Russia about to attack Ukraine

[seminole97]

The Afghanistan thing is over. If it happened a year from now it would have been then. No scenario would work. A government we spent fortunes supporting a government that did not want us or believe in our mission. Corruption and wasted resources through a typical American fiasco spanning 20 years. Biden pulled the plug despite furious contempt from the right wing.

Afghanistan was simply another paper bag we couldn't punch our way out of. A dumb mistake created by an inept administration that put this country into a huge hole.

Blame Biden for what he inherited. Nothing would have worked.

I credit Biden for being willing to pull off the band aid and move on.
But it needs to be emphasized the neocon project of international empire isn't a right wing thing.
The neocon project is truly bipartisan.
Obama is the one that put nation building in Afghanistan on steroids, and does anyone think had Hillary been president we'd have set the stage for withdrawal?

 

[ft254]

I credit Biden for being willing to pull off the band aid and move on.
But it needs to be emphasized the neocon project of international empire isn't a right wing thing.
The neocon project is truly bipartisan.
Obama is the one that put nation building in Afghanistan on steroids, and does anyone think had Hillary been president we'd have set the stage for withdrawal?

I agree with the Obama assessment, although I think it was an honest attempt to improve the situation on his part. I don't agree with the Hillary judgement, though it's hypothetical, and we'll never know.

A decision to withdraw would have been a victory to salvage an otherwise political morass. Hillary is politically astute if nothing else, and like Biden, weighing the short-term costs, would know the benefits.

 

[seminole97]

I agree with the Obama assessment, although I think it was an honest attempt to improve the situation on his part. I don't agree with the Hillary judgement, though it's hypothetical, and we'll never know.

I don't think it's useful, or even necessary to question Obama's military interventionist efforts were undertaken with his belief it would 'improve the situation', but given the toll Syria's civil war has taken on the region (and to include Europe, now battling with the refugees), and how Libya's fracture at our hands has destabilized north Africa to a large degree (providing a convenient excuse for more and more 'military partnerships', to combat the problem, right?), we can and should assess the outcomes.

A decision to withdraw would have been a victory to salvage an otherwise political morass. Hillary is politically astute if nothing else, and like Biden, weighing the short-term costs, would know the benefits.

The lady who thought civil wars in Syria and Libya were something America should involve itself in?
Yeah.... no.

 

[Nat Algren]

As Merkel leaves leadership of Germany. JFC

What is this based on? Do you have a link?

 

[franklinman]

After Biden’s Afghanistan debacle, China and Russia know the Biden admin is full of incompetent yokels.

Ya, and they also heard Filthy Dons words, and then did nothing with AFGHAN. All talk, no action.

 

[Nat Algren]

Fortress America, **** em. Europe sold their souls again when they agreed to buy their petroleum from the KGB master.

Are you aware that Russia is the 2nd largest exporter to the US oil market?

Are you aware that Washington has been pressuring Brussels and Berlin to make sure that Gazprom does not get its operator's license to sell natgas, with the result being Europeans will freeze. How did the US respond? US LNG could have gone to our EU allies BUT INSTEAD went to the highest bidder, China.

 

[ft254]

I don't think it's useful, or even necessary to question Obama's military interventionist efforts were undertaken with his belief it would 'improve the situation', but given the toll Syria's civil war has taken on the region (and to include Europe, now battling with the refugees), and how Libya's fracture at our hands has destabilized north Africa to a large degree (providing a convenient excuse for more and more 'military partnerships', to combat the problem, right?), we can and should assess the outcomes.


The lady who thought civil wars in Syria and Libya were something America should involve itself in?
Yeah.... no.

Hillary was President. I didn't know that. I thought she lost to the Orange Turd. Hhmm! Your take on things is so pedestrian.

 

[seminole97]

Hillary was President. I didn't know that. I thought she lost to the Orange Turd. Hhmm! Your take on things is so pedestrian.

For grins, can you quote what I wrote that may have caused that misconception on your part?

I’m not sure how well read you are on these things, but it’s no secret Hillary was the hawk in Obama’s cabinet that pushed American bombs as a solution in multiple countries. People are on the record in this regard.

 

[binsfeldcyhawk2]

Are you aware that Russia is the 2nd largest exporter to the US oil market?

Are you aware that Washington has been pressuring Brussels and Berlin to make sure that Gazprom does not get its operator's license to sell natgas, with the result being Europeans will freeze. How did the US respond? US LNG could have gone to our EU allies BUT INSTEAD went to the highest bidder, China.

