Lack of Backs

[Azchief32]

No back points the whole match despite having dead second period Purdue wrestlers. This has been our undoing. For example, I think a Senior in Gilman should be able to turn guys...same with Clark or Brooks. This is the key to winning titles, or lackthereof in the last five years.

Ironsides complained about it but you can also see it in his mindset...Kemdawg was in a situation trying to turn a guy while trying for a TD and MI got on him about trying to be cute instead of just getting the two. IMO, guys like Kemdawg should think and risk for creativity's sake. Can't get on guys for not opening up and when they do, criticize them for it.

Matches like Purdue should be approached with an eye for getting better, not just winning. Take some risks against a lesser guy, find out what works and what doesn't. If he scores on you, one can still recoup the points.

 

[Pennstate1985]

Purdue was a practice match for all intents. When it gets real in March, guys are going to need their mat skills. Yesterday would have been a good day to practice on the mat, and if you score fewer, so be it. The important thing is to progress toward March.

 

[AFHawk86]

Normally I would agree, but I was happy about the aggressiveness from neutral. The Hawks averaged 14 points per match with a lot of TDs. I was more concerned about the inability for Wilcke and Holloway to get out from bottom.

 

[butchinmi]

I'm not trying to throw stones at the staff, I'm simply asking a question. Who on the staff would you consider the "top game" expert?

I saw something the other day from a wrestler in PA (sorry, forgot who it was) that stated guys from PA are good on top and guys from Ohio are mainly good on their feet. Seemed like a massive generalization as I can think of a few guys who are great on top from Ohio (Streebler being one). Are there certain clubs that have an identity for a good top game? (Young Guns, etc.)

It seems like we take the high risk out of people like Brooks and PSU has almost encouraged the go for broke (heck, it cost Bo a title last year, but also scored a ton of points getting there). I think the lack of being able to turn guys is a massive concern come tournament time. Takedown, let them up equals 1. Back points can = 4.

 

[255]

I remember a story about gable getting mad at guys for getting a pin in the early-season too quickly. As I remember the story Randy Lewis had to tell gable that pinning is the only thing that motivates him. It seems that a lot of programs over the years have gone to the early-season practice matches as opposed to trying to pin everybody all the time. I don't know if that's the case now but I'd like to see more pins out of the Hawks.

 

[artradley]

Normally I would agree, but I was happy about the aggressiveness from neutral. The Hawks averaged 14 points per match with a lot of TDs. I was more concerned about the inability for Wilcke and Holloway to get out from bottom.

I agree with AZ, but sadly I agree with this, as well. We have had so many guys content to get one TD, an escape, and hopefully riding time it was good to see them aggressively trying to score points. But our inability to turn anybody, even when the opponent was finished, is depressing.

 

[artradley]

I remember a story about gable getting mad at guys for getting a pin in the early-season too quickly. As I remember the story Randy Lewis had to tell gable that pinning is the only thing that motivates him. It seems that a lot of programs over the years have gone to the early-season practice matches as opposed to trying to pin everybody all the time. I don't know if that's the case now but I'd like to see more pins out of the Hawks.

Some tilts would be nice. And 3rd period falls.

 

[crablegs1]

Pins and techs are absolutely necessary to keep up with a team like PSU in the team race. Hard to get many of those without turning people.

 

[DonHawkeye]

I loved seeing the aggressiveness on the feet. Frankly I think many of our guys over the last couple years have got caught up trying to turn and ride guys for too long only to let matches that should have never been close be close. I know there is a happy medium somewhere but we need to make sure we are getting the major then turn and pin guys.

 

[lookleft goright]

I'm not trying to throw stones at the staff, I'm simply asking a question. Who on the staff would you consider the "top game" expert?

There in lies the problem with very few back points. You can talk about it, but if you aren't showing it and encouraging it in practice and the wrestlers aren't feeling it from their practice partners, they won't do it in matches.

I saw something the other day from a wrestler in PA (sorry, forgot who it was) that stated guys from PA are good on top and guys from Ohio are mainly good on their feet. Seemed like a massive generalization as I can think of a few guys who are great on top from Ohio (Streebler being one). Are there certain clubs that have an identity for a good top game? (Young Guns, etc.)

