NCAA tournament officiating

[SSG T]

They reviewed to see if he was outside the arc? Bohannon was 30’ away from them basket. If they were reviewing where his feet were, then the refs were worse than I imagined.

That or the clock was the only thing they could have reviewed. Whether it was a foul or not is not reviewable.

 

[ZumaHawk]

I'm a Hawkeye Homer thru n thru but to sit here and say the refs don't favor one player/team is just not right. They totally do. Heck look when JBo pushed the guy twice with 2 hands trying to set a screen on him. No foul called and that is favoring JBo. But as 3 officials are watching this take place how can 1 of them not call that on JBo? That was as obvious as the day is long.

 

[HaydenHawk8]

Would you accept a 90+% correct call rate? Because over the last 5-6 years the officiating in the tournament has actually increased YOY and was above 90% last year.

Just being consistent at both ends of the floor. There are times where 1 team would be at 6 fouls vs 1. Also calling a foul when it needs to be called, instead of waiting until after the shot is good/no good. The current group of officials I will say are not that bad, but they are getting worse. They make a call and now it has to be reviewed everytime. Just stick with it, they are looking to be “bailed out” by the monitor as opposed to sticking with their call.

Carstensen/Rastatter/Boroski/Olgesby are all good officials. There are a few other guys I can’t recall their names.

Larry scoratto, Ted valentine, and McJunkins are guys that should not be in any post season.

 

[Hawk24]

I've come to the conclusion that basketball officiating is all pretty random. A foul in the first minute is not always a foul in he last minute. One hand check or arm bar is called but many others are not. Sometimes offensive fouls get called when a player lowers a shoulder to initiate contact, other times not so much. Scrum on the floor for the ball? Sometimes they'll pick out a random player and call a foul when 4 or 5 could get called. Other times....let 'em play! And traveling? What's traveling?

 

[ThrowBones92]

Just being consistent at both ends of the floor. There are times where 1 team would be at 6 fouls vs 1. Also calling a foul when it needs to be called, instead of waiting until after the shot is good/no good. The current group of officials I will say are not that bad, but they are getting worse. They make a call and now it has to be reviewed everytime. Just stick with it, they are looking to be “bailed out” by the monitor as opposed to sticking with their call.

Carstensen/Rastatter/Boroski/Olgesby are all good officials. There are a few other guys I can’t recall their names.

Larry scoratto, Ted valentine, and McJunkins are guys that should not be in any post season.

I will think your list is pretty good, but I would swap Boroski for Scirotto. Scirotto is a much better and more disciplined referee than Boroski. Just my take.
Consistent calls and disparate foul counts can exists in the same game if they differences in style of play cause it to be so. But I understand what you're saying. Perfect consistency is a moving target, especially in the eyes of fans. But it's the goal, and it's not always easy because no two plays are exact the same on opposite ends of the floor, you know?
Late whistles are generally not a bad thing. Usually it doesn't have as much to do with the basket being good or no good as it does with seeing the consequence of the contact. Sometime its difficult to judge whether the contact truly impacted the shooter enough to cause him to miss the shot until you see how the shot gets out of the shooter's hand. Add in processing time on what you see, and you get "late" whistles, which bother fans, but what fans should appreciate is that the official isn't simply reacting to the play. He's seeing start, develop and finish of the play and then making a decision based on all the information. That requires a patient whistle and having the discipline to not guess.

 

[ThrowBones92]

I'm a Hawkeye Homer thru n thru but to sit here and say the refs don't favor one player/team is just not right. They totally do. Heck look when JBo pushed the guy twice with 2 hands trying to set a screen on him. No foul called and that is favoring JBo. But as 3 officials are watching this take place how can 1 of them not call that on JBo? That was as obvious as the day is long.

Do you think three officials are watching one player on the court set a screen?

