I'm typically all for the release, but when you have a guy who brings negative publicity to the program and you stick your neck out for them I can understand not giving a release
Logan Ryan is out
- Thread starter BIG10MANIAC
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I release all the Dbags on HR to BWI. Ur welcome Merica!
2017: Penn State
2016: Penn State
2015: Ohio State
2014: Penn State
2013: Penn State
2012: Penn State
2011: Penn State
2010: Iowa
2009: Iowa
2008: Iowa
Do you think people aren't aware of that? It wasn't recruiting "only" top tens that did it.
Here's how the board basically works.
Tarp posts something ridiculous
He gets called out for it
People jump to his defense for the comment
Given time to think about and realize the ridiculousness, he comes back and clarifies with something far more realistic
People declare he was right all along
Wash. Rinse. Repeat.
twat waffle.....thank you for that one 60 years old and I just added a new term of endearment to my arsenal!!
That list is impressive, and shows that Gable/Zalesky/Brands can help develop talent. But I don't think it counters Tarp or others' point that getting highly rated recruits is a must for winning a team title.
Wittmer was a 1x AA, winning an ncaa title as a SR. He was a nonstarter his 3 prior years.The other 5 in that list tallied zero titles. Jenn beat Cael their RS year, but never was an AA. Fulsaas was a one time AA.
None of this is meant to put these guys down, but realistically, it is not a formula for winning titles.
You guys are about to learn why so many are long ago off the PD3 wagon. It may work out for the Hawks, but I just don't think the kid has it in him to grow up and be a man.
This whole, "Iowa wasn't recruiting Top 10 P4P talent, instead focusing on lesser talent they thought they could develop" seems dubious to me.
Isn't there a difference between "not recruiting" the top tier talent versus "not landing" the top tier talent? Certainly Iowa was guilty of not landing that talent, but do "we" KNOW they weren't trying?
Is there loads of actual evidence that Tom was not, in fact, "recruiting" this talent? Or do we assume this because he did not land this talent? A logical fallacy would be to conclude he didn't recruit them because they didn't choose Iowa.
Or maybe I missed the interview where Tom said, "I'm now going to try and recruit best guys in the country". If I missed it, could somebody link that here?
Isn't there a difference between "not recruiting" the top tier talent versus "not landing" the top tier talent? Certainly Iowa was guilty of not landing that talent, but do "we" KNOW they weren't trying?
Is there loads of actual evidence that Tom was not, in fact, "recruiting" this talent? Or do we assume this because he did not land this talent? A logical fallacy would be to conclude he didn't recruit them because they didn't choose Iowa.
Or maybe I missed the interview where Tom said, "I'm now going to try and recruit best guys in the country". If I missed it, could somebody link that here?
All one has to do is look at past recruiting classes to see TnT had a different mindset prior to 2 years ago. How many top 10 did Iowa land in previous 7 yrs? If I remembered correctly it was 1 or 2 guys, Metcalf and maybe Skon.
A top 4 team should be able to collect a few top p4p throughout a 7 yr period just by being a top 4 team, let alone being Iowa.
A top 4 team should be able to collect a few top p4p throughout a 7 yr period just by being a top 4 team, let alone being Iowa.
That may be true, but it might not be. Just because the recruiting results were different prior to 2 years ago does not, in and of itself, mean the reason was their approach or "mindset" was different. We are drawing that conclusion, but we could be wrong.
I guess what I'm wondering is, has Tom said publicly that they specifically changed who they target? Or are we just assuming they changed because the results have improved lately?
Don't have to look very hard to know he has changed. But here's a article from this past spring about changing recruiting philosophy
http://www.hawkcentral.com/story/sp...onships-spencer-lee-michael-kemerer/99355992/
http://www.hawkcentral.com/story/sp...onships-spencer-lee-michael-kemerer/99355992/
Yeah, but that article doesn't talk about a "change in philosophy" regarding targeting top 10 p4p versus lesser talent they thought they could "develop".
