Because some people are religious and we believed it to be a foundational aspect of this great nation? Did that really need to be said?
Seven Muslim employees are fired at Ariens........
- Thread starter iammrhawkeyes
- Start date
Because some people are religious and we believed it to be a foundational aspect of this great nation? Did that really need to be said?
Iirc there were quite a few people supporting the idea of KY Kim, if not Kim herself. I had many arguments over religious liberty and her "persecution" on here, Tradition maybe?
I don't think that is my point, I think that is your (or whoever argued it) point; that the 32 can be equated to the 7. Even if the 32 claimed to not have their religious freedom curtailed, the 7 can. My real point is that we simply CANNOT question it. If you question religious beliefs than there is no point in protecting them. We could just delineate certain standards of religion and just protect those, but we don't because we have long recognized subjective religious needs.
Sure, your theory might be right, or they felt their religion required it. Again, my point is that you can't really question it. We can only look at reasonableness (which necessarily carries subjective judgment along the lines of what you describe).
Finally, YOU (nor HROT) get to establish other people's religion nor their expression as you posit.
Of course it is, unless you believe that there were always breaks and nothing like that has ever changed in a factory.
Everybody opposing change has always claimed that X won't work, that isn't how we operate, until it is actually put in place and they somehow keep on keeping on. You know what is evidence of that? This factory, admittedly, put an extra break in place, they obviously didn't think the world would stop turning. Now their allegation is that it was, in fact, disruptive. I'd have to see more to determine whether it was or not, I guess I'm alone in questioning the firers conclusory claim. It shouldn't be difficult.
They tried a break, it didn't work. It is probably time for you to get an actual job as a lawyer instead of trolling around here.
They were hired to work...if they want to pray let them go to a mosque or pray on their own. I drive cars part time in retirement and you can bet I pray in the car I'm driving every day.
I'm not sure why you keep ignoring this: They say it didn't work. Have you been provided details that this thread hasn't? Seriously, I'm happy to read them. I've made my position clear, it is hard to determine whether there was disruption from a conclusive claim.
Is this really where you want to go with this? Removing religious protections from all employment?
Now you've swung the pendulum to the opposite side of KY Kim, have you thought that through?
You're trolling. I get it.
You've obviously never set foot in an operations setting.
All opinion and no real world experience.
Do you teach?
You realize they actually implemented a 3rd break, right? Did they have no experience as well? Again, every employer ever who has resisted change makes the exact same non-substantive argument.
According to your hyperbole, the disruption must have been like this:
The article I read said they actually tried to accommodate them for a period of time when they were first hired but found the disruption to be to great. Now if that is proven to be false then I think the workers have a case if it is accurate then I would side with the company and say they don't have a case.
That was my entire hypothetical, literally the post I made. Here, let me repost it:
Ok, question for y'all:
From the article, "The Brillion company allowed the Muslim employees to leave their work stations a third time to accommodate prayers at first. The company then claimed the prayers disrupted production at the lawn mower and snow blower manufacturer."
If the company can not actually support the "disrupted production" claim, would you change your stance? Or is this simply, "They are the boss, they can do what the want"?
Thank you for answering. I think it to be the correct, reasonable response. If there was no actual, quantifiable disruption then the company would be in the wrong. There are though some posters who still disagree, that employers can simply make decisions like this because they are the employer.
What if they hired Jake to come in and teach the mooslims how to pray properly? Boom, you're welcome Ariens.
You realize they actually implemented a 3rd break, right? Did they have no experience as well? Again, every employer ever who has resisted change makes the exact same non-substantive argument.
According to your hyperbole, the disruption must have been like this:
In a linked value chain 21 operators can easily stop the entire plant.
Too many people with real world operations experience have said such. Listen.
I'm glad your knowledge of what was occurring in that specific plant (none whatsoever) allows you to determine, objectively, which is correct while simultaneously denigrating anybody else.
Brilliant as usual 22.
You're unqualified to even debate this due to your ignorance of Ariens' business concerns.
You just want to push the easy button and scream bigotry.
But, I'm sure many have realized that ignorance doesn't seem to discourage you from debate.
Here is what you have avoided the ENTIRE TIME and continue to do so:
Ariens, themselves, put in place the extra break. They did, it, they, those with experience (presumably) and decision-making power. They obviously didn't think the world would explode.
Then they, again they, allege that it was disruptive.
I have really done one thing in this thread, asked how it was disruptive (and more importantly, would opinions change if not).