It seems like we take the high risk out of people like Brooks and PSU has almost encouraged the go for broke

Somewhere there is a fear of losing or not executing specific techniques perfectly or something. As hard as the Hawks work, it would be cool to see them just let it fly and not be concerned about giving up points because they are confident they will make them up. Maybe, I am misunderstanding, but it seems that the Brands want a mistake free match. Mistakes are costly, so don't make them. That is the message I get (as an outsider and listening to his interviews etc..)

It must have been a couple years ago and Brooks tried a throw and got caught on his back to lose a close match with an OSU guy. Brands said he has to be careful when he tries a throw. It can't be in a 50/50 situation. Brooks doesn't hardly throw any more. Is it survival, getting smarter, or having the risk coached out of him? I do not know.

(heck, it cost Bo a title last year, but also scored a ton of points getting there). I think the lack of being able to turn guys is a massive concern come tournament time. Takedown, let them up equals 1. Back points can = 4.

 

[ping72]

I got the impression they were coached to put on takedown clinics instead of turning guys, but just a guess.

 

[Azchief32]

Clark was doing his thing on top but to no success. Everybody in the wrestling world knows Clark is going to his arm bars which should create good opportunities for tilts or something else.

It seems there is a formula at work to get majors:

1st Period: Get two TDs, ride them out. Score 4-1.

2nd: Escape 5-1 (if we get the choice) or ride them a bit more (if we don't) to get riding time and then cut them 4-2. Get at least one TD in the second and enter the third on the cusp of a major

3rd: Finish the major and go out with a 11-3 ish score or just miss it because the guy is actively preventing it...not wrestling.

If we are really dominating, TD/release until a TF. I get working on the feet but sometimes you might need backs as a cusion because the guy is better on the feet (see Mark Hall loss)...we are just risk adverse in this area.

 

[HawkwardEncounter]

Clark was doing his thing on top but to no success. Everybody in the wrestling world knows Clark is going to his arm bars which should create good opportunities for tilts or something else.

It seems there is a formula at work to get majors:

1st Period: Get two TDs, ride them out. Score 4-1.

2nd: Escape 5-1 (if we get the choice) or ride them a bit more (if we don't) to get riding time and then cut them 4-2. Get at least one TD in the second and enter the third on the cusp of a major

3rd: Finish the major and go out with a 11-3 ish score or just miss it because the guy is actively preventing it...not wrestling.

If we are really dominating, TD/release until a TF. I get working on the feet but sometimes you might need backs as a cusion because the guy is better on the feet (see Mark Hall loss)...we are just risk adverse in this area.

I would like Clark to try a hammerlock tilt(cowboy tilt). He has no problem taking an arm away from whoever he wrestles. If his wing isn't working, he could switch off to the tilt. Rutherford nails people with it all of the time.

 

[Sandor45]

Iowa needs more back points as much as Will Farrell needs more cowbells.

 

[akaoni]

With the new scoring system, every wrestler needs to have a tilt as part of their arsenal. If we don't have them we leave points on the mat.

 

[hoythawk]

In response to lookleftgoright: You couldn't be more wrong. Brands preaches to not worry about giving up points or making mistakes because you can always get them back.

 

[kingslayer_85]

No back points the whole match despite having dead second period Purdue wrestlers. This has been our undoing. For example, I think a Senior in Gilman should be able to turn guys...same with Clark or Brooks. This is the key to winning titles, or lackthereof in the last five years.

Ironsides complained about it but you can also see it in his mindset...Kemdawg was in a situation trying to turn a guy while trying for a TD and MI got on him about trying to be cute instead of just getting the two. IMO, guys like Kemdawg should think and risk for creativity's sake. Can't get on guys for not opening up and when they do, criticize them for it.

Matches like Purdue should be approached with an eye for getting better, not just winning. Take some risks against a lesser guy, find out what works and what doesn't. If he scores on you, one can still recoup the points.

You Iowa fans take the cake, I think you can even ruin a wet dream involving Jessica Alba. Finding something to complain about while Sorenson and Meyer were racking up TD's and getting bonus points. This is what you will need to be competitive come NCAA's

 

[el dub]

Jeesh…. Some people would complain if they were hung by a new rope.

 

[Big Fall]

Tough crowd. I'd love to see the responses if Iowa had spent all its time trying to turn and/or throw and win a bunch of matches by decision. Hawks were super active and trying to score a lot of points. I don't see that as something to nit pick. It's one dual in November. Chill out.

