Sandfort not JBO.
Davison locked jbo up, and so does every big ten guard who wants to.
Payton Sandfort
- Thread starter GTHawks
- Start date
Davison locked jbo up, and so does every big ten guard who wants to.
Honestly, I'm OK with not seeing much of Sandfort this year and it has nothing to do with his potential. Only so many minutes like you said. I'd rather see more Kris and Perkins if we are talking about minutes at the 2 and 3 spots as I believe they are both better all around players than Sandfort is today. Like it or not, Fran is never going to reduce JBo, Pmac and Cmac below a certain level so those 2 players are already capped as it is. Kris played a lot of minutes against Indiana, but only because Keegan was in foul trouble. In the 3 games prior to Wisconsin, he only played an average of 11 minutes. Perkins only played 11 minutes against Indiana. They need to play more, not less.
Kris might have even more potential than Keegan considering he's a little better shooter and being lefty is always an advantage.
If Fran continues to limit his minutes it amounts to sabotaging the team.
We're talking about his time at Iowa.
He doesn't move nearly as much as JoBo. No one does. And no one else gets held and bumped as much as JoBo. Rewatch the games sometime. You'll see what I am talking about.
Usually Payton will make a cut or 2 and then stop. In the B1G, he is only open for a moment, and generally there is a defender in the passing lanes to him.
I didn't say he moves more than JBO, I said he was better at getting open. And he is.
Jbo runs around and accomplishes very little. It certainly doesn't result in him getting open.
Sandfort generally waits for the defense to react to the ballhandler and moves and cuts off that like your suppose to because plays are not being run for him.
Running around like Jbo does doesn't accomplish much of anything because the defense never takes eyes off you.
Watch some other basketball besides Iowa sometime.
The way great shooters get open is to move in concert with the ball handler. Otherwise their job is to keep a defender occupied and out of the lane.
I just think he is having difficulty adjusting to the speed of big time basketball. He gets lost a bit on defense and his shot isn't falling. Definitely not writing the kid off at this point. I think he will grow into a B1G player.
That's putting it mildly. That and he rarely knows what he is talking about.
This.
Sandfort will have a fine career. But he is a forward, not a 2. And the forward position is the deepest part of Iowa's roster.
There is a bit of truth to his statement although perhaps not so sinister in nature. Contrary to what some on here still believe, I am also of the opinion that Kris s/b getting 25-30 per game. He's proven beyond a doubt that he not only has one of the highest ceilings on the team but that he is already capable of leading the team to victory as he did a few days ago. No one else on the team except for Keegan possesses his skillet. That being the case, if Kris doesn't average 25+ going forward it is kneecapping the team to a certain extent. It doesn't mean Fran sees it that way, but it's difficult to see how this would be in the best interests of the team this year.
There really isn't any reason for any of the group of Keegan, Kris, PMac or Rebraca not to have the opportunity to average 25 minutes. They should deserve them. If one or more is having an off night, the hot hands should have the minutes. No one is immune to having an off game on this team.
Game by game minutes should and will vary, but you don't sit your best players in any games. They do things that the other players simply can't do. Same reason Garza and JoeW averaged 30+ last year. Keegan is your best player and that's not debatable. He gets 30+ every game. Kris is your second best player, and as was the case with Keegan, the more minutes Kris gets the better he will get. He gets 25-30 per game. Nobody else on the team brings the skillset that Kris does with the exception of Keegan. There is no logical reason why he doesn't average 25-30 minutes at the 2-4 positions at the expense of everyone not named Keegan. Kris is very versatile but you and I both know that Kris is probably most effective at the 3 or 4. I don't think that Kris s/b getting a lot of minutes at the 5. IMO Kris needs to start taking some of PMac's and JBo's minutes in addition to spelling Keegan. Not a slight to Pmac at all, just a recognition that the best players should play where they play best and Pmac can't do what Kris can do out of that position. Cmac can't be averaging 15+ per game either if that's in place of Kris. I don't really see any of this happening because of the dynamics involved, but that's what probably should happen for the team to reach it's full potential this year.