That's part of the incorrect assumption: three referees rarely overlap coverages throughout the course of the game. Some screens require multiple officials to referee it, so you'll have some help on those. I'd be interested in seeing the two handed push you're referencing. Sometimes things look illegal but the contact doesn't rise to the level of illegality. But it also could be missed calls. It's hard to agree or disagree without seeing the play.

 

[HaydenHawk8]

I will think your list is pretty good, but I would swap Boroski for Scirotto. Scirotto is a much better and more disciplined referee than Boroski. Just my take.
Consistent calls and disparate foul counts can exists in the same game if they differences in style of play cause it to be so. But I understand what you're saying. Perfect consistency is a moving target, especially in the eyes of fans. But it's the goal, and it's not always easy because no two plays are exact the same on opposite ends of the floor, you know?
Late whistles are generally not a bad thing. Usually it doesn't have as much to do with the basket being good or no good as it does with seeing the consequence of the contact. Sometime its difficult to judge whether the contact truly impacted the shooter enough to cause him to miss the shot until you see how the shot gets out of the shooter's hand. Add in processing time on what you see, and you get "late" whistles, which bother fans, but what fans should appreciate is that the official isn't simply reacting to the play. He's seeing start, develop and finish of the play and then making a decision based on all the information. That requires a patient whistle and having the discipline to not guess.

The other big issue is fishing (calling stuff) not in your zone. I don’t know how they are trained but at the lower levels your taught not to fish in another mans pond. Even if you have a view of something, if it’s in their area let them call it. I’ve made that mistake before and gotten my @ss chewed because of it.

I witnessed a lot of fishing in other guys ponds last weekend. Guys way out of the way or trilailing the play blowing their whistles when another official is right there on top of the action.

 

[walleye hunter16]

There is a lot more involved in legally blocked shots than defenders jumping vertically. This is the type of thing where the common fan doesn't know the actual rules and criteria that are used to evaluate plays. They think plays are inconsistent when, many times, they just don't realize that there can be incidental body contact or even some arm contact allowed if the ball is blocked before the other contact occurs.
Of course referees misjudge these plays from time to time. It's a hard play to get right, especially if you lose discipline and blow your whistle on a closed look or if you don't trust your partner to see the angle of the play you aren't able to see. But many times referee judgments on blocked shots are correct and fans think it's wrong. That's not inconsistent officiating, it's fans not knowing the criteria referees are basing their decisions on.

See this is exactly the problem.
Officials are taught to have determine judgements on way too many things that are pretty much a blur to decide. Don't make the game harder to officiate than it already is. The no charge arc is part of that.
Read the book, follow the book, have one official on the review screen every moment of the game and that person is the lead that can get through the review crap much faster and communicate via ear pieces to speed up things.
When the NCAA has spent 3 yrs having the game call the way it should be then we will not be having as many foul shots because the players and coaches will have it figured out and coached properly.
Good athletes will always have some natural advantage but they don't get to add knocking the opponents out of their position and doubling down on their advantage.

 

[ZumaHawk]

Do you think three officials are watching one player on the court set a screen?

That's part of the incorrect assumption: three referees rarely overlap coverages throughout the course of the game. Some screens require multiple officials to referee it, so you'll have some help on those. I'd be interested in seeing the two handed push you're referencing. Sometimes things look illegal but the contact doesn't rise to the level of illegality. But it also could be missed calls. It's hard to agree or disagree without seeing the play.

Did you watch the game????? Top of the key! Listen I’m a homer but this was obvious! By you arguing this tells me you didn’t watch the game but yet are ready to argue!!! If you did watch you are blind. Twice not once and then the double foul was called! Also, EVERY game a ref will call a foul from at least 50 feet from the play. Am I right? And please answer whether you watched or not!!!

 

[ThrowBones92]

Did you watch the game????? Top of the key! Listen I’m a homer but this was obvious! By you arguing this tells me you didn’t watch the game but yet are ready to argue!!! If you did watch you are blind. Twice not once and then the double foul was called! Also, EVERY game a ref will call a foul from at least 50 feet from the play. Am I right? And please answer whether you watched or not!!!