 

[reddogg26]

While I agree with most we could have used some back points but I love that fact that BS and Meyer were putting clinics on. Kemdawg is legit as the season wears on he will only get better at finishing those shots. I am so excited for Kem vs. Nolf and Kem vs. Smith. I am not saying he beats either one just excited to see where he is at with the top 2 at his weight. GMan did what he does and earned us 5 team points with no backs. Clark left points out there but the kid he was wrestling does have VERY good defense. Brooks probably left a few points out there also but still got the major. Topher surprised me a bit and didn't look all that bad. Maybe Topher can qualify at 141 for us after all. 165 and 197 are issues but it is what it is there. Hwt. will work itself out and Sam will find himself wrestling for 3rd.

 

[Sandor45]

While I agree with most we could have used some back points but I love that fact that BS and Meyer were putting clinics on. Kemdawg is legit as the season wears on he will only get better at finishing those shots. I am so excited for Kem vs. Nolf and Kem vs. Smith. I am not saying he beats either one just excited to see where he is at with the top 2 at his weight. GMan did what he does and earned us 5 team points with no backs. Clark left points out there but the kid he was wrestling does have VERY good defense. Brooks probably left a few points out there also but still got the major. Topher surprised me a bit and didn't look all that bad. Maybe Topher can qualify at 141 for us after all. 165 and 197 are issues but it is what it is there. Hwt. will work itself out and Sam will find himself wrestling for 3rd.

Apparently, Montoya from nebby wasn't impressed with clarks performance either...

 

[jerot]

Purdue was a practice match for all intents. When it gets real in March, guys are going to need their mat skills. Yesterday would have been a good day to practice on the mat, and if you score fewer, so be it. The important thing is to progress toward March.

Awesome, thanks!

 

[crablegs1]

You Iowa fans take the cake, I think you can even ruin a wet dream involving Jessica Alba. Finding something to complain about while Sorenson and Meyer were racking up TD's and getting bonus points. This is what you will need to be competitive come NCAA's

No, we need pins. If we can't get turns and pins against Purdue, we're not likely to get many at NCAAs. The best guys on the Purdue team are the kind of guys we need to be pinning in round 1 at nationals. Sorry, but MDs in round 1 puts us behind the 8ball against PSU because you can count on pins from their guys.

Most Iowa fans want to see national championships, and like it or not, pinning lower level competition is what it's going to take to win one.

 

[Azchief32]

You Iowa fans take the cake, I think you can even ruin a wet dream involving Jessica Alba. Finding something to complain about while Sorenson and Meyer were racking up TD's and getting bonus points. This is what you will need to be competitive come NCAA's

Let's put it in perspective...we had three TF's and pins combined in the tourney last year. Gilman TF'd his first guy and pinned NATO. Brooks had a TF in the first round. That was it. Retherford and Nolf had more bonus point matches than us as a team.

125-Bonused everyone to the finals
133-Bonus first round, no more after that
149-Bonus first round, no more after that
157-No Bonus, got pinned 2X
174-One Bonus in wrestlebacks (Heroic effort though to get to AA)
184-One TF in first round, got pinned
197-No Bonus

So, of 32 total matches, we bonused in 8 matches. We got pinned more than we pinned. Not everybody is going to be Purdue. To be "competitive" at the NCAA's, going to need more than that or we can be a program and fan base that settles for top 5 finishes complete with gloomy team pictures. Love my guys but we have to open up more.

 

[WWDMHawkeye]

Apparently, Montoya from nebby wasn't impressed with clarks performance either...

I think I'm out of the loop and missed something. What's this in reference to, just out of curiosity?

 

[WWDMHawkeye]

I would like Clark to try a hammerlock tilt(cowboy tilt). He has no problem taking an arm away from whoever he wrestles. If his wing isn't working, he could switch off to the tilt. Rutherford nails people with it all of the time.

Was just thinking this recently. Would be a great addition to Cory's arsenal.

 

[1stplacehawk]

Most guys are what they are, and it really doesn't matter

Clark was doing his thing on top but to no success. Everybody in the wrestling world knows Clark is going to his arm bars which should create good opportunities for tilts or something else.

It seems there is a formula at work to get majors:

1st Period: Get two TDs, ride them out. Score 4-1.

2nd: Escape 5-1 (if we get the choice) or ride them a bit more (if we don't) to get riding time and then cut them 4-2. Get at least one TD in the second and enter the third on the cusp of a major

3rd: Finish the major and go out with a 11-3 ish score or just miss it because the guy is actively preventing it...not wrestling.

