**** Official Israel War thread****

[GlenHawk]

What you don’t appreciate is that between the Koran & Hadith's, Islam believes that one day the entire world will submit to Islam. Israel is simply a thorn in this master plan.

From the Islamic point of view, all of the world is denominated between muslims lands/countries and non-muslim lands/countries.

This is a perpetual eternal existential prophecy / prediction. Israel existing conflicts with this prophecy.

This is why I've said countless times that even though you can find plenty of reasons to condemn both sides, one side is inherently better than the other when it comes to valuing human life and the overall betterment of the world.

It's wild that so many people refuse to admit that.

 

[OhAdam]

No I'm not. There's no way you have any empathy for that person. You might be telling yourself that because you want to think you're not at the level of the people who killed Jews, but let's be honest, you hate Israel and you want it removed and with every Israeli death you're that much closer to your goal.

This reeeeeks of projection. Reeks of it.

 

[ISUBryceC]

It was not Israel's land first.

They lack resources because they live in an apartheid state and all of their resources are controlled by Israel.

This is 100% false. They have spent billions in aid resources to build their well supplied tunnel network to wage war on Israel.

For the record I'm against this ground invasion. I think it was a bad idea. But there are some things at play here:

1. I'd like a two state solution. Israel needs to be able to live with it's neighbors.
2. Israel cannot be expected to make peace with jihadists. Now this is different than the normal Arabs who live in the area who just want to go on with life. Hamas must be eliminated in order to move ahead especially after Oct. 7th.

For the record I would have liked them to create humanitarian corridors and just attempted to starve out the Hamas people in the caves.

 

[WestCoastHawkI]

This is 100% false. They have spent billions in aid resources to build their well supplied tunnel network to wage war on Israel.

For the record I'm against this ground invasion. I think it was a bad idea. But there are some things at play here:

1. I'd like a two state solution. Israel needs to be able to live with it's neighbors.
2. Israel cannot be expected to make peace with jihadists. Now this is different than the normal Arabs who live in the area who just want to go on with life. Hamas must be eliminated in order to move ahead especially after Oct. 7th.

For the record I would have liked them to create humanitarian corridors and just attempted to starve out the Hamas people in the caves.

Israel’s occupation of Palestinian Territory is ‘apartheid’: UN rights expert

Calling on the international community to accept and adopt the recent findings in his report, an independent human rights expert said on Friday that “apartheid is being practiced by Israel in the occupied Palestinian territory”.

news.un.org

100% false? It's common knowledge.

 

[ISUBryceC]

I don't support an Israeli state. They're occupiers. You can't help but conflate Israel, Israelis and Jews. They are not the same.

This is always extremely easy to say about other people.

Technically unless you're a Native American, we're all occupiers here. Maybe I'm wrong but I'm guessing there have been exactly zero people give their house to first nations people in history.

 

[OhAdam]

Another good interview:

 

[OhAdam]

Oh look, even after he got schooled yesterday, he's still trying to use the word genocide lol.

I brought this up yesterday and you didn't respond. Here is the UN definition you keep talking about:

The definition contained in Article II of the Convention describes genocide as a crime committed with the intent to destroy a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, in whole or in part. It does not include political groups or so called “cultural genocide”.​

​

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/Genocide%20Convention-FactSheet-ENG.pdf

​

​

I am going to ask again, is this really what you think is happening in Palestine? You do understand that if Israel wanted to wipe out the Palestinians, they could have done it decades ago, right?

Again, I suggest you read up on Rwanda and the Sudan if you want to see what genocide actually looks like.

Yep, Israel has, by definition, committed and is committing genocide. Not all genocide looks the same. Thanks for acknowledging that by bringing up Sudan.

I love how you, with such gleeful exuberance, claim victory, though!

I’m not monitoring this as closely as you, apparently. I do congratulate you for that.

The interview I posted featuring Ta-Nehisi Coates summarizes pretty well where I stand.

 

[GlenHawk]

When you put everything into perspective, the Jewish people only make up about 0.02% of the world's population, so roughly only 16 million out of 8 billion people. They've had to fight off extinction for thousands of years. Generation after generation of homeless Jews spent their entire lives simply fighting for their existence.

They finally had an opportunity to migrate home and rebuild their Jewish state in the land their people had occupied since 1,000 BC, the only one in the entire world, and we have people here kicking and screaming saying they don't have a right to a home. We have a poster actually suggesting that we ship them off to other parts of the world, which is exactly what's happened to them for thousands of years.