The change in philosophy in the article is in regards to the "type of recruits", as in doing the right things on and off the mat.
The article actually does more to prove my point:
"That 2015 Hawkeye team was supposed to win an NCAA title here in St. Louis, with five guys from 2010's No. 1-ranked recruiting class in their fifth and final years."
So, in 2010 they had the Number 1 recruiting class in the country. In 2015, those same great recruits underachieved by Iowa's standards.
My point is there is no evidence, at least that I have seen, that Tom Brands was consciously making a decision to not recruit the best kids in the nation, opting instead for multiple "projects" he hoped to "develop".
I can't force you to drink!
2015 doesn't prove your point it's his old recruiting philosophy from 2010. It's showed that he had to make a change....which he did.
2015 doesn't prove your point it's his old recruiting philosophy from 2010. It's showed that he had to make a change....which he did.
Agreed. And the change he made was to try to recruit better "people", not just better wrestlers (See Kemerer, Marinelli, Lee, etc..). His 2010 class was the best in the country, and admittedly it didn't work. He's still trying to get the best wrestlers, albeit now with more attention to the "type" of student athlete.
#GoHawks!
Tom/Terry went after the Altons hard - and others too. Now, our coaches are trying harder - more effort, more $$, more Morningstar, less Iowa City West.
Also, we've had more than our share of flops, no-shows, and injuries.
Also, we've had more than our share of flops, no-shows, and injuries.
Agreed. I'm just trying to debunk this notion that because they didn't land all the top 10 p4p talent for a while, they weren't trying. And now, suddenly, they realized they need to go after the best kids instead of multiple "projects" at each weight. It's nonsense.
More and more top p4p elites eat right, don't party, have good grades and live wrestling year around.
Today elites are not like yesterday's elites, not even close. But that's more of a societal generation growth vs wrestling. One, I thought Brands had to overcome.
Today elites are not like yesterday's elites, not even close. But that's more of a societal generation growth vs wrestling. One, I thought Brands had to overcome.
This isn't an Iowa problem. It's a college wrestling problem. I believe the attrition rate is about 30% per year. It is a lot of freaking work to be a college wrestler and sometimes when guys realize their dreams are just going to always be dreams they leave the program to focus on school/social life/other opportunities.
Fair question to ask.
It begs another question, though, which is, why would Iowa, coming off 3 consecutive NCAA titles, have difficulty landing top-10 P4P talent? And why would Iowa have better success at landing said talent post-2014 when they hadn't won a title since 2010?
Granted, it could simply be a change in scholarship amounts offered to top guys. But that's a change in strategy.
I don't think anyone here is trying to force others to drink our Kool-Aid re what we think the recruiting strategy should be, what it actually is, and how it has or hasn't changed over the past 7 years. It's all hypothesis and opinion.
So it's a fair question to ask.
Its just my opinion but I think some of that is just todays young people. Where I work is not a great job, but a good job, but it is very hard to get young people to work there or to stay. Not many seem to want to come to work every day, not to mention actually be motivated to work hard. Its not like there are tons of options down here so I have to wonder if times have just changed.Then again maybe I'm just getting older and shaking my head at the younger generation because that's what your supposed to do.
Get Off My Lawn!
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Tarp is absolutely right in today's landscape. Here are the recruit overall rankings of tOSU and PSU:
TOSU:
125-Tomasello #10
133-Pletcher #8
141-Hayes #11
149-McKenna #8
157-M. Jordan #6
165-Campbell #96
174-Bo Jordan #1
184-Martin #4
197-Moore #81
285-Snyder #1
That is 8 top 11 recruits on 1 years team and that is more than Brands has recruited his entire time as HC of Iowa
PSU:
125:losing Suriano really stings
133:?
141?
