Question About Lee And His Dominance

[bourbon n blues]

I'm pretty much a PSU fan and wrestling novice so my technical knowledge is more surface area. I see how Lee is winning and really handling opponents in a way I can't recall too many others. He's obviously a great wrestler at a higher level.
My question is the 125 class perceived to be say easier than the middleweights? Not to take away from his dominance but I'm trying to really grasp this. I powerlfited for example at 132 as a teen , 148 at 20-25, then later in life at 198. There are lb for lb greatest ever lifters at 114 like Hideaki Inaba, 123 and 132 like Lamar Gant, Joe Bradley at 132 and 148, but the greatest ever guys were fellows like Mike Bridges who lifted 148-181, and Ed Coan who lifted at 148 as a kid up to 242 I think.
Any 4x champ needs to be looked at as one of the best ever, and domination of your opponent needs to be considered of course. I wo9nder what more knowledgeable fans think on what tends to be the tougher class? Considering the competition in the respective weight classes on average.
I'm not flaming here, I really want to get a grasp on how people look at various weight classes. I tend to prefer the first 8 classes considering wei8ght cutting and such , which I had to do. I think that adds to the difficulty of course. And I do get that the bigger guys have their own challenges and don't discount their efforts.

 

[Sdwrestler_20]

I'm pretty much a PSU fan and wrestling novice so my technical knowledge is more surface area. I see how Lee is winning and really handling opponents in a way I can't recall too many others. He's obviously a great wrestler at a higher level.
My question is the 125 class perceived to be say easier than the middleweights? Not to take away from his dominance but I'm trying to really grasp this. I powerlfited for example at 132 as a teen , 148 at 20-25, then later in life at 198. There are lb for lb greatest ever lifters at 114 like Hideaki Inaba, 123 and 132 like Lamar Gant, Joe Bradley at 132 and 148, but the greatest ever guys were fellows like Mike Bridges who lifted 148-181, and Ed Coan who lifted at 148 as a kid up to 242 I think.
Any 4x champ needs to be looked at as one of the best ever, and domination of your opponent needs to be considered of course. I wo9nder what more knowledgeable fans think on what tends to be the tougher class? Considering the competition in the respective weight classes on average.
I'm not flaming here, I really want to get a grasp on how people look at various weight classes. I tend to prefer the first 8 classes considering wei8ght cutting and such , which I had to do. I think that adds to the difficulty of course. And I do get that the bigger guys have their own challenges and don't discount their efforts.

If future success at world and Olympic level events are a determining factor for the difficulty of a weight class in college wrestling then 125 (57kg) is a solid weight class. The US has done will in recent years at 57kg internationally with Gilman and he has been pushed by his US competition for the world team.

 

[bourbon n blues]

If future success at world and Olympic level events are a determining factor for the difficulty of a weight class in college wrestling then 125 (57kg) is a solid weight class. The US has done will in recent years at 57kg internationally with Gilman and he has been pushed by his US competition for the world team.

Thanks, that makes sense.

 

[HawkFan1986]

I'm pretty much a PSU fan and wrestling novice so my technical knowledge is more surface area. I see how Lee is winning and really handling opponents in a way I can't recall too many others. He's obviously a great wrestler at a higher level.
My question is the 125 class perceived to be say easier than the middleweights? Not to take away from his dominance but I'm trying to really grasp this. I powerlfited for example at 132 as a teen , 148 at 20-25, then later in life at 198. There are lb for lb greatest ever lifters at 114 like Hideaki Inaba, 123 and 132 like Lamar Gant, Joe Bradley at 132 and 148, but the greatest ever guys were fellows like Mike Bridges who lifted 148-181, and Ed Coan who lifted at 148 as a kid up to 242 I think.
Any 4x champ needs to be looked at as one of the best ever, and domination of your opponent needs to be considered of course. I wo9nder what more knowledgeable fans think on what tends to be the tougher class? Considering the competition in the respective weight classes on average.
I'm not flaming here, I really want to get a grasp on how people look at various weight classes. I tend to prefer the first 8 classes considering wei8ght cutting and such , which I had to do. I think that adds to the difficulty of course. And I do get that the bigger guys have their own challenges and don't discount their efforts.