What's shakin comrade?

 

[Nat Algren]

What's shakin comrade?

 

[Chishawk1425]

As Merkel leaves leadership of Germany. JFC

Called it

 

[seminole97]

Called it

I gave you the chance to call it, you demurred.
How about now?

Let’s put a date on this pisspants declaration.
Russia is invading Ukraine ’as Merkel leaves leadership of Germany’ by what date?

C’mon, Chistrodamus, let us know if you think by the end of this year, or next year, or 2030, or what exactly.

 

[Titanhawk2]

LOL.
The Russians started building the naval base in Sevastopol in 1772.
It’s been in use by the Russians since 1783.

The Russian claim on Crimea predates our Republic, but ‘too bad we did nothing to keep them from getting a foothold in the Crimea.’

FFS!

FFS! That's like saying France has a claim on half the African continent and the UK has a claim on India and the US. Forget that the Ukraine as a claim as a sovereign nation since 1991 and we didn't shake a stick at Putin when he did it.

 

[lucas80]

@Nat Algren

How many dead do you think your populace will be willing to tolerate?

 

[Nat Algren]

@Nat Algren

How many dead do you think your populace will be willing to tolerate?

I keep you up at night, don't I?

 

[baddog25]

 

[seminole97]

FFS! That's like saying France has a claim on half the African continent and the UK has a claim on India and the US.

I’m simply pointing out the historical ignorance evident in the comment “too bad we did nothing to keep them from getting a foothold in the Crimea.” Russia has maintained military bases in Crimea from centuries ago to this day. We weren’t even a country when they took that foothold. But now we’re supposed to deny it them?

People who think that Crimea is or should be Ukrainian in-spite of the resident population and their desires are historically ignorant.

Forget that the Ukraine as a claim as a sovereign nation since 1991 and we didn't shake a stick at Putin when he did it.

Forget that we fomented a coup to overthrow the elected leader of a closely divided, although distinctly politically/geographically bifurcated country, on Putin’s border?
The idiots at our State Department I guess thought he’d roll over and let us take Russia’s only warm water port with a coup and no response. That was a miscalculation. I fear more miscalculation regarding the national security issues that Russia is willing to go to war for.
We’re all lucky that a steel tempered British officer prevented Wesley Clark from starting WW3 (in Serbia again, of all places!) when we decided to calve Kosovo off of Serbia as a NATO protectorate almost a century after WW1.

The hubris of neocons like Nuland is the biggest threat to peace in our world.

 

[Chishawk1425]

 

[Whiskeydeltadeltatango]

Of all the presidents in my life I least want to go to war with it is Joe Biden. Even Obama had his capacities and Trump was such a dumb **** he would have sent over every ****ing bomb we owned to prove a small dick point.


God help us if we go to war with Russia/china during this administration.

 

[seminole97]

If the Soviets flipped the Mexican government and after that coup the Mexican government wanted to join the Warsaw Pact I wonder how the US would have viewed that.

Would the U.S. do nothing in response to an adversary being able to stockpile weapons on our border?

That’s what is meant by ‘nowhere to retreat’.

I wonder how many Americans know about the last time the U.S. invaded Russia.

 

[Joes Place]

LOL.
The Russians started building the naval base in Sevastopol in 1772.
It’s been in use by the Russians since 1783.

Too bad they gave it back to Ukraine.
No Takesy-Backsies.

 

[Joes Place]

Russia is crumbling from within. Putin needs a distraction from the havoc that years of oligarchs stealing money from the people and now Covid are creating over there.

Starting a war is the easiest way to rally people and re-focus the rage.

 

[Nat Algren]

Too bad they gave it back to Ukraine.
No Takesy-Backsies.

They're not taking it back. The free people of Crimea have spoken and 97% voted to re-join with Russia. Freedom...ain't it a bitch.

 

[Joes Place]

They're not taking it back. The free people of Crimea have spoken

Yes, I'm sure Putin's polling is "reliable", komrade!

 

[Nat Algren]

View embedded media

View embedded media

Russia is crumbling from within. Putin needs a distraction from the havoc that years of oligarchs stealing money from the people and now Covid are creating over there.

Starting a war is the easiest way to rally people and re-focus the rage.

Inflation is at a 40 year high in the US. Biden has a 22% approval rating.