149:Retherford #3
157:Nolf #4
165:Joseph #5
174:Hall #1
184:Nickal #7
197:McCutcheon #32
285:Nevills #5
With Suriano that would have been 7 top 7 recruits. Again, that is more than Brands has recruited all together. You can get away with a couple top 100 recruits, but you need a majority of top 10s to compete.
TOSU:
125-Tomasello #10
133-Pletcher #8
141-Hayes #11
149-McKenna #8
157-M. Jordan #6
165-Campbell #96
174-Bo Jordan #1
184-Martin #4
197-Moore #81
285-Snyder #1
That is 8 top 11 recruits on 1 years team and that is more than Brands has recruited his entire time as HC of Iowa
PSU:
125:losing Suriano really stings
133:?
141?
149:Retherford #3
157:Nolf #4
165:Joseph #5
174:Hall #1
184:Nickal #7
197:McCutcheon #32
285:Nevills #5
With Suriano that would have been 7 top 7 recruits. Again, that is more than Brands has recruited all together. You can get away with a couple top 100 recruits, but you need a majority of top 10s to compete.
Well, as you know, there are lots of factors that go into recruiting. It's not just a matter of saying, "Well we won the last 3 titles, so of course all of the best talent will want to come here" (See PSU and Spencer Lee for an example).
Recruiting momentum is a real thing. Get it going, and its a juggernaut. Lose it, and it can take a while to get back. Penn State has it right now. We are building it right now.
I just don't think you can conclude Tom wasn't targeting the best P4P, simply because he didn't land them. I don't think his philosophy was ever, "Lets bring in a few mid-tier guys at each weight and see who emerges". I think he was left with that in certain instances.
#GoHawks!
Going 1 step further, here is OkStates recruit rankings(this team would win it all with their point potential in most years and they are probably looking at a distant 3rd place):
125-Piccininni #7
133-Brock #9
141-Heil #13
149-Martinez transfer AA(Boise St)
157-Smith #16
165-Rogers #13
174-Jacobe Smith 2x JuCo transfer
184-Moore #27/Marsden #65
197- Weigel #109
285-Anderson 1x JuCo transfer.
125-Piccininni #7
133-Brock #9
141-Heil #13
149-Martinez transfer AA(Boise St)
157-Smith #16
165-Rogers #13
174-Jacobe Smith 2x JuCo transfer
184-Moore #27/Marsden #65
197- Weigel #109
285-Anderson 1x JuCo transfer.
Tom believed in getting guys that wanted to come to Iowa and not really talking guys into it if that makes any sense. Also believed in getting a bang for the buck. Why get a #6 when you can get a #20 and #30 for the same price? Have 2 or 3 top tens and develop the rest. Worked 2008-2010.
But then Cael went to PSU. Started getting every elite PA guy along with out of state guys. If he had momentum with DT and Ruth, he is driving a Ferrari now. Looking at it, Tom had to change or resign himself to getting top five finishes. Even with recruiting success of last year and having four elite guys in 2019, it's still a long shot.
I agree with this entirely. But IowaFan's question is, is this verified anywhere by a quote by Tom saying, "Why get a #6 when you can get a #20 and #30 for the same price?" Or is it just based on observation of the fact that we landed an awful lot of guys ranked #20 and #30 and virtually no one ranked #6 until very recently? While Penn State did the opposite?
A telling quote from the article referenced above:
Penn State has revealed the title-winning blueprint, showing that nowadays it’s more important to have a handful of high-scoring stars than seven guys finishing between fourth and seventh (as Oklahoma State did this week in finishing third).
Yes. Exactly. It's easy to draw this conclusion based on the results, but it doesn't mean that was actually Tom's thought process. Maybe he missed on a couple top tens and ended up with a #20 and a #30.
Either way, I agree with you both, PSU has certainly changed the game with their recruiting momentum.
#GoHawks!
