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PTL July 12

Fleming doesn't look like a freshman
Fleming doesn't play like a freshman
He is not the norm...doesn't matter whether he starts (although I predict it by the time the B1G season starts).
The kid is a real gamer....smart player - both ends
 
Dan - why are you holding out on Wagner?

I just didn't see enough of his game to add anything new. Sometimes it's tough for guys who aren't out where they can get the pass to get their hands on the ball.
 
When it is all said and done we just may be saying Williams was the steal of this class. He just oozes potential and as he has shown, can score in bunches when that is needed. He will have some growing up and filling out to do and won't be counted on right away. But we have to get him ready to play for the following season and I suspect he will make the jump he needs to. He is a real athlete and l-o-n-g!!
 
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When it is all said and done we just may be saying Williams was the steal of this class. He just oozes potential and as he has shown, can score in bunches when that is needed. He will have some growing up and filling out to do and won't be counted on right away. But we have to get him ready to play for the following season and I suspect he will make the jump he needs to. He is a real athlete and l-o-n-g!!

The 4:30 game. Gesell, Bohannon of UNI, Carlson of UNI, Christian Williams...versus Matt Gatens, Ellingson, Fleming, Wes Washpun of UNI...that had a Division One College scrimmage game written all over it. The refs actually performed at a Big Ten level, I am sorry to say. ;) Other than that, the game was on a par with the old PTL days when many Ex-Hawkeyes would return and the talent level was noticeable.

Williams was performing well with talent around him and facing him.
 
If I'm not mistaken, Fleming was 2X Tennessee All-State 1st Team and Mr. Basketball his junior year before accepting an invitation to play at Oak Hill Academy his senior season so the statement that he "didn't even start for his high school team" is, to put it bluntly, unbelievably ignorant and wildly misleading.

I mean Oak Hill Academy is widely considered the best high school basketball program in the USA. Oak Hill has put somewhere around 30 former players in the NBA -guys like Carmello Anthony and Kevin Durant. Coach Smith can literally get any high school player he wants to join his team. You do not turn down an invitation to play for Oak Hill Academy. And, as DanL mentioned, Fleming did start a string of games at mid-season.
I am not sure what the argument is here. Are you (and a few others) saying that Fleming's experience in HS and the talent that he has shown in the PTL is enough to where McC should bench upperclassmen?
 
BBHawk, i can't speak for others but my argument is that Fleming definitely has the skills to make the starting line-up his 1st year. Further, that starting is a real possibility if Jok does indeed move to the 3 spot, even though I think McCaffery will go with Clemmons at SG to start the season. If, at any time Fran decides to go with a 3-guard line-up, Fleming is in. Moss could surely contend but i think Fleming is a better all around player out of high school to begin with; missing the summer sessions puts him in a bigger hole. All of the above is my opinion only.

I see Ellingson as a 3PT specialist off the bench.
 
I am not sure what the argument is here. Are you (and a few others) saying that Fleming's experience in HS and the talent that he has shown in the PTL is enough to where McC should bench upperclassmen?

Bench?....what are you talking about? bench to me means "not playing"... what upperclassmen are you talking about?? you do realize that Gesell plays point....as Sapp...all I'm saying is Fleming IMO is the real deal ---that's a good thing...and considering Jok has stated he will be moved to the 3...its pretty clear that Fleming has the chance to play a lot of minutes at the 2....and would not surprise me starts at 2 come B1G time.
 
Thanks fellas. My two sets of eyes on the ground have said about the same stuff about yesterday's games. Whoever said it above said a mouthful. Its been a long time since we've had such a consensus regarding the new comers. Fleming and Ellingson are the names that I keep hearing, with a lot of oohs and aahs over Fleming, and the worst I'm hearing from the group is don't get ahead of ourselves on Fleming.

Cannot wait til some real games, even if its just exhibition games. Thanks again, boys.
 
Thanks fellas. My two sets of eyes on the ground have said about the same stuff about yesterday's games. Whoever said it above said a mouthful. Its been a long time since we've had such a consensus regarding the new comers. Fleming and Ellingson are the names that I keep hearing, with a lot of oohs and aahs over Fleming, and the worst I'm hearing from the group is don't get ahead of ourselves on Fleming.