In addition, sadly, America is a dying empire. Washington, knowing that they already forced Moscow into the arms of Beijing, FEARS those 2 connecting with Germany and the EU. Putin spoke of a Europe from Lisbon-Vladivostok in Munich '07. That's why Obama destabilized Ukraine and Biden used his office to gain riches, to stymie the connection of the EAEU. China is the EU's largest trade partner. The Comprehensive Agreement on Investment (CAI) was finalized in principle and was supposed to be consummated this past summer by the respective EU parliaments, but postponed due to US pressure. When that happens, China and to a lesser extent, Russia and Iran, will control the World Island of Eurasia and Africa...connecting 6.5 Billion consumers. Those 3 countries will dominate 75% of the world's resources. Brzezinski wrote about this in The Grand Chessboard. Dying empires are desperate. This is not a unipolar world anymore.

TAIL. WAG. DOG.

 

[Nat Algren]

Yes, I'm sure Putin's polling is "reliable", komrade!

Ok Adolph!

Explaining China’s Position on the Crimea Referendum

China recognizes the complex historical dimensions of the situation in Crimea and remains committed to a diplomatic solution that considers the interests of all parties involved.

carnegieendowment.org

Pre- and post Gallup poll #'s support the 90% of Russian speakers in Crimea.

Crimeans overwhelmingly vote to leave Ukraine and join Russia in contentious referendum​

Crimea referendum: How, why and where next for soon-to-be divided

Country faces a decidedly uncertain future as polls close in peninsula seeking Russian annexation

www.independent.co.uk

 

[Nat Algren]

If the Soviets flipped the Mexican government and after that coup the Mexican government wanted to join the Warsaw Pact I wonder how the US would have viewed that.

Would the U.S. do nothing in response to an adversary being able to stockpile weapons on our border?

That’s what is meant by ‘nowhere to retreat’.

I wonder how many Americans know about the last time the U.S. invaded Russia.

Unfortunately, we will find out soon enough. Biden didn't like how the Nicaraguan election results turned out after our interference. So, he placed sanctions on them, cutting them off economically. So, Ortega ran to China.

 

[Nat Algren]

View embedded media

They don't call him McFail for nothing.

 

[seminole97]

BERLIN, Dec 25 (Reuters) - Senior German and Russian government officials have agreed to a rare in-person meeting next month in an effort to ease political tensions over Ukraine, a German government source said on Saturday.

German Chancellor Olaf Scholz's foreign policy adviser Jens Ploetner and Russia's Ukraine negotiator Dmitry Kozak agreed to meet after a lengthy phone conversation on Thursday, the source said on condition of anonymity.

...

Berlin doubts more than Washington whether Russia actually wants to attack Ukraine and is keen to de-escalate tensions, two government sources told Reuters on condition of anonymity.

 

[Finance85]

I guess Chis needs to move the goalpost, and Biden will need to find somewhere else to wag the dog.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

given the toll Syria's civil war has taken on the region (and to include Europe, now battling with the refugees), and how Libya's fracture at our hands has destabilized north Africa to a large degree (providing a convenient excuse for more and more 'military partnerships', to combat the problem, right?), we can and should assess the outcomes.

My Man on Mars says that from his perspective it looks like destabilization and chaos must have been the objective in all of these ventures.

It's like if we can't own and profit from them, let's make sure no other big powers can benefit.

Very 19th century of us.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

For grins, can you quote what I wrote that may have caused that misconception on your part?

I’m not sure how well read you are on these things, but it’s no secret Hillary was the hawk in Obama’s cabinet that pushed American bombs as a solution in multiple countries. People are on the record in this regard.

As I recall, she was also the main driver behind the US-backed coup in Honduras.

If Hillary were President today, we'd probably be plotting the overthrow of the new leader in Chile. He's doing his best to pretend to be friendly to US businesses, but he may still be too liberal for us.

Unfortunately, Biden hasn't been very good on Latin America so far. So our current government may be looking for another Pinochet to support. We'll see.

 

[lucas80]

Putin's grasp on power is weakening. His popularity is waning. Russia is a mess economically, and the people know how corrupt Putin and his gang are. Quality of life for the average person is getting worse every year under Putin. Covid is raging out of control. Putin has fiddled with their constitution in order to keep power.
Ginning up a war, or the threat of a war, is about all Putin has right now.

 

[Finance85]

Ginning up a war, or the threat of a war, is about all Putin has right now.

Sounds almost like North Korea, China, Iran, and the US, doesn't it?!

 

[lucas80]

Sounds almost like North Korea, China, Iran, and the US, doesn't it?!

Under Trump, yes.