If we are really dominating, TD/release until a TF. I get working on the feet but sometimes you might need backs as a cusion because the guy is better on the feet (see Mark Hall loss)...we are just risk adverse in this area.

It's because Retherford and Nolf are better wrestlers than anybody on our team not named Gilman. Our guys just aren't capable of doing what those guys do. Only a few wrestlers in the NCAA are

 

[Azchief32]

Most guys are what they are, and it really doesn't matter

It's because Retherford and Nolf are better wrestlers than anybody on our team not named Gilman. Our guys just aren't capable of doing what those guys do. Only a few wrestlers in the NCAA are

I get that. I don't expect Sorensen to get more bonus than Retherford. I don't expect Kemdawg (at least not yet) to get more bonus than Nolf. However, I should expect that we outbonus them as a team...especially given the fact that Gilman gave us a four match start.

 

[PrairieHawk24]

I think I'm out of the loop and missed something. What's this in reference to, just out of curiosity?

Montoya called out Clark on Twitter

 

[lookleft goright]

In response to lookleftgoright: You couldn't be more wrong. Brands preaches to not worry about giving up points or making mistakes because you can always get them back.

If that is true, then I would love to know why it doesn't translate into that type of style. It is a mystery to me. Please realize that I am not trying to criticize Coach Brands. Maybe the words are be aggressive and take chances but the body language etc says don't make mistakes.

The other possibility is that the guys don't have the talent to score big points and bonus people. Personally, I am amazed at the way the Hawks can dominate match and win 3-1. The power, conditioning, technique seems to all be there. The points don't seem to arrive.

I totally agree with AZcheif. Without bonus points, there will not be a NCAA team title in Iowa city this year. PSU's bonus points are going to be the equivalent of 1-2 finalist points. Gonna be hard to overcome. tOSU will get their fair share of them also.

 

[T8KUDWN]

Normally I would agree, but I was happy about the aggressiveness from neutral. The Hawks averaged 14 points per match with a lot of TDs. I was more concerned about the inability for Wilcke and Holloway to get out from bottom.

Kind of baffles me with Wilcke... I'm not saying it's Phil Keddy good, but Wilcke does have a damn quick, explosive stand up from bottom.

 

[crapman]

Kind of baffles me with Wilcke... I'm not saying it's Phil Keddy good, but Wilcke does have a damn quick, explosive stand up from bottom.

Too bad he didn't use it.

 

[WildTurk]

March is long ways off. I will give the guys a break for no backs on Turkey weekend. Damn tryptophan!

 

[IrishinGA]

I got the impression they were coached to put on takedown clinics instead of turning guys, but just a guess.

Agreed!!!

 

[kingslayer_85]

Let's put it in perspective...we had three TF's and pins combined in the tourney last year. Gilman TF'd his first guy and pinned NATO. Brooks had a TF in the first round. That was it. Retherford and Nolf had more bonus point matches than us as a team.

125-Bonused everyone to the finals
133-Bonus first round, no more after that
149-Bonus first round, no more after that
157-No Bonus, got pinned 2X
174-One Bonus in wrestlebacks (Heroic effort though to get to AA)
184-One TF in first round, got pinned
197-No Bonus

So, of 32 total matches, we bonused in 8 matches. We got pinned more than we pinned. Not everybody is going to be Purdue. To be "competitive" at the NCAA's, going to need more than that or we can be a program and fan base that settles for top 5 finishes complete with gloomy team pictures. Love my guys but we have to open up more.

This is not as bold as joe Namath guaranteeing victory but I guarantee that you get more points this year at 157

 

[FineMaterial]

Iowa needs more back points as much as Will Farrell needs more cowbells.

It's the only prescription when you need more team points.

 

[Sandor45]

It's the only prescription when you need more team points.

Hey! I've got a fever!
and the only prescription are four point tilts!

 

[LaxHawk174]

Montoya called out Clark on Twitter

View embedded media

Chief's response to him was gold. "Not everybody can dominate guys like Jarrod Maynes from UVU 9-8"

 

[Azchief32]

This is not as bold as joe Namath guaranteeing victory but I guarantee that you get more points this year at 157

Of this, I have no doubt. Love the kid. Everything you want in a wrestler/student. Can't wait to see how he ends up.

 

[MVPFAN]

IMO we have spent too much time trying to turn guys early in the past. Work the TDs and tire them out and them go for backs. If you can't get them then get the tech.