I’m pretty over the narrative beginning to form that 125 is a little weaker, and that diminishes the dominance of Spencer Lee. I think that narrative is horse shit, and frankly, disrespectful to the level of wrestling we are seeing week in and week out from a not yet 100% Lee. I’m not saying you’re doing this in this post, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt for now.

Let’s look at some facts. Lee’s junior year he bonused everyone except Courtney, and most believed Courtney was a long distance runner and not a wrestler that match. Also this happened 10 days after blowing his second acl.

Freshman year he blew threw NCAA’s and sent every other 125er to 133. Including Suriano whom Lee beat In the finals. Suriano stayed at 133, won a title, heard Spencer might be damaged, then dropped down for his second chance.

Now Lee is stronger and his dominance seems to have ticked up a level. But people are saying the weight class is weak and that’s the reason. Open your damn eyes. When you do you’ll notice that no one has ever been on his level. The difference this year is he’s leaving no doubt. The weight class is weak because Spencer Lee makes it look that way.

My advice, stop questioning what you’re seeing and just enjoy the ride. This level of dominance doesn’t come around often.

 

[el dub]

I'm pretty much a PSU fan and wrestling novice so my technical knowledge is more surface area. I see how Lee is winning and really handling opponents in a way I can't recall too many others. He's obviously a great wrestler at a higher level.
My question is the 125 class perceived to be say easier than the middleweights? Not to take away from his dominance but I'm trying to really grasp this. I powerlfited for example at 132 as a teen , 148 at 20-25, then later in life at 198. There are lb for lb greatest ever lifters at 114 like Hideaki Inaba, 123 and 132 like Lamar Gant, Joe Bradley at 132 and 148, but the greatest ever guys were fellows like Mike Bridges who lifted 148-181, and Ed Coan who lifted at 148 as a kid up to 242 I think.
Any 4x champ needs to be looked at as one of the best ever, and domination of your opponent needs to be considered of course. I wo9nder what more knowledgeable fans think on what tends to be the tougher class? Considering the competition in the respective weight classes on average.
I'm not flaming here, I really want to get a grasp on how people look at various weight classes. I tend to prefer the first 8 classes considering wei8ght cutting and such , which I had to do. I think that adds to the difficulty of course. And I do get that the bigger guys have their own challenges and don't discount their efforts.

This isn’t power lifting. But I see your point.

 

[TNTwrestle]

It varies a lot from year to year. This year, manu people consider 165 to be the toughest weight class in NCAA Division 1 wrestling because of both the proven winners and new faces with potential. When you have a weight class with multiple returning National Champs, and a lot of retuning AAs it tends to be thought of as a tougher class. A weight where the Champ and most of the AAs graduated, or changed weights is considered weaker. When you have someone like Spencer or Carl that dominate their weight, often people gravitate away from that weight if they have NC aspirations. To me, that goes against the wrestlers mindset of, " I'm the best, I'll prove it by beating the best", but it happens. Any weight can be the toughest on any given year, depending on who lands in it.
Theoretically, the middle weights should be tougher, because more of the population weighs in the middle, so there is a larger pool of contestants, just like 3A schools should be tougher than 1A schools for the same reason, but that is not always the case in real life. In High School there are seldom as many teams forfeiting weights in the 135-170 range as 106 or Heavyweight for that reason as well, but that doesn't mean sometimes 106 or Heavy isn't the toughest weight class
.

 

[IRONBIRD]

I’m pretty over the narrative beginning to form that 125 is a little weaker, and that diminishes the dominance of Spencer Lee. I think that narrative is horse shit, and frankly, disrespectful to the level of wrestling we are seeing week in and week out from a not yet 100% Lee. I’m not saying you’re doing this in this post, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt for now.

Let’s look at some facts. Lee’s junior year he bonused everyone except Courtney, and most believed Courtney was a long distance runner and not a wrestler that match. Also this happened 10 days after blowing his second acl.

Freshman year he blew threw NCAA’s and sent every other 125er to 133. Including Suriano whom Lee beat In the finals. Suriano stayed at 133, won a title, heard Spencer might be damaged, then dropped down for his second chance.