Cannot wait til some real games, even if its just exhibition games. Thanks again, boys.
I'm excited to see where Baer fits into the mix. I think both he and Wagner will see some time in the front court.
So many options, though, with the length McCaffery has recruited .
 
I don't think Williams rs's

Fran will probably want him to get some time against competition before thrown in the fire next yr. Even if it is really sparingly, I just don't see him R'S the kid.
 
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My gut tells me Fleming is a one and done given his performance in the PTL to date. Worst case he's a lotto pick after two years.
 
Easy to pick out the ISU fans that are trolling. Save it for the football board. You can actually sneak under the radar better clown
 
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I don't think Williams rs's

Fran will probably want him to get some time against competition before thrown in the fire next yr. Even if it is really sparingly, I just don't see him R'S the kid.

you could very well be right on Williams. We got 6 guys back...Gesell, Clemmons, Jok, Uhl, Uthoff & Woodbury...Fran is not going to rotate 6...that leaves time for the newcomers & Ellingson/Baer to compete for...and to fan speculate.

I think Uhl backups' Uthoff & Woody.
Jok moves to starting at the 3...because he has said as much..
if thats' the case..it opens up the 2...
I don't see Clemmons starting at the 2...at least come B1G time...seems having him as an experienced guard coming off the bench was pretty valuable last year..so if Sapp doesn't start & Jok does indeed start at 3...who starts at 2?

...my guess is Fleming...starter minutes? probably not..15+..
 
you could very well be right on Williams. We got 6 guys back...Gesell, Clemmons, Jok, Uhl, Uthoff & Woodbury...Fran is not going to rotate 6...that leaves time for the newcomers & Ellingson/Baer to compete for...and to fan speculate.

I think Uhl backups' Uthoff & Woody.
Jok moves to starting at the 3...because he has said as much..
if thats' the case..it opens up the 2...
I don't see Clemmons starting at the 2...at least come B1G time...seems having him as an experienced guard coming off the bench was pretty valuable last year..so if Sapp doesn't start & Jok does indeed start at 3...who starts at 2?

...my guess is Fleming...starter minutes? probably not..15+..
I could be mistaken, but I thought I read somewhere McCaffery implied that "somebody" would red-shirt given the plethora of freshmen. I also recall someone (on this board) saying it was all but certain Hutton was the primary red-shirt candidate, but I could be 'misremembering' that too. o_O

What a problem to have. Just a few short years ago it was difficult to find 5 division 1 players on Iowa's squad.
 
Thanks fellas. My two sets of eyes on the ground have said about the same stuff about yesterday's games. Whoever said it above said a mouthful. Its been a long time since we've had such a consensus regarding the new comers. Fleming and Ellingson are the names that I keep hearing, with a lot of oohs and aahs over Fleming, and the worst I'm hearing from the group is don't get ahead of ourselves on Fleming.

Cannot wait til some real games, even if its just exhibition games. Thanks again, boys.

Yep November will be very interesting...
in the meantime..

ya I don't think making positive comments about Fran's newbies is getting ahead of ourselves...a number of us have watched a lot of basketball...a lot. Talking basketball is all it is...oohs & aahs ...not really...just talking Iowa basketball in a positive light....of which not so many years ago was not even possible.

There are a few on this board that don't & cant find the enjoyment...
 
I could be mistaken, but I thought I read somewhere McCaffery implied that "somebody" would red-shirt given the plethora of freshmen. I also recall someone (on this board) saying it was all but certain Hutton was the primary red-shirt candidate, but I could be 'misremembering' that too. o_O

What a problem to have. Just a few short years ago it was difficult to find 5 division 1 players on Iowa's squad.

there was a comment in the Lounge about Hutton redshirting...the poster who made the comment.has pretty close ties to the coaching staff.

and yes McCaffery has confirmed redshirt possibilities..who & or how many...total guesses at this point..

injuries could also change things..
 
there was a comment in the Lounge about Hutton redshirting...the poster who made the comment.has pretty close ties to the coaching staff.

and yes McCaffery has confirmed redshirt possibilities..who & or how many...total guesses at this point..

injuries could also change things..