On October 7th, Israel was INVADED by nearly 3,000 terrorists with clear orders to murder, slaughter, rape, torture, and kidnap as many people as they possibly can. It was the worst massacre of Jews since the Holocaust.

“Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it.”

 

[ZachJump]

Israel’s occupation of Palestinian Territory is ‘apartheid’: UN rights expert

Calling on the international community to accept and adopt the recent findings in his report, an independent human rights expert said on Friday that “apartheid is being practiced by Israel in the occupied Palestinian territory”.

news.un.org

100% false? It's common knowledge.

So one person's opinion posted on the UN site makes it gospel.

One person who has always had strong anti Israel sentiments and has called for economic sanctions against Israel in the past is far from impartial.

 

[pablow]

Wrong. If you believe if fairy tale books. God exiled Jews from the land occupied by Israel today. They are not allowed to return. The people that believe they have some religious right to this land and created Israel are called zionists which is a subsect of Judaism. Not all Jews believe in it especially those that follow the Torah as it's written.

If it were up to me all religions would be banned. They're all trash and attract a lot of crazy people that end up causing problems.

The Jewish state was created due to pressures from the political Zionists who were (and are) a predominately secular nationalist movement. The religious Zionists were Orthodox Jews, nutty ones at that, that did not (and do not) enjoy much support among Jews. These Zionists did not create the state of Israel.

 

[GlenHawk]

Yep, Israel has, by definition, committed and is committing genocide. Not all genocide looks the same. Thanks for acknowledging that by bringing up Sudan.

I love how you, with such gleeful exuberance, claim victory, though!

I’m not monitoring this as closely as you, apparently. I do congratulate you for that.

The interview I posted featuring Ta-Nehisi Coates summarizes pretty well where I stand.

Lol dude, I just pasted and linked the UN's definition of genocide that YOU brought up. Can you link us to an article where the UN accuses Israel of decades of genocide on Palestine?

 

[GlenHawk]

So one person's opinion posted on the UN site makes it gospel.

One person who has always had strong anti Israel sentiments and has called for economic sanctions against Israel in the past is far from impartial.

Right. He takes one person's opinion and applies it to the entire UN lol.

This would be like someone claiming the entire United States aligns with every stupid thing Marjorie Taylor Greene says.

 

[Gus is dead]

I have not. Stop conflating Israel and Israelis.

But getting rid of the state of Israel amounts the getting rid of Jews. No shared state in the area of Israel results in a shared existence. It results in the extermination of Jews. If you have any doubt just listen for 1/2 of a second to those that currently lead Hamas/ Hezbollah / Islamic Jihad / PA.

Your dream of a peaceful co existence in a shared state isn’t reality. You see Palestinians how you wish them to be not as they are.

A 2 state solution is viable. Hamas needs to surrender. They need to turn over all hostages. They need to face war crimes trials and the peaceful Palestinians need to establish a legitimate government that acknowledges that right of Israel to exist. That is the route to peace. Once the Palestinians act like they are capable of rule they can do so in peace.

 

[SB_SB]

There is something wrong with you if you think any death of a Palestinian is worth less than any death of an Israeli. I have a feeling you are Islamophobic and potentially racist.

it's a matter of priority. Israeli lives are more important. If Palestinians want to save their lives, they'll give back the hostages and surrender.

 

[GlenHawk]

it's a matter of priority. Israeli lives are more important. If Palestinians want to save their lives, they'll give back the hostages and surrender.

I can't believe it's so hard for some to grasp that a nation would prioritize its own citizens' lives and well-being above everything else. That's exactly what you should want your country to do.

 

[OhAdam]

When you put everything into perspective, the Jewish people only make up about 0.02% of the world's population, so roughly only 16 million out of 8 billion people. They've had to fight off extinction for thousands of years. Generation after generation of homeless Jews spent their entire lives simply fighting for their existence.

They finally had an opportunity to migrate home and rebuild their Jewish state in the land their people had occupied since 1,000 BC, the only one in the entire world, and we have people here kicking and screaming saying they don't have a right to a home. We have a poster actually suggesting that we ship them off to other parts of the world, which is exactly what's happened to them for thousands of years.

On October 7th, Israel was INVADED by nearly 3,000 terrorists with clear orders to murder, slaughter, rape, torture, and kidnap as many people as they possibly can. It was the worst massacre of Jews since the Holocaust.

“Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it.”

Rich irony, here. How easily you and others dismiss the thousands of JEWISH voices calling for the state of Israel to stop doing the very doomed-history-repeating you and others appear so fully committed to willfully ignore.

Different lives valued differently.