Now Lee is stronger and his dominance seems to have ticked up a level. But people are saying the weight class is weak and that’s the reason. Open your damn eyes. When you do you’ll notice that no one has ever been on his level. The difference this year is he’s leaving no doubt. The weight class is weak because Spencer Lee makes it look that way.

My advice, stop questioning what you’re seeing and just enjoy the ride. This level of dominance doesn’t come around often.

AGREE, I do not think the OP is trying to diminish what SL is doing, just asking a question. Everyone knows how I feel about SL. I think he is the very best wrestler in the world regardless of weight!

That being said, there is the Bell Curve. I believe that is what the OP is getting at? From the lightest weight It starts at the bottom moves up till reaching a peak in the middle weights then starts heading back down. I will use this n for lack of a better way to show it.

So in theory, you will have the most wrestlers competing in the middle weights. This gives you a greater pool of talent to draw from. Which gives you a greater chance of finding better wrestlers.

My thoughts though are, as you continue up the ladder, that bell flattens out some. You start weeding out the masses from HS to college and then to international levels. SL is currently destroying the best of the best in folksyle wrestling.

Scary thing is he is better in FS! So him at 100% is a very scary thing to think about. We as fans win getting to watch him!

 

[82bordeaux]

I think that judging greatness and the quality/depth of a weight class in a given year is not mutually exclusive. Spencer's greatness may be a causation to the weakness at 125 over the last two years. It is undeniable that Spencer's freshman year, 125 was one of the better weights in the NCAA tournament.
If he finishes up with his 4th title as I expect he will he will go down as one of the greatest, which will be well deserved. Fans will remember his injuries, but most will forget about what the weight classes looked like in any given year. They will remember the titles and the dominance. That will be his legacy. What wrestling fans beside the nerdiest stat geeks will bring up who was in any weight class in a certain year? There are fans that will argue Stieber was gifted a title. You know what? Go to the NCAA tournament and there will be a banner with his photo on it with 4 time NCAA Champion below it. He's an all time great too. because of what he accomplished. I expect I'll see a Spencer Lee banner in Kansas City next year too.

 

[Random4598375]

I think 125 and 157 are relatively the weakest weights this year (and 165 the strongest), but that doesn't take anything away from Lee or anyone else's titles. At this level NO class is ever "weak" or "easy" to win a title, and all you can do is beat who's in front of you at the time. If you do it the dominating fashion that Lee has so far this year, you deserve all of the accolades that you get, period.

Lee has to be the odds on favorite for the Hodge if he keeps running through everyone as he has, and anyone who beats him will have to pull off an upset on the level of Owings over Gable.

 

[blcoach80]

Lee has been the best 125lber in the country for 6 consecutive years if you count the covid year and last year. The class has been weak for 6 straight years, or Lee is just really, really good? You pick!?

 

[GlenHawk]

I'm pretty much a PSU fan and wrestling novice so my technical knowledge is more surface area. I see how Lee is winning and really handling opponents in a way I can't recall too many others. He's obviously a great wrestler at a higher level.
My question is the 125 class perceived to be say easier than the middleweights? Not to take away from his dominance but I'm trying to really grasp this. I powerlfited for example at 132 as a teen , 148 at 20-25, then later in life at 198. There are lb for lb greatest ever lifters at 114 like Hideaki Inaba, 123 and 132 like Lamar Gant, Joe Bradley at 132 and 148, but the greatest ever guys were fellows like Mike Bridges who lifted 148-181, and Ed Coan who lifted at 148 as a kid up to 242 I think.
Any 4x champ needs to be looked at as one of the best ever, and domination of your opponent needs to be considered of course. I wo9nder what more knowledgeable fans think on what tends to be the tougher class? Considering the competition in the respective weight classes on average.
I'm not flaming here, I really want to get a grasp on how people look at various weight classes. I tend to prefer the first 8 classes considering wei8ght cutting and such , which I had to do. I think that adds to the difficulty of course. And I do get that the bigger guys have their own challenges and don't discount their efforts.