 

[lucas80]

I saw Russia expert Michael McFaul on Lib TV today and he said he doesn’t believe Putin is worried about the expansion of NATO. It’s the expansion of democracy into Ukraine that scares Putin. That is what he is desperately trying to fight off. He knows that democracy will start to leak into Russia, spelling the end to his kleptocracy.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

I saw Russia expert Michael McFaul on Lib TV today and he said he doesn’t believe Putin is worried about the expansion of NATO. It’s the expansion of democracy into Ukraine that scares Putin. That is what he is desperately trying to fight off. He knows that democracy will start to leak into Russia, spelling the end to his kleptocracy.

There's something called Lib TV?

 

[Nat Algren]

I saw Russia expert Michael McFaul on Lib TV today and he said he doesn’t believe Putin is worried about the expansion of NATO. It’s the expansion of democracy into Ukraine that scares Putin. That is what he is desperately trying to fight off. He knows that democracy will start to leak into Russia, spelling the end to his kleptocracy.

They don't call him McFail for nothing. Why did the USA overthrow the democratically elected government of Yanukovych in a blatant coup if they love democracy so much?

As told by this 27 year CIA veteran who knows how to cut through BS, as he fed the Daily Briefing to GHWB every morning:

• Feb. 1, 2008: Amid rumors of NATO planning to offer membership to Ukraine, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov warns U.S. Ambassador William Burns that “Nyet Means Nyet.” Russia will react strongly to any move to bring Ukraine or Georgia into NATO. Thanks to WikiLeaks, we have Burns’s original cable from embassy in Moscow.
• April 3, 2008: Included in Final Declaration from NATO summit in Bucharest: “NATO welcomes Ukraine’s and Georgia’s Euro-Atlantic aspirations for membership in NATO. We agreed today that these countries will become members of NATO.”
• Early September 2013: Putin helps Obama resist neocon demands to do “shock and awe” on Syria; Russians persuade President Bashar al-Assad to give up Syrian army chemical weapons for destruction on a U.S. ship outfitted for chemical weapons destruction. Neocons are outraged over failing to mousetrap Obama into attacking Syria.

Meanwhile in Ukraine

• Dec. 2013: In a speech to the U.S.-Ukraine Foundation, Assistant Secretary of State for European Affairs Victoria Nuland says: “The United States has supported Ukraine’s European aspirations. … We have invested over $5 billion to assist Ukraine in these and other goals that will ensure a secure and prosperous and democratic Ukraine.”
• Feb. 4, 2014: Amid rioting on the Maidan in Kiev, YouTube carries Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland’s last minute instructions to U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt regarding the U.S. pick for new Ukrainian prime minister, Arseniy Yatsenyuk (aka “Yats”) and other plans for the imminent coup d’etat in Kiev. When Pyatt expresses concern about EU misgivings about mounting a coup, Nuland says “**** the EU.” She then apologizes to the EU a day or two later — for the profanity, not for the coup. She also says that Vice President Joe Biden will help “glue this thing together”, meaning the coup.
• Feb. 22, 2014: Coup d’etat in Kyiv; appropriately labeled “the most blatant coup in history” by George Friedman, then President of the widely respected think-tank STRATFOR.
• Feb. 23, 2014: The date that NATO, Western diplomats, and the corporate media have chosen – disingenuously – as the beginning of recent European history, with silence about the coup orchestrated in Kyiv the day before. President Vladimir Putin returns to Moscow from the winter olympics in Sochi; confers with advisers about Crimea, deciding — unlike Khrushchev in 1954 — to arrange a plebiscite to let the people of Crimea, most of whom strongly opposed the coup regime, decide their own future.
• March 16, 2014: The official result from the voters in Crimea voted overwhelmingly for independence from Ukraine and to join Russia. Following the referendum, Crimea declared independence from Ukraine and asked to join the Russian Federation. On March 18, the Russian Federal Assembly ratified the incorporation of Crimea into Russia.
• In the following days, Putin made it immediately (and publicly) clear that Yatsenyuk’s early statement about Ukraine joining NATO and – even more important – the U.S./NATO plans to deploy ABM systems around Russia’s western periphery and in the Black Sea, were the prime motivating forces behind the post-referendum re-incorporation of Crimea into Russia.

RAY McGOVERN: Ukraine For Dummies

There was no excuse for Congress' ignorance of Ukraine. Here is a guide to help them. By Ray McGovern Special to Consortium News At Wednesday's debut of the impeachment hearings there was one issue upon which both sides of the aisle seemed to agree, and it was a comic-book caricature of reality

consortiumnews.com

I'll be waiting for your tiresome and witless replies of algorithm, what time is it in St. Pete's, bot, troll blah, blah, blah.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

God help us if we go to war with Russia/china during this administration.

