Is that confirmed? Cobe seems much longer. Just curious.
Shane Griffith
- Thread starter Holm145
- Start date
You listed 7 teams that are separated by 19.5 points. There isn't a clear number 2 here because there's no way to predict injuries, wrestlers who somehow perform better compared to last year or others who regress. Add all of that in a bag and shake it up and you have a whole lot of maybe in the 2-8 places.
LOL so now we have PSU fans on the Iowa board arguing that Iowa isn’t even #2.
You losers’ obsession with our program knows no bounds.
1.) year in and year out Iowa is WAY more consistent than ANY of those teams. Just count the top 5’s and team trophies between them.
2.) the other teams simply don’t have the room for improvement and I even said why. Vito can’t do better. Foca will be lucky to do the same. O’Toole can’t do better. Elam is similar to Foca.
3.). Iowa simply has the room and the tools to bump their score the most. Ayala and Chittum should be AA’s. Kennedy could definitely as well.
4,). Injuries are an argument that could even be used against PSU if you want to go that way. But, you don’t predict based on them. It’s a caveat that applies to all or none.
Now, I do think Cornell can beat them. However, this argument is about should instead of could. Simply put, Iowa SHOULD finish ahead of everyone but PSU based on the lineups I listed…
Oh, we’re #2, Bub, and don’t you forget it.
Really wish he hadn’t gotten injured(shoulder) last season. Really think he could have scored a few more points at ncaa’s and more importantly get in a full freestyle season to have a shot at making a leap. Kid is fun to watch and had some great wins. I don’t doubt chittum is better at both weights regardless just wondering if chittum gets more hardware at 49 than 57.
I don't see a lot of difference between the two weights as far as the field goes. Whatever Chittum feels is optimal for him to perform his best is probably the way to go.
Well, let’s see. One PSU fan made a comment that the race for 2nd is not a lock for any particular team — I don’t think that equates to multiple fans arguing that Iowa isn’t #2.
Even if that single fan was arguing that position . . . history over the past 10+ years tells us that Iowa doesn’t exactly have the greatest track record for placing 2nd.
On paper they may be #2 in some people’s minds (factoring in expectations for Ayala and Chittum), but based on an objective criterion like returning points, Iowa currently sits well below 2nd (as @MSU158 noted). So there is that. I happen to believe Michigan is a legitimate contender for #2, though losing Lamer would be a blow.
Regardless, the matches need to be wrestled, and guys need to stay healthy enough to meet their paper rankings. That seems pretty pertinent to Iowa, considering history.
So in the end, I’m not sure how questioning whether Iowa will finish 2nd makes someone a “loser”.
I am pointing out that there isn't a clear number 2 next year because the returning points that separate 2-8 total 19.5.
Much can happen with those seven teams that shuffle the placings around in next year's tournament .
People get confused with English. First , I'm talking about next year. With 7 teams separated by 19.5 returning points next year's placing look very competitive in 2-8.
It doesn't take much to shuffle those spots when you look at 7 teams with 10 wrestlers competing.
Who knows where they will be at at the start of and finish of the tournament?
He’s going full on Chicken Little on us there….. I predict that since we have the best coaches in the country everything will be fine
but the sky is falling……Drove by the new wrestling facility couple days ago….. lets slap a roof on that bad boy and roll the mats out…..LFG!!!
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How about this bet? Since you say 7 teams are all interchangeable, I will take Iowa over at least 5 of the other 6. Once we agree on who the other 6(obviously excluding PSU) are, if 2 or more of them finish ahead of Iowa at NCAA's you win. If Iowa finishes behind no more than 1 of them at NCAA's, I win. Loser pays $100 to HWC. You in?
I mean, if they are so interchangeable, the odds for at least 2 of 6 to beat them should be HEAVILY in your favor. This is a bet you can't refuse, right?
Wasn’t your position stated as, essentially, that there is no team — other than PSU —that should finish ahead of Iowa? That sure sounded like you were banking on them taking 2nd, and now you want to make a bet that they just finish higher than 4th? If you’re really standing behind you original narrative, you’d bet they finish no worse than 2nd.