 

[luvmyhawks]

Help me out here, based on your other post to me, when you say "Israel" should leave, are you saying only Israel the country and all the Israeli's should stay? Because you've already said that its a stretch to conflate israel with Israelis.

Boy, your hatred toward Israel/Israelis/Jews is really starting to come out.

Starting? It has been out in the open since I called him/her/them out for it about 30 pages ago.

 

[SA_Hawk]

It was not Israel's land first.

They lack resources because they live in an apartheid state and all of their resources are controlled by Israel.

Most of their resources go to funding people who kill and rape women.

 

[OhAdam]

I can't believe it's so hard for some to grasp that a nation would prioritize its own citizens' lives and well-being above everything else. That's exactly what you should want your country to do.

Interesting. You just described the mindlessness always used in defense of every shitty expression of hegemony throughout our ill-fated human history.

Lot of scholars of this type of shit, including Jewish scholars, are speaking to how this continued genocidal decimation and displacement of these people is short-sighted at best. The next Hamas is forming, and will be worse. And is likely to be much larger in scale and have more backing.

We’ll see, but the concern is valid.

 

[GlenHawk]

Rich irony, here. How easily you and others dismiss the thousands of JEWISH voices calling for the state of Israel to stop doing the very doomed-history-repeating you and others appear so fully committed to willfully ignore.

Different lives valued differently.

For the umpteenth time, nobody here is dismissing Israel's past. They've had their fair share of wrongdoing, but every single country or state since the beginning of time has made mistakes. Try to focus on the now and the overall end goal of both sides.

On top of genocide, you also clearly don't know what the word irony means lol.

 

[Chuck C]

Umm no, the Romans, led by General Pompey, exiled the Jews in 20 AD, about 600 years before the pedophile prophet founded his religion of peace. They were forced to leave their homes and migrate to Russia and other parts of Eastern Europe, where they were also treated like shit for generations and killed for simply existing.

I know Pompey was a great general, but to exile the Jews almost 70 years after his death is quite impressive.

 

[OhAdam]

For the umpteenth time, nobody here is dismissing Israel's past. They've had their fair share of wrongdoing, but every single country or state since the beginning of time has made mistakes. Try to focus on the now and the overall end goal of both sides.

On top of genocide, you also clearly don't know what the word irony means lol.

This is how the word irony gets used in HROT, since forever, and you know it.

Your insistence on denying the meaning of genocide as internationally defined is weird.

For your argument to hold any water, you have to conflate Palestinians with Hamas. Which is, of course, bullshit.

Lastly… arguably, while it may not exist in some written text, it is the state of Israel that is carrying out a desire inversely equivalent to that which you’re implicitly referencing. They’ve had a chokehold on these people — Palestinians — for several decades. The chokehold, itself, is arguably genocidal. It is undeniably apartheid. But now? This “war” is by-definition undisputedly by-definition genocide.

Again, the Coates interview is where I stand.

You can have the last word. This is clearly pointless.

People avoid responding to the Coates interview. People avoid responding to other content I’ve provided that runs counter to the popular coverage to which we’re subjected in this country.

Again, different lives valued differently.

Carry on, HROT.

 

[GlenHawk]

I know Pompey was a great general, but to exile the Jews almost 70 years after his death is quite impressive.

Sorry, you're right. The siege of Jerusalem took place in 63 BC and was led by Pompey. The Jews were exiled from Jerusalem in 20 AD during the reign of Claudius.

Thanks for calling that out.

 

[GlenHawk]

This is how the word irony gets used in HROT, since forever, and you know it.

Your insistence on denying the meaning of genocide as internationally defined is weird.

For your argument to hold any water, you have to conflate Palestinians with Hamas. Which is, of course, bullshit.

Lastly… arguably, while it may not exist in some written text, it is the state of Israel that is carrying out a desire inversely equivalent to that which you’re implicitly referencing. They’ve had a chokehold on these people — Palestinians — for several decades. The chokehold, itself, is arguably genocidal. It is undeniably apartheid. But now? This “war” is by-definition undisputedly by-definition genocide.

Again, the Coates interview is where I stand.

You can have the last word. This is clearly pointless.

People avoid responding to the Coates interview. People avoid responding to other content I’ve provided that runs counter to the popular coverage to which we’re subjected in this country.

Again, different lives valued differently.

Carry on, HROT.

How would you know that when your account was only created 6 weeks ago?

You also keep giving us the same bullshit opinions but you never provide any legitimate resources to back them up. I've asked you a half dozen times to link us to an article or a video and you continue to ignore it. Almost like you know there's nothing solid out there to validate your lazy, antisemitic takes.