In ANY administration.

Real war (as opposed to nibbling around the edges) would be a disaster for all involved, and maybe the whole world.

We - meaning the major powers - now use many areas around the world the way the Nazis, Italians and Soviets used Spain before WWII.

That should scare us.

 

[lucas80]

They don't call him McFail for nothing. Why did the USA overthrow the democratically elected government of Yanukovych in a blatant coup if they love democracy so much?

As told by this 27 year CIA veteran who knows how to cut through BS, as he fed the Daily Briefing to GHWB every morning:

• Feb. 1, 2008: Amid rumors of NATO planning to offer membership to Ukraine, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov warns U.S. Ambassador William Burns that “Nyet Means Nyet.” Russia will react strongly to any move to bring Ukraine or Georgia into NATO. Thanks to WikiLeaks, we have Burns’s original cable from embassy in Moscow.
• April 3, 2008: Included in Final Declaration from NATO summit in Bucharest: “NATO welcomes Ukraine’s and Georgia’s Euro-Atlantic aspirations for membership in NATO. We agreed today that these countries will become members of NATO.”
• Early September 2013: Putin helps Obama resist neocon demands to do “shock and awe” on Syria; Russians persuade President Bashar al-Assad to give up Syrian army chemical weapons for destruction on a U.S. ship outfitted for chemical weapons destruction. Neocons are outraged over failing to mousetrap Obama into attacking Syria.

Meanwhile in Ukraine

• Dec. 2013: In a speech to the U.S.-Ukraine Foundation, Assistant Secretary of State for European Affairs Victoria Nuland says: “The United States has supported Ukraine’s European aspirations. … We have invested over $5 billion to assist Ukraine in these and other goals that will ensure a secure and prosperous and democratic Ukraine.”
• Feb. 4, 2014: Amid rioting on the Maidan in Kiev, YouTube carries Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland’s last minute instructions to U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt regarding the U.S. pick for new Ukrainian prime minister, Arseniy Yatsenyuk (aka “Yats”) and other plans for the imminent coup d’etat in Kiev. When Pyatt expresses concern about EU misgivings about mounting a coup, Nuland says “**** the EU.” She then apologizes to the EU a day or two later — for the profanity, not for the coup. She also says that Vice President Joe Biden will help “glue this thing together”, meaning the coup.
• Feb. 22, 2014: Coup d’etat in Kyiv; appropriately labeled “the most blatant coup in history” by George Friedman, then President of the widely respected think-tank STRATFOR.
• Feb. 23, 2014: The date that NATO, Western diplomats, and the corporate media have chosen – disingenuously – as the beginning of recent European history, with silence about the coup orchestrated in Kyiv the day before. President Vladimir Putin returns to Moscow from the winter olympics in Sochi; confers with advisers about Crimea, deciding — unlike Khrushchev in 1954 — to arrange a plebiscite to let the people of Crimea, most of whom strongly opposed the coup regime, decide their own future.
• March 16, 2014: The official result from the voters in Crimea voted overwhelmingly for independence from Ukraine and to join Russia. Following the referendum, Crimea declared independence from Ukraine and asked to join the Russian Federation. On March 18, the Russian Federal Assembly ratified the incorporation of Crimea into Russia.
• In the following days, Putin made it immediately (and publicly) clear that Yatsenyuk’s early statement about Ukraine joining NATO and – even more important – the U.S./NATO plans to deploy ABM systems around Russia’s western periphery and in the Black Sea, were the prime motivating forces behind the post-referendum re-incorporation of Crimea into Russia.

RAY McGOVERN: Ukraine For Dummies

There was no excuse for Congress' ignorance of Ukraine. Here is a guide to help them. By Ray McGovern Special to Consortium News At Wednesday's debut of the impeachment hearings there was one issue upon which both sides of the aisle seemed to agree, and it was a comic-book caricature of reality

consortiumnews.com

I'll be waiting for your tiresome and witless replies of algorithm, what time is it in St. Pete's, bot, troll blah, blah, blah.

I don’t need to. Your adaptive programming is doing it for me. It’s evolving. It still cranks out a long response of unrelated drivel, though. That’s the beauty of a good disinformation campaign. Just keep cranking out the drivel and hope it takes root.
Putin is terrified of losing power. His response to issues relating to Ukraine show an emotional reaction.