The only thing that keep Keegan off the floor this year is foul trouble or injury. We've seen both. He's still averaging almost 29 mpg.
If Kris isn't getting 20+ minutes a game from now on, it's not because the coaches hate him or favor other players. His aggressiveness and smart play will dictate his minutes, as it did in the last game. He has not had a game even remotely like that one before so it's hard to say he can do that every night. But he has that potential. And he is averaging almost 18 mpg after averaging just over 3 mpg last year, so he is getting opportunities. He is now averaging more time off the bench than any other non starter. I hope this game leads to more great play from him.
Saying he needs to take this or that player's minutes, especially when referring to guards (JoBo, for example), is just stupid. Kris is not a guard. And there are plenty of minutes at the 3 forward spots for the players there. I agree that we shouldn't see CMac at a forward spot with both Murrays on the bench unless there are injuries and/or foul trouble, but sometimes situations dictate the lineups. Never say never.
To sabotage something doesn't necessarily mean your doing it on purpose.
People sabotage themselves all the time by having wrong priorities.
Fran making decisions to limit Kris playing time amounts to sabotaging himself.
He may end up better, but right now he's not as good of a shooter as Jordan. He's also far more likely to turn the ball over. If his defense offset those, I'd be in favor of him playing more. For now, this year, he's playing about as much as he should.
And yes, he'll get better. He'll probably end up one of the best shooters in Iowa history. He's just not there yet, and won't get there this year even with far more pt.
And there are plenty of minutes at the 3 forward spots for the players there. More nonsense. There are only 2 forward spots and one of them is locked up by Keegan who needs to see 30+ per game. Pmac can't play the 5 and Keegan and Kris are much more effective at the 3/4. The only way that Kris sees 25-30 is if Pmac's numbers come down. It's not about fairness or equity or deserving or whatever.. It's about giving your team the best chance to win.
I agree that we shouldn't see CMac at a forward spot with both Murrays on the bench unless there are injuries and/or foul trouble, but sometimes situations dictate the lineups. Never say never. Again we agree.
I understand but that's the way it was being interpreted.
BB, the only thing limiting Kris' minutes this year has been Fran. He did have a bum ankle or back or whatever for a bit, but he's been great. By every advanced metric, he is far and away the 2nd best player on the team. PER, Win Shares, Box +/- per minute, in all of them he's way, way better than every player on Iowa's roster not named Keegan Murray. Yet his minutes are 8th on the team. How is is possible, and how does it make any sense? He probably won't come close to getting 29 points in another game this year, but he's already had games where he's been dominant in stretches. He's shooting 57% on 2's, 44% on 3's, can block shots, rebound, get his own shot. A guy with that skill set needs to be penciled in for 25+ minutes per game, no matter what.
I think you’re beating a dead horse here Dodger. It’s clear to most everyone (except the guy that matters the most) that by all metrics he’s our 2nd best player. However, what do you think it would take for Fran to boost him to 25-28 minutes a game. I think we know he’s not changing his starting lineup. I also think he was forced to play Kris because of the foul trouble to Keegan Rebraca. I’d like to think his minutes would come more from Patrick or Connor but I don’t think so. We’ll see.
There are 3 forward spots in Iowa's offense right now. There is no true center. Rebraca is a forward playing center and, unfortunately, not that well. I still think this team would be better served by having him come off the bench and having the Murrays and PMac playing the 3 spots.
Kris played well in cleanup and early games but had struggled in B1G games early until IN. He really was great and I hope he can do that consistently, but it was his first really consistent B1G game.
I know it would lower my blood pressure if I just let it drop. It's a message board, I should just let it go. What gets me is that his play has been so good it's hard to believe he's not playing more minutes (there I did it again). I might have my opinion on what defense Iowa should play, etc. But this one just seems like a no-brainer. Really hope Hawks found something in the Indiana game.
BB this just isn't true. For conference games only, the difference between Kris and guys 3-10 on the team is even more pronounced. He hasn't been good in only 1 game. In conference games, he and Keegan are head and shoulders above everyone.
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To be fair, he is 4th in minutes played in conference games. That is important. He and Rebraca have played the same amount of minutes, and he's played less than Bohannon and Patrick McC.