I watched the game and the play. The secondary official came and got the call. Trail official was all over it. If two referees are looking at two players, that leaves 8 players for one official. Not good.

 

[IowaHawkeyeFBnBB4Life]

I watched the game and the play. The secondary official came and got the call, didn’t need to be looking there. Trail official was all over it. If two referees are looking at two players, that leaves 8 players for one official. Not good.

This discussion is reserved for fans of teams that have been in the round of 32. So any fan of any power school except Nebraska May participate.

 

[kwicasso]

Zion has been plastered everywhere. It does the NCAA ZERO good if Duke were to be sent home early. The last three minutes of that game reeked of something fishy.

 

[ZumaHawk]

I watched the game and the play. The secondary official came and got the call, didn’t need to be looking there. Trail official was all over it. If two referees are looking at two players, that leaves 8 players for one official. Not good.

Thanks for answering!!! So, the official who should have made the call and didn’t.....was being lazy or what? I enjoyed it actually but it was horribly handled by the officials!!!!! To the point of totally unbelievable!!

 

[papabeef]

Officials definitely can decide games, and do.

I could list examples from Iowa and/or ISU games, but that might start a fight. Look instead at the end of the Duke game. The stars of each team have four fouls each andn collide; refs call a block instead of a charge, on what seems like an obvious charge, Later, Duke player obviously hooks and holds to get a rebound and put back the winning points.

Granted, UCF had two heartbreak misses after that, a shot and a tip, so they still could have won the game. But give me a break.

you have got to be kidding , that was not even close to being a charge the big guy was in the circle and he never got to a set position . wow

 

[papabeef]

I think the replays tend to support the officials more often than not. They certainly show how an error can be made, most of the time. But sometimes there's just no excuse. It's too bad there's nothing that can be done.

And sometimes the rule, itself, is a problem.

Some of you guys know about this, so I'm sorry to beat the dead horse, but it was a really unbelievable situation a few years ago at Kansas. Jared Homan of ISU was fouled while shooting and put on the line for two. He missed the first, a KU guy rebounded, threw it to another KU guy, who threw in a long trey. Officials stopped the game and put Homan back at the line for his second shot.....but the three points stayed on the board. As was what the rule called for. Cyclones lost in overtime.

Somehow, none of the three officials, nor the bench official, stopped play before the shot, so it had to count.

i think i am going to call BS on your claim, i need you to give me more proof . this falls under the correctable error rule and since they put the guy back on the line to shoot the 2nd the 3 pter would be wiped out .

 

[stillh8unlv]

Lol there was no shove off. The tape doesn't like. Cry to people who are to dumb to look at the tape. Because the tape doesn't support anything you're saying.

No shove off? Tape doesn't lie?

Damn right it doesn't....watch this at about the 1:13 mark....clear as day push, Dawkins was begging the refs for the call. He didn't just jump 5 feet to the right because he felt like it.

Trying to explain physics to a Fusker, may as well be talking to a fence post.

 

[papabeef]

They did, that's why it isn't ever called

you all gotta remember hand checking and hand touching are two different things .

 

[papabeef]

I think the replays tend to support the officials more often than not. They certainly show how an error can be made, most of the time. But sometimes there's just no excuse. It's too bad there's nothing that can be done.

And sometimes the rule, itself, is a problem.

Some of you guys know about this, so I'm sorry to beat the dead horse, but it was a really unbelievable situation a few years ago at Kansas. Jared Homan of ISU was fouled while shooting and put on the line for two. He missed the first, a KU guy rebounded, threw it to another KU guy, who threw in a long trey. Officials stopped the game and put Homan back at the line for his second shot.....but the three points stayed on the board. As was what the rule called for. Cyclones lost in overtime.