This seems redundant. Just say you're a PSU wrestling fan

 

[HawkFan1986]

AGREE, I do not think the OP is trying to diminish what SL is doing, just asking a question. Everyone knows how I feel about SL. I think he is the very best wrestler in the world regardless of weight!

That being said, there is the Bell Curve. I believe that is what the OP is getting at? From the lightest weight It starts at the bottom moves up till reaching a peak in the middle weights then starts heading back down. I will use this n for lack of a better way to show it.

So in theory, you will have the most wrestlers competing in the middle weights. This gives you a greater pool of talent to draw from. Which gives you a greater chance of finding better wrestlers.

My thoughts though are, as you continue up the ladder, that bell flattens out some. You start weeding out the masses from HS to college and then to international levels. SL is currently destroying the best of the best in folksyle wrestling.

Scary thing is he is better in FS! So him at 100% is a very scary thing to think about. We as fans win getting to watch him!

I don’t think the OP is diminishing Lee either, but there is a narrative that has begun to form. I thought it could be brought up in this thread and wanted to nip it in the butt before it got started.

In every Lee thread someone says yeah he’s great but look at the weight class. Imo, everything looks like a turd next to a diamond that shines that brightly.

 

[Sdwrestler_20]

I think 125 and 157 are relatively the weakest weights this year (and 165 the strongest), but that doesn't take anything away from Lee or anyone else's titles. At this level NO class is ever "weak" or "easy" to win a title, and all you can do is beat who's in front of you at the time. If you do it the dominating fashion that Lee has so far this year, you deserve all of the accolades that you get, period.

Lee has to be the odds on favorite for the Hodge if he keeps running through everyone as he has, and anyone who beats him will have to pull off an upset on the level of Owings over Gable.

141 is much weaker than 125 imo. I would say 141 and 157 are easily that weakest weights.

 

[bourbon n blues]

This isn’t power lifting. But I see your point.

Yep, I don’t intend any disrespect for Lee or the weight class, I’m just trying to compare it and try to figure things out. I guess a similar comparison might be boxing? Maybe MMA? And from what I recall about those sports, if one was a truly dominant fighter they got the accolades.
Because seriously the nature of the sport is you fight against people your weight so if you’re winning all the time, maybe scoring knockouts or pins or submissions or whatever you’re obviously at the top of the game. I just want to know what people thought about it overall, and how people might look at the various way classes.

 

[bourbon n blues]

I’m pretty over the narrative beginning to form that 125 is a little weaker, and that diminishes the dominance of Spencer Lee. I think that narrative is horse shit, and frankly, disrespectful to the level of wrestling we are seeing week in and week out from a not yet 100% Lee. I’m not saying you’re doing this in this post, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt for now.

Let’s look at some facts. Lee’s junior year he bonused everyone except Courtney, and most believed Courtney was a long distance runner and not a wrestler that match. Also this happened 10 days after blowing his second acl.

Freshman year he blew threw NCAA’s and sent every other 125er to 133. Including Suriano whom Lee beat In the finals. Suriano stayed at 133, won a title, heard Spencer might be damaged, then dropped down for his second chance.

Now Lee is stronger and his dominance seems to have ticked up a level. But people are saying the weight class is weak and that’s the reason. Open your damn eyes. When you do you’ll notice that no one has ever been on his level. The difference this year is he’s leaving no doubt. The weight class is weak because Spencer Lee makes it look that way.

My advice, stop questioning what you’re seeing and just enjoy the ride. This level of dominance doesn’t come around often.

Again, I don’t intend any disrespect. I just don’t quite understand the lay of the land, as well as the understood lifting. The more I think about it, I recall, great fighters, boxers for instants, and various weight classes that had a lot of notoriety, and those men were considered the best ever day off, and we’ll talk pound for poun
I guess wrestling another combat type of sports like it may have to be looked at the same way, because all you could do is beat the guys that are in front of you. If you’re beating him in such a dominating fashion, you have to be considered great.

 

[Random4598375]

141 is much weaker than 125 imo. I would say 141 and 157 are easily that weakest weights.