Look, my response was to him stating that they are basically interchangeable with 6 other teams. If he wants to pick one(other than PSU) and I pick one I am open to that as well. But, I am not going to give him the field.
I did say SHOULD not WOULD. Giving him 75 teams and me getting 1 isn't exactly a bet in may favor, is it? But, for someone to say they are equal to 6 other teams, I would say I am still favoring him SIGNIFICANTLY by his only needing 2 of those 6 to beat Iowa, don't ya think?
Not even close, I am a lifelong Hawkeye sports fan who lives out of state. Its a lot easier to see what is in front of your face without black and gold glasses at all times.
I'm sure both you manbabies have me ignored so you won't respond, but what that I said do you disagree with?
We got blasted by 55 pts last season
For the 2nd straight year have zero national champions (and we all know besides Spencer, recent history is NOT on our side)
Iowa has a brand
Watching PSU guys go 4/4 while we went 0/2 sucked as a fan
Iowa fans did not go to bed on Saturday night in March of 2021 happy
Iowa's current coaching staff is bottom 1/2 of all staffs with regards to recruiting -- This is probably the hottest take I agree, not saying our staff can't coach, just that it cannot recruit. And recruiting has proven to be a pretty significant part of the calculus when it comes to winning individual and team titles.
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First off, Iowa went 1 for 3 in 2021 and won a FRICKING championship after 11 years waiting. Any Iowa fan that didn’t go to bed happy that night is a full on MORAN.
As far as recruiting goes, Bottom half of all staffs? You lost ANY credibility with that statement. MSU recruits better than close to half the programs. Do you want to compare rosters?
Look, PSU recruits so ridiculous well that they simply aren’t a fair litmus test. Only tOSU comes close to recruiting as well and that is sporadic. After that, Iowa is far ahead of anyone not named Michigan or Cornell. Even OkState is struggling to keep up now.
Would I like to see Iowa land more blue chips? Of course. But, they are still EASILY a top 5 team in recruiting…
I do not gamble, I see no reason to wager my money on something outside of my control .
But maybe I should take your bet after what has transpired over the last 24 hours? Bet still good?
This is why you don't bet on things you can't influence. Everyone's super duper analysis smarty pants thinking is rife with bias and subject to the real world slapping it in the face .
And if I bet it's not for charity , it's for my gain. Again, I don't bet on such things.
I didn't say they're interchangeable by the way if you go back and read it.
r. With 7 teams separated by 19.5 returning points next year's placing look very competitive in 2-8.
It doesn't take much to shuffle those spots when you look at 7 teams with 10 wrestlers competing.
Who knows where they will be at at the start of and finish of the tournament?
Then there is this:
You listed 7 teams that are separated by 19.5 points. There isn't a clear number 2 here because there's no way to predict injuries, wrestlers who somehow perform better compared to last year or others who regress. Add all of that in a bag and shake it up and you have a whole lot of maybe in the 2-8 places.
Show me where I said they are interchangeable?
When you say to just throw them in a bag and shake it up, by definition you are saying they are interchangeable.
Oh, and I even explained that I was only going off the rosters themselves, since there is no way to guess outside factors. Sadly, it looks like they may now have been crushed by some.
I would have happily taken the bet up until last night. Hell, if the lineup doesn’t change(I wasn’t figuring Ferraris anyway), I would still offer it. Obviously, if Chittum is gone that changes things…
Not really. What he is saying is that the teams are close enough on paper (using returning points as a measure) and that there are enough uncontrolled variables that he can’t conclude a clear favorite for 2nd place.
I have to take this as proving @bourbon n blues point. Despite his unwillingness to wager, the bet having nothing to do with powerlifting, and his admitted newbieness of freestyle, I am declaring him the unofficial winner.
Chittum had zero returning points, so he was a non-factor as a far as the 19.5 point span went. Furthermore, Chittum's departure is exactly the kind of random event of which @bourbon n blues spoke which made 2-8 Shake 'N Bake-able.
Lol, whatever you guys say. I love being told what I personally think on an Iowa board by PSU fans. I even moreso like how you guys come to each others' rescues at every opportunity. That is one thing I will give you guys credit for. You guys are more dedicated to each other, even if you are wrong AND it is in the wrong place, than even most of the Iowa fans are here with each other...
