By the time you get to the All-American rounds, my guess is the talent level is pretty similar across the various weights. Really makes no difference about how deep the weight is across all teams in the country because you don't have to beat them all to get there. But I would argue that 165 is the toughest in this particular year.
Question About Lee And His Dominance
- Thread starter bourbon n blues
- Start date
174 has two National Champs….the others don’t?
Sorry, I didn’t know the answer was that obvious. I thought maybe he could have meant that only 1 weight (141) doesn’t have a National champion at all.
Edit. Actually, I think that is what he was getting at now that I reread it. Lol
You could make an argument that 125 is tougher than 197 due to the lack of top end talent at 197. 197 is a deep weight class but lacks a standout individual like 125 or 174. I would say 141, 157, 197, 125, 174 in that order.
Considering 2021 & 22, 125 is deep as it has 3 finalists, 8 All-Americans returning plus Cronin who's been beating AAs. Hence my argument about overall depth. 174 has two finalists(x times) both national champs but there's simply not much depth beyond these two(5 AA's?).
Many people forget that bracket at the Senior Nationals. Is that a tough enough bracket for the OP?
The 57-kilo bracket included six total NCAA champs, dozens of past All-Americans, a Junior world silver medalist, a U23 world-teamer, in addition to several other credentialed wrestlers. Lee, a two-time NCAA champion and a three-time age-level world champ himself, outscored his five opponents a combined 52-6.
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A
anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb
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One thing I haven't seen anyone point out yet is that technical expertise is usually higher at the lighter weights than the upper weights. Upper weights have a lower range of skills/moves that can realistically be utilized. Upper weights are more reliant on raw strength.
Light weights are less reliant on strength and more on speed and technique. Lee has freak strength for a 125 and the best technique which is why he's so dominant and damn near unbeatable when 100%. His biggest flaw is his gas tank. Likely a trade off that exists to some extent because of his strength. And his gas tank really is pretty solid when he's 100%.
Light weights are less reliant on strength and more on speed and technique. Lee has freak strength for a 125 and the best technique which is why he's so dominant and damn near unbeatable when 100%. His biggest flaw is his gas tank. Likely a trade off that exists to some extent because of his strength. And his gas tank really is pretty solid when he's 100%.
I believe the OP was asking about weight classes in general, not specific weight classes this year. Namely, since so few college age males are that small, do the numbers make it a weaker weight. This is a legitimate question.
In that regard, I do believe 125 is likely somewhat less deep with talent than, I would guess, 133 through 149. However, since smaller guys have very few athletic options available to them from a young age on, most of the top small athletes gravitate to wrestling. This is not true for 157 and up. This means while 125 is kind of a fringe weight for college-age males, it is loaded with talent. So wrestling won’t follow a bell curve of male weights.
If I were going to rate the weights in historical talent level, it would probably be something like:
149
141
133
157
125
165
174
184
197
HWT
In that regard, I do believe 125 is likely somewhat less deep with talent than, I would guess, 133 through 149. However, since smaller guys have very few athletic options available to them from a young age on, most of the top small athletes gravitate to wrestling. This is not true for 157 and up. This means while 125 is kind of a fringe weight for college-age males, it is loaded with talent. So wrestling won’t follow a bell curve of male weights.
If I were going to rate the weights in historical talent level, it would probably be something like:
149
141
133
157
125
165
174
184
197
HWT
True. I catch a lot of grief for saying this, but there are likely 10x as many kids at 125 who have been wrestling their whole life and emphasizing wrestling as their top priority compared to 197 and HWT. So the talent level is significantly higher at the middle and lower weights.
HWT is an extremely weak weight class in high school. It’s mathematically impossible for it to suddenly become a relatively strong weight class in college.
His tank at the NCAA championships always seems to be unlimited. Every year it seems like he gasses early on then peaks at the big one.
Imagine that.
although I understand your point and the logic is fairly sound, your findings are unfortunately wrong over the last several seasons. I would say since the Gwiz/Snyder era heavyweight has been consistently one of the toughest classes, I would rank it 2/3 toughest this season.
I disagree that these last few years demonstrate what you believe they do. There is no way to actually measure how good the wrestling is in a specific weight class. I do know those guys are beating wrestlers whose talent level is sometimes less than a HS JV kid at the middle weights.
Watch Cass turn a kid with a cross face - no leg Turk, just a simple cross face. Start at 2:40. This is a novice level kid who was starting for a team in the best conference in the country. Beating up this kind of wrestler is not persuasive that any of these big guys have talent in the same level as, say, Max Murin. Because I am convinced they do not.