I think you're right in that for anyone other than Spencer, the 141's don't have a Spencer sitting there on top roadblocking any chance of a title, but if you're looking at it from Spencer's perspective, the guys below him at 125 are similar or slightly below the elite 141s. There's Glory then a bunch of mediocrity. I've seen rumors that Fix might cut to prepare for 57kgs eventually. That would change the calculus entirely. I would love to see Spencer vs Fix in the finals and see if Spencer can bonus a guy who'd rather lose 2-1 then actually try to win.

 

[ChiPackHawk]

I think 125 and 157 are relatively the weakest weights this year (and 165 the strongest), but that doesn't take anything away from Lee or anyone else's titles. At this level NO class is ever "weak" or "easy" to win a title, and all you can do is beat who's in front of you at the time. If you do it the dominating fashion that Lee has so far this year, you deserve all of the accolades that you get, period.

Lee has to be the odds on favorite for the Hodge if he keeps running through everyone as he has, and anyone who beats him will have to pull off an upset on the level of Owings over Gable.

People tend to forget that Owings was pretty damn good. It certainly was an upset, but to think he wasn't an exceptionally talented wrestler is wrong. Not disputing your initial comments at all.

 

[GogglesPaizano]

Spencer is and has been the best 125 for a long time and it really hasn't been that close for a long time as well

I do subscribe to the observation that nature follows a bell curve and it is hard to argue that as a % of the male college age atheletes there are not a lot of 125 lb men out there. It's also recognized as very difficult to find a 'career' 125 so when you get one it's a huge bonus, as a good number might grow into a 133 or even 141 during their career.

One can make similar observations about Heavyweight as well, granted heavy can draw from a larger span of weights so 197 might be a better example. Nevertheless, does that diminish how we look at Gable Steveson?

I would accept that generally speaking the depth of talent of the overall weight class at both ends of the spectrum taken over time results in a slight lower overall quality of competition for the whole field due to a genetically smaller pool of eligible kids.

Gable and Spencer are two great examples, where I don't think it matters when you are taking about the best of the best. Sure the field is weaker, but the 'most elite' talent is pretty even across all weight classes. Spencer is definitely the pinacle.

 

[HawkeyePA]

I honestly think that Spencer is just that damn good. Dont forget about the manner in which he devastated the entire field at the US Senior trials a couple summers ago AFTER not having trained FREESTYLE for quite a long time. I do think the 285 lb weight class does have its own challenges .... I mean making weight SHOULD be easier than a middle weight but i think that it is the Giving up of weight that is the biggest disadvantage. i mean a guy weighs in a solid 220lbs and wrestles a guy that could be 65 lbs heavier than he is. Not that extra weight is a good thing all the time, its just a big factor a LOT of time. Sometimes it is BETTER to be the lighter man but the weight class itself does have its own unique problems.

 

[MN Hawk Fan]

D1 wrestling is tough, I’m guessing 95%+ of the kids would win national championships in NAIA, D2 or D3. So most of the wrestlers at this level belong there and Lee is just that good to make them look silly at times.

 

[ChiPackHawk]

Again, I don’t intend any disrespect. I just don’t quite understand the lay of the land, as well as the understood lifting. The more I think about it, I recall, great fighters, boxers for instants, and various weight classes that had a lot of notoriety, and those men were considered the best ever day off, and we’ll talk pound for poun
I guess wrestling another combat type of sports like it may have to be looked at the same way, because all you could do is beat the guys that are in front of you. If you’re beating him in such a dominating fashion, you have to be considered great.

I don't think you need to clarify your question(s) any further - I just think you are shellshocked from the way non PSU fans get treated on your Board when they try to discuss actual wrestling.

 

[Grip220]

Each season is different when it comes to strength of the top ranked guys and who AA’s at each weight.
If you asked me I would say 197 would be historically the “weakest weight class, and as its been stated there are no “weak weight classes” as far as winning a D1 title. The reason 197 is the weakest is most of the top larger athletes who play multiple sports lean away from wrestling in college, although its trending in our favor recently and thats why we now have some the top Heavyweights ever. The other reason is to have a lean athletic guy in that 6+’ range is less common then say a guy 5’6”- 5’10. The OP brings up Ed Coan probably the best power lifter in the US ever and he is correct that he competed mostly at 220& 242lb class, but he was 5’6” tall!!! This type of athlete no matter how powerfull would get his ass handed to him if he ever tried to wrestle at the heavyweight class in college, its a leverage and reach thing mostly.
The greatest thing about wrestling is if you are an athlete that is smaller in stature or even has a handicap for that matter they can still Excel.