I would imagine as well that the redshirt decisions very well may not be made until the season starts in some instances. Opinions of the staff could change from before these guys got on campus to after Summer workouts and practice this fall when they've had much more time to evaluate everyone. That said, it's still fun to speculate as fans.
 
It sounds like we have good problems. I watched all of Oak Hill games that were on ESPN.
I couldn't see what all the hype was on Reaves. The FSU recruit is a stud, but also was a ball hog and not a team player.
Fleming held his own playing on that team and got great competition to play against.
I agree that he will be starting at the 2 by conference play.
Sapp will be backing up Gesell at the point.
Ellington is going to be put in to be a zone buster.
Jones will contribute in this matter too.
The great thing is that Fran has a lot of weapons to work with. He can use a lot of different
Lineups and it really will come down too, how our opponent is playing us and who has the hot hand that particular game.
What a problem to have
 
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Fran has a fab 5 in this freshman class in the sense that all appear college ready. With that said, I don't think giving Williams a few garbage minutes against ooc scrubs is going to speed up his learning curve enough to offset losing a season of his talents.
I hope Fran can talk guys into RS's if they are going to be playing less than 5 minutes per game. The payoff will be worth it. Plus, 5 years of free school isn't a bad thing. Obviously there should not be a rs if they are capable of helping us win 1 more game.
 
I guess I don't understand the debate about who starts or comes off the bench. Gabe came off the bench with as many or more minutes than Woodbury last year, so it doesn't really matter to me. Minutes are minutes.

After watching some Oak Hill games last year, there was only 1 player who seemed to be organized, if you want to use that term, and that was Flemming. I agree with a poster above, he reminds me of Gatens too.
 
Fleming's style of game reminds me more of Nick Stauskus than a freshman Matt Gatens.
 
My gut tells me Fleming is a one and done given his performance in the PTL to date. Worst case he's a lotto pick after two years.


Pretty sad that you have to come up with a hawkeye based user name to post your nonsense on this board. You must have really pitiful self esteem. You've never fooled anyone yet as to where your true loyalties lie so you may as well give up. No one here takes you seriously.
 
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Fleming's style of game reminds me more of Nick Stauskus than a freshman Matt Gatens.

Really? I remember him going left baseline and poking one off two feet against us in AA, that really opened my eyes about that kid.

Stauskas has skillz, Fleming is about to be a frosh in college. Hope you're correct.
 
What is the real significance to starting if you log more minutes than a starter? It happened a lot last year. Starters should be guys who can dig in and play from the git/go and players who log the most minutes are the guys who should be the most consistent and play well together.

Does anyone think (it's sooooo friggin' early, but what do we have to talk about) we will play 10 bodies consistently this year?
 
[QUOTE="hawksense, post: 485526, member: 15248"Does anyone think (it's sooooo friggin' early, but what do we have to talk about) we will play 10 bodies consistently this year?[/QUOTE]

I expect 11-12 guys will play during pre-conference, The 5 returning vets are set to play major minutes.. The challenge is to see which 4-5 of the 8 new players will make the rotation cut. I hope Fran settles with a solid 8 rotation and adds a couple more for specific roles .... say Ellingson as a regular zone buster and Hutton as a lockdown on an opponent with a hot hand. Yeah, I guess 10 players on a consistent basis sounds about right.
 
[QUOTE="hawksense, post: 485526, member: 15248"Does anyone think (it's sooooo friggin' early, but what do we have to talk about) we will play 10 bodies consistently this year?

I expect 11-12 guys will play during pre-conference, The 5 returning vets are set to play major minutes.. The challenge is to see which 4-5 of the 8 new players will make the rotation cut. I hope Fran settles with a solid 8 rotation and adds a couple more for specific roles .... say Ellingson as a regular zone buster and Hutton as a lockdown on an opponent with a hot hand. Yeah, I guess 10 players on a consistent basis sounds about right.[/QUOTE]

It might be really tough to keep guys happy with their minutes this year. Heck, even last year with only ten scholarship players (not counting Denning) available we had three different guys approach McCaffery to talk about increasing their minutes, Jok, Clemmons and Dickerson. We've got eighteen guys on the roster. At the end of blowouts we could see five walkons on the court.