You won’t see that untalented of a wrestler at 149 anywhere.
I think I “kind of” know where this is going. Tell me what you know about Nick Preston, Owen Elzen, Justin Ruiz, Scott Barker, Kyle Smith, and Jason Payne?
Not sure why 125 is getting so much flak this year. Top 8 are all returning all Americans, there’s 2 ncaa finalist plus Lee. Also ramos isn’t even top 8 and he won US open this last summer. Certainly there are tougher weights but 8 returning Aa’s isn’t even accounting for any new freshman talent.
I think you could make a case that because wrestling is one of the only options for smaller athletes, that it makes up for the fact that relatively fewer people in the general population are in that weight range. I’ve seen lots of interviews with wrestlers where they talk about how they tried football when they were younger but it’s just not really feasible to be any good when you weigh 130lbs so after awhile they just focused 100% on wrestling.
Excellent post. Agree 100%. Spencer would never make an excuse, as we all know, but anyone with any common sense recognizes that, when closer to 100%, he was clearly superior to every guy who beat him.
Have to chuckle thinking back to his freshman year when crablegs spent the whole season talking him down, claiming he couldn’t possibly actually be as good as he was — and he has proven that twit 100% wrong. He’s every bit as good as Iowa fans hoped he’d be and the haters hoped (and still hope) he wouldn’t be. Obviously one of the very few best ever.
Not sure I'd agree with your weight ordering, but agree with your general points. Even within age groupings, college men are not a random sample of all 18-24 aged men. And wrestlers also not likely a random sample of college men. I would expect the wrestling center to be left of average college men, and I think median weight for that is 174. So move the wrestling center left to 157/165, and probably more left-skewed than true bell due to loss of some upper weight athletes to other sports. In any specific year, weight competitiveness/talent probably all over the board, but over 20-30 years, probably does follow some bellish curve centered somewhere around 149 -165.
Was I pedantic enough? Oh yea, Spencer Lee is just one of nature's freakish bell curve-breaking anomolies.
The overall depth of the weight class given all of D1 then yes I see that point, but I'm referring to the topic that we are all discussing and that's winning a title! If we used your premise then 285 would be at the top of the list on 82's post as "weakest" would it not. We are discussing how tough a weight class is to win and that would include the top 33 at each weight and that is what I was basing my point on. At no time has anyone brought up 285 as a weak weight class to win, there is a reason for that. Where is that kid from Perdue ranked? All the rankings Im looking at rank the top 33, that kid is nowhere near the top 33 in the country!
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No, you don’t know where it’s going. Artradley explained pretty well what I was wondering .
I was asked to go out for wrestling and the coach had me convinced until he said I could start that Saturday. It was Wednesday and what I weighed happened to be a spot that was completely open.
I would have two practices before going out to get killed in maybe the most competitive area in the country.
I opted out, so I just kept working out instead. I was only app 115 lbs then but strong for my size .
And yeah, I really had no other sport options except maybe cross country and I was more a fast twitch strength kind of guy.
Apologies. I thought we were discussing/ranking the weaker weights in 2023. My bad.
No biggie, I’m more of a novice fan. I always respected wrestling but didn’t watch it much until my son got me into it. This was when Sanderson was hired and he brought Taylor to PSU .
I’m an alum of PSU and I started following at that time. I don’t have the knowledge of most posters and I’m curious about things.
I also lived and worked in Iowa a few years after graduation and visited Iowa city a few times to see a friend who was a grad student then.
I value the opinion of more diehard and experienced fans on things like the history and overall structure of that makes sense?
As of now only 4 wrestlers appeared to have won 4 titles. Lee looks like #5. Psu might have their first next season, maybe two.
It’s obviously a level of success and domination that is seldom seen.https://www.fancowrestling.com/multiple-time-ncaa-wrestling-champions/#:~:text=Next%20from%202010%2D2013%20Cornell's,are%20seeking%20their%204th%20titles.
4 four time champs vs 50 three time champs shows the difficulty of accomplishing this . So if all goes well for Lee and I hope it does he becomes just 4 of how many D1 wrestlers? Thousands or more I’d guess.
Because of the free year in 21 for Covid, Starocci could end up as the first and possibly only ever 5 time champ.
This last comment by "random man" pretty much confirms my thoughts from last night but held back posting. PSU fans are simply on the Iowa board posturing for future discussions regarding why their 4/5 timers are "the best". Whether this happens or not is yet to be seen.
They're an interesting lot. It's like they're playing chess while the rest of us are playing checkers.
They're an interesting lot. It's like they're playing chess while the rest of us are playing checkers.
Or, they’re talking wrestling while some are afraid of what may come.