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From Andy Hamilton in USA Today April 21, 2016 (before Teasdale bailed):
<<On the surface, it seems Iowa’s approach to recruiting has changed. The Hawkeyes assembled top-ranked classes in 2010 and 2012, but those groups were built more with depth than the high-end stars that Sanderson constructed his championship teams around. Wednesday’s double-dip means Iowa will have a top-three overall recruit anchoring three consecutive classes: Marinelli in 2016, Lee in 2017 and Teasdale in 2018.
“I’m going to try to get my future team to be contenders, to be right there,” Lee said. “We have the ability. I think we’re going to be solid all around. We’ve got to get some more recruits.”>>
This seems pretty clear to me, unless you're looking for sworn testimony under oath.
Most folks get what's going on as far as the connection between getting some top tier (i.e. top 10 or 15 p4p) recruits every year and scoring in March. Spencer Lee seems to say it. No doubt Tom is on board with it as well.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/spor...g-bombshell-means-college-wrestling/83363472/
<<On the surface, it seems Iowa’s approach to recruiting has changed. The Hawkeyes assembled top-ranked classes in 2010 and 2012, but those groups were built more with depth than the high-end stars that Sanderson constructed his championship teams around. Wednesday’s double-dip means Iowa will have a top-three overall recruit anchoring three consecutive classes: Marinelli in 2016, Lee in 2017 and Teasdale in 2018.
“I’m going to try to get my future team to be contenders, to be right there,” Lee said. “We have the ability. I think we’re going to be solid all around. We’ve got to get some more recruits.”>>
This seems pretty clear to me, unless you're looking for sworn testimony under oath.
Most folks get what's going on as far as the connection between getting some top tier (i.e. top 10 or 15 p4p) recruits every year and scoring in March. Spencer Lee seems to say it. No doubt Tom is on board with it as well.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/spor...g-bombshell-means-college-wrestling/83363472/
LOL, nope, not looking for sworn testimony. I was just wondering if there is a quote from Tom Brands to the effect, "I used to pass on top tier recruits so I could get more lower level guys".
Yep. I'm right there with most folks in understanding the connection.
#GoHawks!
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More data for IowaFan...
From 2010-14, the number of top-10 P4P recruits landed by each team:
PSU: 9
Ohio St: 8
Cornell: 4
Illinois: 4
Okla St: 3
NW: 3
Iowa: 1
Number of recruits ranked #11-30 that each team landed:
PSU: 0
Ohio St: 3
Iowa: 9
The stats are consistent with the strategy of "more bang for the buck" articulated by Chief. They also clearly illustrate PSU's recruiting strategy.
Since 2015, we're keeping pace on top-10 talent with everyone except PSU (i.e. Kemerer, Marinelli, Lee, Warner).
From 2010-14, the number of top-10 P4P recruits landed by each team:
PSU: 9
Ohio St: 8
Cornell: 4
Illinois: 4
Okla St: 3
NW: 3
Iowa: 1
Number of recruits ranked #11-30 that each team landed:
PSU: 0
Ohio St: 3
Iowa: 9
The stats are consistent with the strategy of "more bang for the buck" articulated by Chief. They also clearly illustrate PSU's recruiting strategy.
Since 2015, we're keeping pace on top-10 talent with everyone except PSU (i.e. Kemerer, Marinelli, Lee, Warner).
Landing only one top ten kid in five years would seem to indicate that either TNT couldn't land top recruits or didn't make that a priority.
I find it difficult to believe there was only one top ten stud out of 50 that would agree to wrestle for the Hawks.
I find it difficult to believe there was only one top ten stud out of 50 that would agree to wrestle for the Hawks.
But it is obviously also because they are successful. If they weren't successful at getting those top tens, those numbers would change. That goes right back to the chicken/egg discussion, is this some innovative strategy, or has Cael just found the magic?
It's about the $$$'s and how they are allocated and dispersed. Something changed at Iowa whether it was mentioned by Tom or not. When did m* arrive?
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