You've made pretty clear you don't give a f*** if it is disruptive, therefore none of that matters. Not once have I screamed bigotry nor anything of the like. You are upset that I even questioned their allegation that was supported by no facts.
How about I say that Christians are disrupting my local brick-laying, can I just say so and fire them? Or would you demand I explain who, why, how the disruption is taking place?
If your post above is correct, you are disqualified as well, so why did you post it?
Dear lord you're special.
They don't "allege" that it was disruptive. It was.
As has been stated many times, but you refuse to hear, is that 21 people taking an extra break in a linked value chain is the same as everyone taking an extra break.
Over the course of a year that is millions of lost dollars.
Let alone, every non-Muslim complaining about the special treatment the Muslims were receiving by being accommodated and extra break.
Not only the cost impact is negative, but shop floor morale is negatively impacted.
"If there was no negative impact, would I object?"
You seriously need an answer to that?
Ok...
Of course not.
But, these aren't clerks in library that can drift off and talk to their imaginary sky deity without impact. It is a flow dependent operation that relies on uninterrupted cycles.
Wait, what? I don't think you understand how this works.
Were you there? If not you can't attest to its disruptiveness.
You don't work there, you have never worked there, you have no idea what went on, what goes on, etc. Why you think you know, yet that I don't, I have no idea, because it is an absurd notion.
I've asked numerous times for further reports on how it was disruptive, not once has it been posted. Seriously, what do you base your personal knowledge on?
Now, you took two pages of complaining to answer my very first hypothetical: You would not approve of an employer getting rid of a work break, used by religious for prayer, if it wasn't disruptive. IMO, that is the only reasonable approach.
Maybe you forgot that you wrote this:
"Simply pointing to people who either a) believe differently (i.e. not needing 3 prayers) or b) giving it up as proof that the others shouldn't need it either seems silly."
You certainly seemed to be implying that the 32 voluntarily gave up some of their prayers.
Let's take a look at the current Muslim prayer schedule for Brillion, WI.
The first prayer is Fajr. It needs to be done between dawn and sunrise. Dawn today in Brillion was 5:45am and sunrise was at 7:07am. Assuming their shift starts around 6 or 7 o'clock, they could knock that one out in the prayer room just before clocking in for the day.
The second prayer is Dhuhr, the midday prayer. This starts immediately after the sun crosses the celestial meridian, which today was at 12:07, and needs to be done before the Asr prayer. The Muslims could cross Dhuhr off their list at lunchtime while the infidels are microwaving Hot Pockets and playing euchre.
The third prayer is Asr, the afternoon prayer. The start time for Asr today in Brillion was 2:43 and it needed to be completed before sunset. This could be done during their afternoon break, or even after their shift ends if they are off at 3:30 like a lot of factory workers.
The fourth prayer is Maghrib, the sunset prayer. That started today in Brillion at 5:06pm and needed to be finished before twilight at 6:29pm. I would think most workers probably were already off work by that time unless they work second shift or are putting in a lot of overtime.
The fifth prayer is the Isha'a, the night prayer. It starts at twilight and ends at midnight.
So as you can see, the average worker probably could satisfy his Islamic prayer requirements with only lunch and one afternoon break. I'm not really sure why some of them need three breaks. although I suppose their shifts might be different and of course prayer times change with the seasons.
Good points, but you still don't get to determine and set other people's religious beliefs. At least you shouldn't be able to. Good points nonetheless.
What makes you think I'm setting or determining other people's religious beliefs? I just outlined the daily prayer requirements they are invoking and showed how they could easily be incorporated into the construct of a typical factory work schedule. It sounds like the company has been reasonable and 32 of the 53 Muslim workers are being reasonable and they have worked out a plan that satisfies all parties. 21 of the workers apparently weren't as reasonable and/or simply didn't want to keep building lawn mowers and snow blowers for a living.
As I said earlier, it wouldn't surprise me if at least a few of these guys quit their job simply because they smelled an opportunity to make some easy cash with a civil liberties lawsuit.
Damn. If it was that obvious to those who understand this type of business, one has to wonder why they even attempted to add the extra break in the first place? It's almost as if it wasn't so obvious and they thought it might actually work. I'd be willing to write a letter of recommendation, I think you've got upper management written all over you, and to be honest Ariens needs you.
Your last line might be right, your penultimate as well.
But your lengthy description of how they pray certainly appears to determine how they must or should pray, something I don't think you can really even argue.
But, as I said, good points.