I am not saying he shouldn't play or shouldn't play more minutes, but he has had some absolute brain farts in games where he screwed up and then compounded it by fouling almost immediately. The talent is there as we saw in the last game. He finally showed the patience and aggressiveness that he needs to be great. I hope he can consistently do it now.
His last game skews that. He shot over 60% and took over a 3rd the shots he has taken for the year. He was on fire, for sure.BB this just isn't true. For conference games only, the difference between Kris and guys 3-10 on the team is even more pronounced. He hasn't been good in only 1 game. In conference games, he and Keegan are head and shoulders above everyone.
2021-22 Iowa Hawkeyes Men's Roster and Stats | College Basketball at Sports-Reference.com
Check out the detailed 2021-22 Iowa Hawkeyes Roster and Stats for College Basketball at Sports-Reference.com
To be fair, he is 4th in minutes played in conference games. That is important. He and Rebraca have played the same amount of minutes, and he's played less than Bohannon and Patrick McC.
In the previous 4 B1G games? Against PU, IL, MD and WI he was inconsistent, not terrible, but his shooting stats don't exactly jump off the page. He was 13-30 overall, and 4-14 from the 3. he averaged about 3 rbs in those 4 games and averaged almost 19 mpg. Again, he was good but nothing like he was against IN in 10 more minutes. Not even close.
I WANT Kris to be that great player. I hope he is there. But to make it sound as though he has been playing all year as well as he did against IN is just not true.
We have 3 centers and it depends on the opponent. Neither Kris nor Patrick is well suited to defending true bigs. When this team loses games it's on the glass and on defense. Kris and Rebraca both rebound at a higher rate than Patrick does.
I would argue that none of the group including the Murrays, PMac and Rebraca players can defend a true center alone. They all need guard help. Not that it's a killer issue because I really think that Iowa has the help to compensate. But that help has to come and be ready to get physical.
On the offensive end, the Murrays are probably the best rebounders. But those 4 have all shown that they can rebound.
I'll say it again if you are playing a guy like that the 8th most minutes sabotage is a perfectly rational description.
I've had enough of your thread derailing. This thread was about Sandfort until you hijacked it on page 1. If you want to talk about Kris Murray, start your own thread.
Here's what you're failing to comprehend over and over BB. He played at a caliber that ONLY Kris and Keegan can play at against Indiana. No one else on the team not named Murray will ever put up those numbers this year or frankly even come close. That fact alone means he should be getting 25-30 if this team is to reach its potential. Now, toss that aside and go with your logic that he only had one good game and it was a fluke. If that game is never even played, he is STILL the second best player on the team based on all of the metrics to date. That game just solidified it.
FOR THE ENTIRE YEAR OVER 16 Games.
His effective field goal percentage is 60% vs 46% for Pmac. That's good for 2nd on the team.
His PER is 31.2 vs 18.7 for Pmac. That's good for 2nd on the team
His per 40 RPG is 11.2 vs 5.9 for Pmac. That's tied for 1st on the team.
His per 40 PPG is 24 vs 18.3 for Pmac. That's good for 2nd on the team.
His Blocks per game are 2.5 vs .6 for Pmac. That's good for 2nd on the team.
His Steals per game are 2.1 vs 1.2 for Pmac. That's good for 3rd on the team.
He's a highly efficient scorer. He is perhaps the best rebounder. He is an excellent defender. There is no one else on the team that you can make these statements about not named Murray. He is a much better player than Pmac, Cmac or anyone else taking minutes except for his brother. It's just a fact. This is not just my gut or my opinion. The numbers all support it. You just for whatever reason have a problem grasping it.
Neither the Murray's nor Pmac have the physicality to keep a big center off of his spot or off the boards without fouling. Rebraca and Ogundele are better suited for that. I thought the defensive side improved with Ogundele in there against Indiana.
I agree. Payton has some special skills (quick, consistent and high release on hus jump shot, good timing for defending/blocking shots) that I believe will help him to have success at Iowa. The rest of his game just needs to catch up.