Even if we redshirt two guys, I don't know how the twelve vying for minutes can all fit. Fortunately, we'll probably have five games where we play at home against teams that we should be able to get guys into the game early. And maybe the Drake game as well. What is weird is we can ask players to be patient, but the openings next year are for positions that most of our guys won't fill. Something has to give and I've a feeling that we're going to see some transfers out of the seven freshmen we have (counting Ellingson and Baer in the seven).

It might seem like we need to try to get guys in the games. But I suppose the right thing to do is play the best players and let the chips fall where they may. Six returnees from last season. Gesell, Uthoff and Woody will get all the minutes they can handle. Clemmons, Jok and Uhl will see the court but could see their time challenged by some newbies. Odds are, to me, those six get no less than 140 mpg, and probably more like 150.

Going off comments guys have made about what position they expect to play, it looks as if shooting guard will be wide open. I suppose Fleming, Ellingson, Moss, Hutton even Williams will make their case in practice. Then the decision who redshirts comes into it. Jones, Wagner and Baer? If Jok moves to the wing they are looking at four guys with experience ahead of them.

Get the guys on the bench as many minutes as possible in games we've put away to see what they can do. By the Big Ten, cut the "guts" of the team to eight regulars and maybe there is a little time here or there after that. Ten guys? Probably? But not ten guys getting twenty minutes each, more like three getting a bunch, five getting similar, and a couple getting spot duty.

And unfortunately, I like the potential of all of our guys, we're probably going to see the herd thin itself in the next couple of years.
 
Bench?....what are you talking about? bench to me means "not playing"... what upperclassmen are you talking about?? you do realize that Gesell plays point....as Sapp...all I'm saying is Fleming IMO is the real deal ---that's a good thing...and considering Jok has stated he will be moved to the 3...its pretty clear that Fleming has the chance to play a lot of minutes at the 2....and would not surprise me starts at 2 come B1G time.
You don't think Fran is going to start the 2 seniors at the 1-2, at least to start the season? I'd be surprised if those guys didn't start. Fran loves experience. Plus, it's not all about offense. Some people were saying Jok was going to be starter his freshman year because he was a shooter. Even last year Fran elected to replace him with Sapp because he trusted him more. When you get into the B1G you have to be able to play defense. Maybe Fleming can guard B1G guards, but we KNOW Sapp and Gesell can do it, and they do a pretty good job of it. Playing at Oak Hill against the competition they play isn't the same thing as playing at MSU or Wis. The competition level in the B1G and the crowd noise on the road can make it difficult for even the best freshman to adjust to.
 
I expect 11-12 guys will play during pre-conference, The 5 returning vets are set to play major minutes.. The challenge is to see which 4-5 of the 8 new players will make the rotation cut. I hope Fran settles with a solid 8 rotation and adds a couple more for specific roles .... say Ellingson as a regular zone buster and Hutton as a lockdown on an opponent with a hot hand. Yeah, I guess 10 players on a consistent basis sounds about right.

It might be really tough to keep guys happy with their minutes this year. Heck, even last year with only ten scholarship players (not counting Denning) available we had three different guys approach McCaffery to talk about increasing their minutes, Jok, Clemmons and Dickerson. We've got eighteen guys on the roster. At the end of blowouts we could see five walkons on the court.

Even if we redshirt two guys, I don't know how the twelve vying for minutes can all fit. Fortunately, we'll probably have five games where we play at home against teams that we should be able to get guys into the game early. And maybe the Drake game as well. What is weird is we can ask players to be patient, but the openings next year are for positions that most of our guys won't fill. Something has to give and I've a feeling that we're going to see some transfers out of the seven freshmen we have (counting Ellingson and Baer in the seven).

It might seem like we need to try to get guys in the games. But I suppose the right thing to do is play the best players and let the chips fall where they may. Six returnees from last season. Gesell, Uthoff and Woody will get all the minutes they can handle. Clemmons, Jok and Uhl will see the court but could see their time challenged by some newbies. Odds are, to me, those six get no less than 140 mpg, and probably more like 150.