Why are you such a bigot? All Christians agree about how best to worship, why would you suggest that Muslims are incapable of this same level of peaceful cohesion?
I see what you did there. We Iwegians aren't as dumb as Cornhuskers and that's even accounting for the Clone population we have to carry.
I'm happy they made the attempt. It was the right thing to do.
Failure is not surprising to anyone with cognitive ability.
Raglefant, I think unwittingly, raises a decent point. One of the reasons that Christians do get along so well, despite their many differences, is that this great nation has, basically, battered them in to submission, to give up their earliest and strongest held traditions. It is part of why Muslims so frighten us, they haven't given those up yet, they haven't yet assimilated in to our religiously-lazy lifestyle.
And this is NOT an insult on Christians, nor any other religion, just an observation. It is much easier to be religious now than 200 years ago, for that I am thankful.
And this is NOT an insult on Christians, nor any other religion, just an observation. It is much easier to be religious now than 200 years ago, for that I am thankful.
Parser. You've shielded your alt handle cleverly for a while now. However, you tipped your hand in this thread.
You tennor of argument is the same.
As is your lack of practical business/economic understanding.
So you admit you have no knowledge of that plant, got it, everything I posted about your drivel appears to be accurate.
At any point, feel free to post the disruption that occurred. Difference between us is that I'm willing to read, discus, and form an opinion with new evidence. I have withheld judgment, affirming that I can't decide whether the employer's actions were reasonable until I know what the disruption was and to what extent.
I've posted many times before, if it was that Islamic call to prayer noise played over loudspeakers I would have put a stop to it as well.
Check the lengthy thread we had a few days ago on this topic. You took a beating in this one, but by golly you kept on coming back for the next round. Ariens is a business, and their only obligation is to make a reasonable allowance for religious practices. You keep suggesting that Ariens change their entire production facility to meet the desires of a very small number of employees.
Feel free to post that suggestion, as it wasn't made. If anything I pointed out what Ariens chose to do themselves, not something that I invented.
I asked for any input on what the disturbance was, the only response citing anything was people saying I missed a previous thread. No postings from that thread nor any other article nor anything else. Feel free to post the disruption, it doesn't have to be 22.
Edit to add: Damn, that was a long thread: https://iowa.forums.rivals.com/threads/muslims-denied-prayer-breaks.84817/
The OP from that thread added this:
"The best solution is to stay with the policy we have had for many years, which is two scheduled breaks during each shift. ... Those 10-minute breaks should allow enough time for prayer, if someone wants to pray," said company president Dan Ariens.
The problem with unscheduled prayer breaks, according to the company, is that if even one person walks away from their work station, it can disrupt production.
"If I am on a team of 10 assemblers, and two of them clock out for a prayer break, all 10 people have to stop," Ariens said.
Over a period of a year, that would cost the company more than $1 million in lost time, according to Ariens.
I see the word "can" and then a hypothetical along with a hypothetical analytical value. The last two are good if the practice is never attempted, but it was, so there should be real-world results.
At least how I read it they weren't citing anything that actually happened.
But this does add more than the OP in this thread, kind of silly I had to get it myself considering how many posts 22 went through arguing sideways on it.
Last edited:
You have no knowledge of the plant either Parser.
One of us has at least spent a couple decades in that environment.
You are a supporting actor in life's real experiences, at best.
Major difference: I never implied I did nor knew the facts. You posted as fact, as if you had knowledge, which you now admit you did and do not.
It's a math thing.(I know that makes you uncomfortable)
If 21 people disrupt a value chain of 200 people for 15 minutes a day, at a fully loaded variable wage rate of ~ $25 an hour for 280 working days a year...
Math.
Do it.
It isn't a math problem it is an English problem. You inserted a word to force your conclusion: disrupt. That is the only and entire question, is it actually a disruption. Why is that complicated?
I'm not disputing that a disruption would be a problem ... I am inquiring whether there actually was a disruption. I'm not sure why all of your responses simply repeat that.
You said I didn't understand the impact.
Do the math.
What's your answer.
It's a 7th grade problem.
Again, I didn't determine how they must or should pray. The Five Pillars of Islam, as described in the Hadith of Gabriel, specify how they must and should pray. If you're going to claim that your Islamic faith requires you to pray five times a day then you sort of need to stick to the schedule that is well-documented and hasn't changed in well over a thousand years. You don't get to just make up your own customized personal prayer schedule.
You are hilarious! We cannot question it? LOL. A good little totalitarian you are but I do like you. Hugs. Are you a PD?