 

[WildTurk]

D1 wrestling is tough, I’m guessing 95%+ of the kids would win national championships in NAIA, D2 or D3. So most of the wrestlers at this level belong there and Lee is just that good to make them look silly at times.

95% seems way high

 

[jrod65]

95% seems way high

83%

 

[Grip220]

83%

Thats more like it

 

[woodsiding]

I've seen a lot of big kids (high school football players) persuaded into wrestling and becoming pretty good, even placing at the upper weights. That does not happen with lower weights.

 

[cookercha]

Let’s look at Lee’s college losses with some context:

Bresser - Is no slouch. Also keep in mind that this was barely 6 months after Spencer’s first major knee surgery. No way that Bresser would ever beat Lee again if they had wrestled Folk.

Tomasello - Former National Champion. Lee gassed in the semifinal at Big10s. Spencer won the first match and then we know what happened at nationals.

SeaBass twice- In both matches, how healthy was Spencer, really? As with Tomasello, Lee dominated Rivera the other times they wrestled. Regardless, to beat Lee twice is pretty amazing.

Piccininni - Spencer was not healthy during the match at OSU from all accounts. When it mattered at Nationals, Lee dominated him. Also beat Piccininni convincingly at Carver.

My contention is that if injuries were never a factor, Lee would have zero losses on his record at Iowa. When healthy he’s one of the most dominant wrestlers there is/was, etc. Like someone said, enjoy it while you can.

 

[el dub]

Let’s look at Lee’s college losses with some context:

Bresser - Is no slouch. Also keep in mind that this was barely 6 months after Spencer’s first major knee surgery. No way that Bresser would ever beat Lee again if they had wrestled Folk.

Tomasello - Former National Champion. Lee gassed in the semifinal at Big10s. Spencer won the first match and then we know what happened at nationals.

SeaBass twice- In both matches, how healthy was Spencer, really? As with Tomasello, Lee dominated Rivera the other times they wrestled. Regardless, to beat Lee twice is pretty amazing.

Piccininni - Spencer was not healthy during the match at OSU from all accounts. When it mattered at Nationals, Lee dominated him. Also beat Piccininni convincingly at Carver.

My contention is that if injuries were never a factor, Lee would have zero losses on his record at Iowa. When healthy he’s one of the most dominant wrestlers there is/was, etc. Like someone said, enjoy it while you can.

I agree.

 

[bourbon n blues]

Spencer is and has been the best 125 for a long time and it really hasn't been that close for a long time as well

I do subscribe to the observation that nature follows a bell curve and it is hard to argue that as a % of the male college age atheletes there are not a lot of 125 lb men out there. It's also recognized as very difficult to find a 'career' 125 so when you get one it's a huge bonus, as a good number might grow into a 133 or even 141 during their career.

One can make similar observations about Heavyweight as well, granted heavy can draw from a larger span of weights so 197 might be a better example. Nevertheless, does that diminish how we look at Gable Steveson?

I would accept that generally speaking the depth of talent of the overall weight class at both ends of the spectrum taken over time results in a slight lower overall quality of competition for the whole field due to a genetically smaller pool of eligible kids.

Gable and Spencer are two great examples, where I don't think it matters when you are taking about the best of the best. Sure the field is weaker, but the 'most elite' talent is pretty even across all weight classes. Spencer is definitely the pinacle.

That is what I was thinking over in my head.

 

[MN Hawk Fan]

95% seems way high

Yeah thinking about it a little more you're probably right but I think most of the D1 guys at major wrestling powerhouses would do pretty well. I stand corrected.

 

[Tcalumet]

141 is much weaker than 125 imo. I would say 141 and 157 are easily that weakest weights.

It’s not uncommon to have guys move up or down when a dominant wrestler is making a multi run at a weight class. Lee can’t help that.