I do not speculate on things out of my control. And with 7 teams close together on returning points, 19.5 separating the field top to bottom, it doesn't take much to upset the apple cart ten months from now. That's all. There's nothing wrong with saying I do not know now, I just know there's a lot of time from now to then.
Years ago Roger Angell wrote about the Reds beating the Yankees in the 1976 series. He talked about how if you don't want luck to factor in the equation you need to dominate your opponent so mush that that random chance can't play a part in your loss.
When teams are so close, they are by definition close, and small changes can drastically change outcomes. It's called crap we did not account for when we wuz figgering stuff out. Strong opinions or bets don't move the universe one way or another
All I said is things are close and it's too early to think one way or another. Your opinion is fine, mine is I do not know, many things can happen yet so I'm waiting and seeing what happens. I do not see how that is some controversial opinion.
But if you want some useless data, here's some: Iowa has finished 4th more often than second since 2010. Four times vs 2. They finished 3rd 3 times vs 2 for second. So speculating on finishing 3 or 4 isn't crazy talk.
But records over championships mean nothing this year because 7 teams are close and a whole lot of things can happen to all parties by then which can move around their placings. I know that's sounds crazy to some people, but that's kind of how things work. I know speculating is fun, but it's also ok to take a wait and see approach. Hence this idiom:
What Does Don’t Count Your Chickens Before They Hatch Mean? - Writing Explained
What does counting your chickens mean? Learn this English idiom along with other words and phrases at Writing Explained. To never count your chickens means…
writingexplained.org
Hey, I don't have an issue with much of what you say. I simply had issue with the context and placement. NONE of what you said changes the fact that Iowa SHOULD have been considered the favorite for 2nd WHEN I said that.All I said is things are close and it's too early to think one way or another. Your opinion is fine, mine is I do not know, many things can happen yet so I'm waiting and seeing what happens. I do not see how that is some controversial opinion.
But if you want some useless data, here's some: Iowa has finished 4th more often than second since 2010. Four times vs 2. They finished 3rd 3 times vs 2 for second. So speculating on finishing 3 or 4 isn't crazy talk.
But records over championships mean nothing this year because 7 teams are close and a whole lot of things can happen to all parties by then which can move around their placings. I know that's sounds crazy to some people, but that's kind of how things work. I know speculating is fun, but it's also ok to take a wait and see approach. Hence this idiom:
What Does Don’t Count Your Chickens Before They Hatch Mean? - Writing Explained
What does counting your chickens mean? Learn this English idiom along with other words and phrases at Writing Explained. To never count your chickens means…writingexplained.org
1.) I listed the likely rosters for all of those teams.
2.) I listed the points returning.
3.) Iowa had multiple guys not counted in the points figured above(Ayala and Chittum) that were VERY LIKELY solid point scorers. The other teams did not. Even Cornell only had Shapiro, but he has to fill in for a 4x NCAA Champ. Mind you, Levi Haines and Van Ness(who really came out of nowhere) are why PSU scored over the 131.5 that I made my other bet based on.
4.)Iowa's history(which I do believe is a quantifiable factor) shows they finished ABOVE ALL of those other teams nearly EVERY year. Yes, they finished 4th and 3rd several times. Still, those other teams USUALLY were still behind them.
Again, my original post you responded to wasn't me saying they WOULD, it was simply SHOULD. My bet offer was simply in regards to how you though you could throw those 7 teams in a bag and draw them out just as easily as picking one. At that point, I figured I would give you pretty good odds needing only 2 of the other 6 to finish ahead of Iowa.
Here is the team history amongst those 7 teams: (The funny part is most of the teams other than PSU that finished ahead of Iowa when they took 3rd or 4th aren't even contenders now-Minnesota and OkState.)