Finally, since you're clearly communicating from a burner account, I am going to put you on ignore now. Feel free to come at me with your real account if you want to continue debating.

 

[hawkeyetraveler]

It was not Israel's land first.

They lack resources because they live in an apartheid state and all of their resources are controlled by Israel.

It was a Jewish state far before it was a Palestinian state. Like thousands of years before. But yes, before it was Israel it was Canaan. Of course you know who the descendants of Canaan are?

The people of Israel.

I helpfully explained all of this for you earlier today, but you have refused to engage on it. You remind me of comrade Nat with your stubborn inclination to rewrite history,

 

[Gus is dead]

Rich irony, here. How easily you and others dismiss the thousands of JEWISH voices calling for the state of Israel to stop doing the very doomed-history-repeating you and others appear so fully committed to willfully ignore.

Different lives valued differently.

Because these are secular Jews not living in Israel. This isn’t hard.

 

[ISUBryceC]

Israel’s occupation of Palestinian Territory is ‘apartheid’: UN rights expert

Calling on the international community to accept and adopt the recent findings in his report, an independent human rights expert said on Friday that “apartheid is being practiced by Israel in the occupied Palestinian territory”.

news.un.org

100% false? It's common knowledge.

Honestly, my bad I should have been more clear.

The reason why Gazan citizens right now have no food and water is because Hamas has horded it in their underground network to support a war they wanted. Hamas could surrender, deliver the food, and humanitarian aid would pour in to Gaza. They won't do that, so here we are.

In recent times the living conditions in Gaza are unacceptable. I agree that is a failing on their part, and the aggressive expansion of settlement is just stupid. I disagree with Netanyahu's leadership in these cases to a very high degree.

I said it earlier in this thread but I don't support this ground war. I think it's a bad idea. But if we're being honest with ourselves, there was going to be some response to the Oct 7th attacks. Nobody was going to be happy with whatever the response was, that's just the truth.

As far as if Israel should or should not exist, honestly that just doesn't matter. Israel does exist. It is going to exist whether people like it or not.

 

[ISUBryceC]

This “war” is by-definition undisputedly by-definition genocide.

No, it's not.

 

[SB_SB]

I can't believe it's so hard for some to grasp that a nation would prioritize its own citizens' lives and well-being above everything else. That's exactly what you should want your country to do.

Especially when the other people are terrorists.

 

[seminole97]

Lol dude, I just pasted and linked the UN's definition of genocide that YOU brought up. Can you link us to an article where the UN accuses Israel of decades of genocide on Palestine?

ADL says Israel isn’t committing genocide.
Who could have guessed?

Published: 10.25.2023

In the heightened rhetoric of the present day, Israel is sometimes accused of committing acts of “genocide” against the Palestinians. Genocide is a legal term, and in no way do Israeli policies and actions meet this legal threshold. Rather, the sensationalist use of the term genocide in relation to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is not only inaccurate and misleading, but it serves to demonize the State of Israel and to diminish recognized acts of genocide.

 

[GlenHawk]

Honestly, my bad I should have been more clear.

The reason why Gazan citizens right now have no food and water is because Hamas has horded it in their underground network to support a war they wanted. Hamas could surrender, deliver the food, and humanitarian aid would pour in to Gaza. They won't do that, so here we are.

In recent times the living conditions in Gaza are unacceptable. I agree that is a failing on their part, and the aggressive expansion of settlement is just stupid. I disagree with Netanyahu's leadership in these cases to a very high degree.

I said it earlier in this thread but I don't support this ground war. I think it's a bad idea. But if we're being honest with ourselves, there was going to be some response to the Oct 7th attacks. Nobody was going to be happy with whatever the response was, that's just the truth.

As far as if Israel should or should not exist, honestly that just doesn't matter. Israel does exist. It is going to exist whether people like it or not.

On top of the food and water that Hamas is withholding from the citizens of Palestine, they're also hoarding fuel for rockets and electricity/ventilation for their underground tunnel systems. All while the hospitals in Gaza are running low:



They're also preventing injured Palestinians from evacuating south to Egypt while blaming it on Israel and prioritizing their fighters first:

The United Nations said no foreigners, dual-nationals or injured Palestinians were able to leave the Gaza Strip over the weekend and it's unclear whether they’ll be able to anytime soon. The development came after Hamas accused Israel of endangering a deal that allowed some to get out of the besieged territory....​

The arrangement between Israel, Egypt and Hamas allowing injured civilians as well as foreigners and Palestinians with foreign passports to leave Gaza was a rare instance of diplomatic progress since the conflict started. More than 1,100 people reportedly passed through the Rafah crossing to Egypt Nov. 2 and 3, the UN said.​

​

Hamas originally put forward a list of names for evacuation to Egypt that included many of its fighters, a US official said. After the US pushed back, the militant group withdrew those names, the official said.​

​

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

www.bloomberg.com

​

If a two-state solution is ever going to be accomplished, Hamas needs to be wiped out, but the Palestinian people also have to want that outcome as well—no more 'From the river to the sea' BS. Until the majority is ready to stand up and help overthrow their terrorist leadership, I sadly don't see any sort of peaceful outcome in the near term.