Somehow, none of the three officials, nor the bench official, stopped play before the shot, so it had to count.

i take back my BS statement . i found your example on a kansas website , feb 22 2004 and the officials totally screwed up the call because no deadball ever occurred . homan missed a free throw , padgett got the rebound threw it down the floor and a team mate sank a 3 , homan held up 2 fingers signaling that he should have got 2 shots and refs blew their whistles . had an iowa st player threw the ball in to a team mate it would have been to late to change it , as screwy as that sounds . since the ball was never in bounded a dead ball never occurred and the 3 pter should have been taken away . pretty sure i am right .

 

[ThrowBones92]

No shove off? Tape doesn't lie?

Damn right it doesn't....watch this at about the 1:13 mark....clear as day push, Dawkins was begging the refs for the call. He didn't just jump 5 feet to the right because he felt like it.

Trying to explain physics to a Fusker, may as well be talking to a fence post.

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This is hilarious. Do you see the Duke players arm ever extend once he places it on the UCF player's back? No. It doesn't, and that take shows it. Rather than just go on what you think is right, why don't you ask a referee with some experience in college basketball whether that is a foul that should be called?

The kids first step is forward, space is created before any slight contact occurs. He's already not boxed out. Now you're going to reward him for what, exactly? Is there a little bump? Maybe. Is that a foul? Absolutely not. If you want that and anything like it called a foul, college basketball will turn into a miserable experience. Get over it. The kid didn't box out like he should have and instead steps to the basket. He boxes out, we aren't having this conversation.

 

[ThrowBones92]

you all gotta remember hand checking and hand touching are two different things .

Correct. Freedom of movement has to be interrupted (rhythm, speed, balance or quickness) before it should be called a foul.

 

[ThrowBones92]

Thanks for answering!!! So, the official who should have made the call and didn’t.....was being lazy or what? I enjoyed it actually but it was horribly handled by the officials!!!!! To the point of totally unbelievable!!

The official who refereed the play ruled that it was a tipped shot (although he used an unauthorized mechanic), andtherefore had no whistle for a foul. I'm not sure what you're asking about him being lazy.
Then the secondary official, who was looking at the play, hit his whistle. For what reason we don't know exactly because he didn't post a foul when he blew his whistle, but I tend to believe he thought the shooter was fouled, otherwise he wouldn't have reported a foul to the table.
One thing to remember, while referees generally need to have the discipline to referee their own primary coverage area, there are areas of intersection where primary coverage areas converge. Just staring into your space isn't the right way to officiate. At the top of the key, the lane line closest to the referee who stands at the free throw line extended all the way to the half court line is where the PCAs intersect. So, there will be overlap. And, actually, the area between the two FT lane lines all the way to half court is an area of intersection where you have dual coverage responsibility by the referees at the FT line extended and 28' line.

Bottom line: if you come from that distance to get a foul, you have to throw a strike. He didn't throw a strike.

 

[ThrowBones92]

See this is exactly the problem.
Officials are taught to have determine judgements on way too many things that are pretty much a blur to decide. Don't make the game harder to officiate than it already is. The no charge arc is part of that.
Read the book, follow the book, have one official on the review screen every moment of the game and that person is the lead that can get through the review crap much faster and communicate via ear pieces to speed up things.
When the NCAA has spent 3 yrs having the game call the way it should be then we will not be having as many foul shots because the players and coaches will have it figured out and coached properly.
Good athletes will always have some natural advantage but they don't get to add knocking the opponents out of their position and doubling down on their advantage.

Have you ever sat in on referee training?

 

[83Hawk]

I'm a Hawkeye Homer thru n thru but to sit here and say the refs don't favor one player/team is just not right. They totally do. Heck look when JBo pushed the guy twice with 2 hands trying to set a screen on him. No foul called and that is favoring JBo. But as 3 officials are watching this take place how can 1 of them not call that on JBo? That was as obvious as the day is long.

