing very well now.

As for next year, I agree, I think the expectations will be lower for ISU. Now we'll see what happens on the transfer market that could change my opinion.

I agree with you. And that has been a noticeable difference so far in Fran's teams vs Hoiberg/Prohm's: ISU usually gets better as the season goes on; Iowa seems to peak in January. This year makes sense, given how many young guys for Iowa are playing serious minutes, but it does not make sense previous years.

 

[kceasthawk]

Kceast, you are right on the money. I'm not sure why people are struggling so much to follow this simple line of logic. See my response to ISUBryce.

Thanks EZ2. I was starting to think I was talking to the trees or something.......

 

[EZ2BJZ]

Thanks EZ2. I was starting to think I was talking to the trees or something.......

Lol. It happens quite a bit on here.

 

[Ronman]

This is just intellectual dishonesty. Was Indiana playing like the 12th best team in the league when it beat UNC and KU? No. Since then they have injuries and Crean has laid and egg coaching wise.

No, to be intellectually dishonest is to deny the facts. What fallacy did I present? Did Indiana not defeat Kansas? Is Kansas not the champion of the Big 12? Is Indiana not in 12th place in the Big 10? Being a clown fan, and I assume a Big 12 fan, you may not like it, but those are the facts. If they were to play again, I make no claim that the Hoosiers could repeat the outcome, nor can you honestly ensure that they couldn't, but that does not change the fact that it occurred whether it bolsters your beliefs or not.

 

[Lone Clone]

I agree with you. And that has been a noticeable difference so far in Fran's teams vs Hoiberg/Prohm's: ISU usually gets better as the season goes on; Iowa seems to peak in January. This year makes sense, given how many young guys for Iowa are playing serious minutes, but it does not make sense previous years.

Not sure I understand your logic here. Seems to me that a young team should continue to improve throughout the season as the players gain experience and the coaching staff becomes more familiar with the strengths and weaknesses of the individual players. In other words, I wouldn't expect a young team to peak in January.

Disclaimer: I have not followed Iowa closely enough this season to know if the team peaked in January; that is, off the top of my head I don't recall when the various wins (and close losses) occurred.

 

[EZ2BJZ]

Not sure I understand your logic here. Seems to me that a young team should continue to improve throughout the season as the players gain experience and the coaching staff becomes more familiar with the strengths and weaknesses of the individual players. In other words, I wouldn't expect a young team to peak in January.

Disclaimer: I have not followed Iowa closely enough this season to know if the team peaked in January; that is, off the top of my head I don't recall when the various wins (and close losses) occurred.

Usually freshmen hit a wall. There was noticeable improvement in December and much of January.

Iowa's late season collapses have been well documented and much lamented on here.

 

[DavenportHawk8]

Is it true that the girl basketball player who came out against the KU mens program has seen her PT decrease? WTF is that about?

I have a feeling Self is losing control of that program and there are alot of issues outside of it. He better get it back under control or the NCAA will come sniffing around and penalize the Womens team for the Men's bad behavior.

ISU seems to be hitting their stride. They could be a dangerous team come March. The whole thing is if Burton plays within himself. The rest of the team is nice, but if Burton gets too greedy that teams seems to struggle. He is either a great play or turnover. No in between.

I hope they do well and represent the state. Hell a month ago I thought the state of Iowa was going to be shut out of the NCAA. UNI & Iowa has to win their Conference Tourneys.

 

[ScoutRefugee]

Meanwhile, Iowa basketball continues a streak of not winning a conference title since 1979. What that proves I don't know?

7 different BIG teams have won a BIG regular season titles in the last 13 seasons. That's his point and that's why the BIG will always be better than the Texas Ten.
Iowa hasn't won a tilte since 1979 because the AD is dog shit and the fans don't place expectations on him or any other AD since the mid 80s.

 

[ROCKY MOUNTAIN HAWK]

Just skimmed this thread & it's nice to see that Iowa & ISU fans can both agree on one thing, how bad the Big12 is.

 

[ABYPFCS]

I should have said a school that cares most about basketball in a league with schools that care most about football (with a few exceptions).

Kind of like Kentucky in the SEC.

 

[DogBoyRy]

Which conference besides the ACC would you rank ahead of the Big 12 this year? Just curious.

Big 10 and pac 10