 

[seminole97]

Especially when the other people are terrorists.

I think many people can sympathize with a violent response to profound mistreatment, but when the response is to parachute into a rave and kill kids you lose a lot of potential sympathizers.
Clearly not all, but a lot.

 

[Phenomenally Frantastic]

Another good interview:

View embedded media

Great interview!

The account of a peaceful kind generous Jewish man who even helped Palestinians that was senselessly murdered by Hamas terrorists.

Great stuff, thanks???

 

[ZachJump]

Interesting. You just described the mindlessness always used in defense of every shitty expression of hegemony throughout our ill-fated human history.

Ever notice we really have not won wars since the media started reporting what happens in war in more detail?

If we had today's media during WW2 we would either be speaking German or Japanese.

If you are going to war. .fight to win.

 

[ZachJump]

Rich irony, here. How easily you and others dismiss the thousands of JEWISH voices calling for the state of Israel to stop doing the very doomed-history-repeating you and others appear so fully committed to willfully ignore.

Different lives valued differently.

You are correct....the thousands of voices speaking against got drained out by the voices that are no longer able to speak for themselves and the millions speaking for.

 

[Phenomenally Frantastic]

Translation:
The messages are finally starting to become (a little) clearer, so here's another push and help:
In my dreams, the members of the War Cabinet will appear every day once a day on all media in Israel and in the world and say the following:
War is hell. We don't want her. We want to end the war. We want a ceasefire and agree to it.
(Pause)
These are our terms:
1) Immediate release of all the abductees
2) Demilitarization of all of Gaza and exposure and destruction of all tunnels
3) Delivering the planners and perpetrators of the October 7th massacre to justice
4) Initiating an overall move to ideologically uproot "from the river to the sea", "return" and "emissions" from the Palestinian ethos

These are basic conditions that every nation seeking justice and peace should support.
These conditions will not bring back to us the people that Hamas brutally massacred, but the fulfillment of these conditions will lead to a ceasefire and the end of the war.

Thanks.

(and then repeat all these messages with quiet determination over and over and over and over again).

 

[Formerly Rockymtnole]

I’m not wading into this mess, but still have the concern I posed back on page 3 or 10 or wherever when this thing started: what is Israel’s long-term game plan here?

There is no question IMO that they will need to rebuild and occupy Gaza for the indefinite future.

Also, if they thought they had a Palestinian problem before, boy…what now? Even if you were a Palestinian who disliked Hamas before, once your home and relatives were bombed I suspect you’re more aligned against Israel. I get they had to respond but I don’t see stability for a long, long time.

 

[BrunoMars420]

I’m not wading into this mess, but still have the concern I posed back on page 3 or 10 or wherever when this thing started: what is Israel’s long-term game plan here?

There is no question IMO that they will need to rebuild and occupy Gaza for the indefinite future.

Also, if they thought they had a Palestinian problem before, boy…what now? Even if you were a Palestinian who disliked Hamas before, once your home and relatives were bombed I suspect you’re more aligned against Israel. I get they had to respond but I don’t see stability for a long, long time.

Sounds like there will be a heavy security presence in Gaza after they dominate Hamas. In terms of the Palestinian problem, the radical islamists just tried to assassinate the Palestinian president yesterday. I would assume Palestinian people would be smart to distance themselves from what Hamas is doing and help destroy them.

 

[Formerly Rockymtnole]

I would assume Palestinian people would be smart to distance themselves from what Hamas is doing and help destroy them.

That would be great, but is it possible? Kind of like saying Mexicans should just rise up and rid themselves of the cartels. Probably easier said than done.

 

[JimStarr777]

I’m not sure where you’re from, and I haven’t asked.
But I do think a lot of the people on this forum have parents, grand parents, uncles, and great uncles, that leveled the cities of innocent Italian, French, Belgian, and German towns to root out the Nazis.

Can you suggest a better way to deal with an aggressive and irredeemably genocidal threat than our forebears showed us?

@WestCoastHawkI why aren’t you responding? You’re basically outing yourself as a supporter of terrorism.