On one of Bohannon’s game winning 3’s he clearly pushed off with his forearm....should have been called but wasn’t.

That being said.....yes, it is obvious officials call things differently for different teams. Some are allowed to be more physical....while the other team gets called for fouls for doing the same thing. Officials favor the blue bloods, especially in the tournament. They also call fouls differently in the game. What is a foul in the first minute is not a foul in the last minute.

Officials need to be more consistent. Call it the same both ways. I don’t care if Izzo has been to x number of final fours....his team shouldn’t get to play by a different set of rules.

 

[Ihawkhoops]

Agree that officiating in general is horrible. It's like the game is called inside out now. Back when teams had legit post players they could back guys down, clear out, etc., with few offensive calls made. Now that it is a guard-oriented game the hand checking, grabbing, holding, etc.,rarely elicits a whistle but slide two inches on a screen or breathe on a 3-point shooter and it's a foul. Flopping for charge calls has been replaced with 3-point shooters sensationalizing contact and throwing their arms up and falling to the court trying to bait refs into making calls. I am not an advocate of more reviews but far too many guys getting to the line for phantom fouls.

 

[Greenway12]

No shove off? Tape doesn't lie?

Damn right it doesn't....watch this at about the 1:13 mark....clear as day push, Dawkins was begging the refs for the call. He didn't just jump 5 feet to the right because he felt like it.

Trying to explain physics to a Fusker, may as well be talking to a fence post.

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This. And RJ did extend his arm. It was a clear shove in the back. You can argue that it should have been a better box out, but he got pushed.

 

[ThrowBones92]

This. And RJ did extend his arm. It was a clear shove in the back. You can argue that it should have been a better box out, but he got pushed.

Show me the video of his arm extension. He placed his hand on his back. Arm doesn't straighten. You're brain is convincing you to see something that isn't there. Again, marginal contact, and it's not getting called at that point or any other in the game.

 

[ZumaHawk]

To be clear with my comment......I'm talking about when JoBo was on defense and clearly pushed the guy out of the way twice. with both hands. Then the official called a double foul. It was horrendous ! Evidently with all the explanations you aren't remembering this particular play. I wished I could put it up on here. If somebody who is a guru can that would be greatly appreciated.

 

[papabeef]

On one of Bohannon’s game winning 3’s he clearly pushed off with his forearm....should have been called but wasn’t.

That being said.....yes, it is obvious officials call things differently for different teams. Some are allowed to be more physical....while the other team gets called for fouls for doing the same thing. Officials favor the blue bloods, especially in the tournament. They also call fouls differently in the game. What is a foul in the first minute is not a foul in the last minute.

Officials need to be more consistent. Call it the same both ways. I don’t care if Izzo has been to x number of final fours....his team shouldn’t get to play by a different set of rules.

sorry guys officials dont give a shit who wins . the better teams seem to get the breaks because they have better athletes .

 

[papabeef]

To be clear with my comment......I'm talking about when JoBo was on defense and clearly pushed the guy out of the way twice. with both hands. Then the official called a double foul. It was horrendous ! Evidently with all the explanations you aren't remembering this particular play. I wished I could put it up on here. If somebody who is a guru can that would be greatly appreciated.

you are right the double foul was ridiculous .

 

[papabeef]

Agree that officiating in general is horrible. It's like the game is called inside out now. Back when teams had legit post players they could back guys down, clear out, etc., with few offensive calls made. Now that it is a guard-oriented game the hand checking, grabbing, holding, etc.,rarely elicits a whistle but slide two inches on a screen or breathe on a 3-point shooter and it's a foul. Flopping for charge calls has been replaced with 3-point shooters sensationalizing contact and throwing their arms up and falling to the court trying to bait refs into making calls. I am not an advocate of more reviews but far too many guys getting to the line for phantom fouls.

have you ever officiated ? thats what i thought .