 

[Tcalumet]

Flo’s top 20 p4p has 1 (Lee) guy at 125 and 3 at 133. All 3 would or have wrestled 57kg in off season. There is a reason they are at 133.

 

[Bones Malone]

141 is much weaker than 125 imo. I would say 141 and 157 are easily that weakest weights.

After taking a closer look, 174 could be in this same discussion…

 

[Grip220]

I've seen a lot of big kids (high school football players) persuaded into wrestling and becoming pretty good, even placing at the upper weights. That does not happen with lower weights.

Thats in HS and mostly because of having an athletic large strong person and teaching a few basics is all thats needed. Not happening at the D1 level at least. You could take the most athletic NFL player with no college level wrestling experience and they would not do well in D1 wrestling at least for 2-3 years and thats if they had HS wrestling experience. There have been quite a few top college wrestlers(no college level FB experience) that have made NFL teams and some that have started and had tremendous careers, Not that this could be done by just anyone.

 

[82bordeaux]

After taking a closer look, 174 could be in this same discussion…

Top 4 at those weights:

125 - Spencer/Glory/Cronin/DeAugastino
141 - Alirez/Woods/Matthews/Bartlett
157 - Robb/Franek/Coleman/O'Connor
174 - Starocci/Labriola/Lewis/Foca

Which of these is not like the other? The weakest weights are 157, 141, 125, 174 in that order. Just my opinion.

 

[Neo_Hawk]

SeaBass twice- In both matches, how healthy was Spencer, really? As with Tomasello, Lee dominated Rivera the other times they wrestled. Regardless, to beat Lee twice is pretty amazing.

Let's also not forget that the "one season rule" of hands to the face is the single point in which Lee lost that match to Rivera.

During his Freshman year he pinned a returning NCAA Champ and beat a future champ, than ran up a weight the following year knowing he had a better chance to win. Guess that makes SL the champ at 125 and 133.

 

[Grip220]

Top 4 at those weights:

125 - Spencer/Glory/Cronin/DeAugastino
141 - Alirez/Woods/Matthews/Bartlett
157 - Robb/Franek/Coleman/O'Connor
174 - Starocci/Labriola/Lewis/Foca

Which of these is not like the other? The weakest weights are 157, 141, 125, 174 in that order. Just my opinion.

I would put 57 first, the others are fairly equal. The big difference is great wrestlers avoid 125 when SL is in the mix, this is not happening at any other weight. If Fix goes 125 and Vito was there also, its not in this conversation.

 

[82bordeaux]

I would put 57 first, the others are fairly equal. The big difference is great wrestlers avoid 125 when SL is in the mix, this is not happening at any other weight. If Fix goes 125 and Vito was there also, its not in this conversation.

If Vito and Fix went 125 it would be up there with 165 as toughest.

Edit: I think Lee has removed some blood from the water at 125 in the last 2 weeks.

 

[Bones Malone]

Top 4 at those weights:

125 - Spencer/Glory/Cronin/DeAugastino
141 - Alirez/Woods/Matthews/Bartlett
157 - Robb/Franek/Coleman/O'Connor
174 - Starocci/Labriola/Lewis/Foca

Which of these is not like the other? The weakest weights are 157, 141, 125, 174 in that order. Just my opinion.

I

Top 4 at those weights:

125 - Spencer/Glory/Cronin/DeAugastino
141 - Alirez/Woods/Matthews/Bartlett
157 - Robb/Franek/Coleman/O'Connor
174 - Starocci/Labriola/Lewis/Foca

Which of these is not like the other? The weakest weights are 157, 141, 125, 174 in that order. Just my opinion.

Perhaps splitting hairs but depth/strength of top 10 @ 125 seems stronger than 174. Just my opinion.

 

[bourbon n blues]

I don't think you need to clarify your question(s) any further - I just think you are shellshocked from the way non PSU fans get treated on your Board when they try to discuss actual wrestling.

It's all good, in a skill sport I can see it being tough at any weight class. I do think the one fellow made a decent point about the bell curve. You might find more numbers at certain more common weights making those classes tougher. But if you still dominate your class you're going to be considered great.