They may simply be looking for another perspective but seems somewhat odd for novice fans. I gave them the benefit of the doubt until the last comment about Starrocci. What does this have to do with the thread topic?
And yet it continues...
And yet it continues...
Like I said , I’m a novice, a psu grad and fan and got into wrestling due to my son’s interest. Btw he was a Lehigh student but a psu fan when they didn’t wrestle each other.
Long term fans have a much broader perspective than I do, and while they will be biased towards their guys I believe they have valuable insights .
I do learn a lot from here and the blue white sight. And while I root for psu and what helps them , I do have a soft spot for Iowa. I enjoyed my time there.
Nothing like a new job having an enough money for a 12 pack of Heilmann’s and 5 39 cent cheeseburgers for game day. If I was lucky maybe I’d see psu but at least I could watch Iowa with my friend . He was a grad student at Iowa and a friend from PSU.
I’d go back to 1985 in a heartwood I could . 🙂 They were good days.
You’re way over thinking things. Really . No one is guaranteed a title , even the two potential PSU 4x champs. Just one injury or a bad match puts you out of that elite club.
From what Lee is doing I see no way he loses but again nothing is 100%.
Like I said artradley hit the mail on the head on what I was trying to ask . I power lifted because I was too small for team sports. I didn’t want to get killed in practice to not play in day football.
We were pretty good then so that was out. Wrestling was an option but we weren’t good and the coach asked me to go out on Wednesday and start that Saturday .
Smack dab in the Middle of maybe the best high school wrestling in the country . Not in a combat spurt lol. But I can see what him and others said to be true. A guy like me only had certain sports options so we probably get fellows of certain height and weight focusing on wrestling .
Some of the best power lifters I knew were former wrestlers . They had great strength per weight and loads of mental toughness . Think about it, all you do is exercise, you don’t have to grapple anymore.
If I had to guess you’ll see many forner wrestlers in cross fit and running in addition to lifting these days. Maybe triathlons too. It’s a lot easier to train for those than wrestle but the lessons you’ve learned will pay off big time in your new activities .
We were pretty good then so that was out. Wrestling was an option but we weren’t good and the coach asked me to go out on Wednesday and start that Saturday .
Smack dab in the Middle of maybe the best high school wrestling in the country . Not in a combat spurt lol. But I can see what him and others said to be true. A guy like me only had certain sports options so we probably get fellows of certain height and weight focusing on wrestling .
Some of the best power lifters I knew were former wrestlers . They had great strength per weight and loads of mental toughness . Think about it, all you do is exercise, you don’t have to grapple anymore.
If I had to guess you’ll see many forner wrestlers in cross fit and running in addition to lifting these days. Maybe triathlons too. It’s a lot easier to train for those than wrestle but the lessons you’ve learned will pay off big time in your new activities .
Yah, you're prolly right on the over thinking. Your comments seem genuine but many PSU posters are over here for more than just perspective. I can be the bigger person and find my way around it.
Thanks for the reminder, Dub.
Thanks for the reminder, Dub.
My son wrestled from Second grade through Freshman year in college. After messing around in the weight room for a couple of years in college he got into powerlifting, and now he goes to the gym religiously and has even done a few competitions. He loves it - and it is a real confidence booster when you walk into a gym and starting throwing around impressive amounts of weights. Good for the physique, as well!
I truly want to learn, there’s no reason for me to troll. Maybe I’d get into a little back and forth and I think that’s ok.
You fellows might know Lee better than your average PSU fan. Either way a 4 x is a rare combination of skill, drive, mental toughness , and I’ll say a little luck yo accomplish.
One ill timed injury could cost the the ncaa tournament. If you’re on a 13-0 Iowa Hawkeye football team and you win the two playoffs you’re still a champ even if you missed those games due to a freak injury .
You would be a national champ if your team wins but could miss out on the individual title , obviously .
All of this adds up to making the accomplishment even greater .
As an aside, one year I wanted to watch the finals at a bar in Pa. They had multiple tvs so I asked if they could put the finals on one.
A basketball fan was bitching that I wasn’t even watching it but at that time psu wasn’t wrestling and I had to explain to him the individual Titus thing and the team.
It was 2013 btw and Oklahoma State was the runner up. He got it then and we got along but man, wrestling fans are few and far between so talking shop is fun for me.
I got lucky and got two nice tickets for Friday’s match vs Michigan and recently made a friend who’s a fan.
The wife thinks wrestling is boring, lol! 🤷♂️ You’d think you’d have people jumping at the other ticket , nope lol.
So thanks for the information and good luck to the Hawkeyes .
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