Going off comments guys have made about what position they expect to play, it looks as if shooting guard will be wide open. I suppose Fleming, Ellingson, Moss, Hutton even Williams will make their case in practice. Then the decision who redshirts comes into it. Jones, Wagner and Baer? If Jok moves to the wing they are looking at four guys with experience ahead of them.

Get the guys on the bench as many minutes as possible in games we've put away to see what they can do. By the Big Ten, cut the "guts" of the team to eight regulars and maybe there is a little time here or there after that. Ten guys? Probably? But not ten guys getting twenty minutes each, more like three getting a bunch, five getting similar, and a couple getting spot duty.

And unfortunately, I like the potential of all of our guys, we're probably going to see the herd thin itself in the next couple of years.[/QUOTE]

Dan,
No doubt that playing time will be a tough fight going forward. The good news for the incoming players is that four seniors leave after this year. You could field a starting lineup of Williams, Flemming, Jok, Uhl and Jones in two years and you could insert Brady for Flemming, Hutton for Jok and Wagner for Uhl/Jones.

Even if we get a stud point guard and two stud bigs these Freshman and Jones should see a lot of playing time next year. I bet practices are going to be intense and if chemistry is good, look out!!! The talent seems to keep getting upgraded. Iowa basketball is going to continue to be very fun to watch under Fran's tutaledge.

I would redshirt Wagner and Williams this year. Wagner because I think if this guy can take a year to work on his offense with college coaching he will be a stud (his defense and rebounding is pretty good already) and Williams because we have two Senior point guards already. I think we can man the 4/5 spot with Woody, Jones, Uthoff, Uhl, Baer, and even Hutton if we went small.
 
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Fran has a fab 5 in this freshman class in the sense that all appear college ready. With that said, I don't think giving Williams a few garbage minutes against ooc scrubs is going to speed up his learning curve enough to offset losing a season of his talents.
I hope Fran can talk guys into RS's if they are going to be playing less than 5 minutes per game. The payoff will be worth it. Plus, 5 years of free school isn't a bad thing. Obviously there should not be a rs if they are capable of helping us win 1 more game.


Fab 5? As in Michigan Fab 5? LOL. A couple of decent PTL games and we're now comparing to the Fab 5. Awesome. LOL.
 
Fab 5? As in Michigan Fab 5? LOL. A couple of decent PTL games and we're now comparing to the Fab 5. Awesome. LOL.
Everybody knows that if you can score 15 points in a PTL game then it is almost for sure that you will become an all-american.
 
RS should be avoided if possible. If you carry a player for 5 years you are blocking a future recruit.
 
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A couple things.

In the scheme of recruit, retain and develop a player taking a redshirt year can be a good thing. But not every time. No where near the level that football does it. JUST to give guys five years is a mistake. Keeping talent off the floor that we could use this year, even in only a few minutes, is a mistake. But not redshirting just to assume the scholarship will land a better player is a mistake as well. Thirteen scholarships? We can't play thirteen guys game. That extra year for a player that can develop, under the right circumstances, good coaching.

Why are we assuming Fab 5 like Michigan? We had our own Fab five that took us to two Final Fours including a Championship game. Those guys weren't Five Star ranked players, either.
 
Mostly I believe a redshirt should only be used in basketball for when a player sustains an injury/illness and needs time to recover. Not getting playing time is not a good enough reason to redshirt somebody. Scholarships are valuable and you don't burn a whole year for no reason.
 
Mostly I believe a redshirt should only be used in basketball for when a player sustains an injury/illness and needs time to recover. Not getting playing time is not a good enough reason to redshirt somebody. Scholarships are valuable and you don't burn a whole year for no reason.
I agree. You also are never sure when a player(s) is going to get hurt. Let them play. I'm pretty universally against redshirting anyone not injury related, with the exception maybe being a big man who maybe comes in terribly undersized, and needs a year to bulk up. Even then you'd have to see the player as having very good skills worth using that extra scholarship year. As you say, scholarships are very valuable and I hate wasting them, hoping a guy might develop and become a contributor later in his career.
 
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