Iowa's record against each team at NCAA's since 2007:
tOSU-11-5, Michigan-14-2, Missouri-15-1, Cornell-14-1, NCState 16-0 and VTech 15-1
Iowa's record against each team at NCAA's since 2007:
tOSU-11-5, Michigan-14-2, Missouri-15-1, Cornell-14-1, NCState 16-0 and VTech 15-1
I'm not a gambler , odds do not mean anything to me because they literally change as we go. And again when so many teams are close I do not see a clear #2 . Iowa could end 2, but so could Michigan or Cornell .
Not that past years matter with this year but Iowa has finished 3 and 4 more often than 2 the last 13 contested years. I say it doesn't matter because we're adding even more in the mix.
I don't worry about things like rankings until it's later in the season in both football and wrestling . You have your own team's health and performance to assess and how others affect yours in head to head competitions.
In wrestling obviously your opponents can beat other opponents individually affecting those individual rankings.
So every year when I see a top 25 or forty football list I roll my eyes and wait for the games .
The problem with many posters is that it’s always “next year “. The problem is “right now “.
A lot of next years lead to , well you know. I'm the kind of guy who's interested in the upcoming year but wait to see what happens.
And yet Iowa is 85-10 against those teams at NCAA’s since Brands took over. Even then, 2 of those are his very first year when they took 8th. Even when they took 4th or 3rd a solid amount of those had Minnesota and/or OkState ahead of them and they aren’t even in contention now.
In this case, when other things are close, I truly believe historical data is very significant. Hell, it’s the main reason people pick PSU even after their lineups change significantly. Iowa overwhelmingly finishes ahead of the other teams year in and year out. tOSU is the only team that has even beat them more than once after 2007 and even that ended 5 years ago.
Yet again, health is a factor for every team, which is why these type of bets usually add some type of caveat to waive the bet due to a significant injury. So, that is why the bet offered was based on the lineups I listed.
Finally, I do respect your stance on gambling. Which is why I said the loser donates to an organization vs. either of us directly benefiting. With that in mind, if 2 of the 6 still do finish ahead of Iowa this upcoming season, I will still donate $100.00 to HWC…
I think we have two diverge mindsets. Years ago I used to look at rankings and actually care about them. Then I came to a conclusion that it's just to get clicks and or readership. It's not bad to talk about however, over the last how many years I found out what actually happens in the end.
This is why I say let's see what happens. I don't even speculate who's second right now. If she made me guess I would say Iowa, Cornell, Michigan, and maybe someone else could potentially in a second I would might be the favorite out of that bunch but honestly I'd have to see Where everyone standing at around conference tournament time.
Over the years, I've watched sports I've seen a football team wiped out by a plane crash, the Russians upset by American college hockey players, multiple other, upsets, injuries, etc. etc. all which affects this stuff, so I always take a wait-and-see approach. Even though my opinion doesn't matter much if I predict a certain team to finish second, I just don't do that type of thing.
To me it's more wishful thinking than anything solid, and there's nothing wrong with wishful thinking. I'll give you this to think about two, years ago, I saw a website, the tracked college football rankings from the preseason to the final poll.
They were trying to determine if there was bias and potentially certain team for overactive or underactive. So at the end of year they had a plus or minus or zero rating. Obviously if you're picked to finish fifth, you get a zero just to clarify.
Notre Dame was one of the most overrated teams over the past how many years they look at it. They were in the negatives. Penn State was one of the most underrated teams. They had a positive rating almost every year. I don't know who else did well, but I believe it might've been the Air Force Academy, or some other school like that that finished multiple places over the pre season rankings.
Now, if we're talking about the top rank teams and say you're Alabama picked one and you finish fourth, I won't consider that really being overrated that top 1 to 5 like I'm saying about the wrestling standings here are all pretty close. So I don't look at it as some Vlog thing if you pick a team one and he finished three. And that's basically what I'm getting out here.
Obviously wrestling is much different, so that's why it's easy to pick Penn State at number one. I mentioned that tragedy with a football team in a plane crash, and that's the only kind of thing that would probably derail a team like Penn State right now. Something extraordinary that just changes things immediately.
So all the other teams in the pack then when I look at it closely, it looks like there's the upper and lower tier of the next 6-7 teams. It wouldn't take much for someone that lower tier to bounce up a place or two or someone in the upper tier to bounce down one or two. So basically that's what I'm getting at.
And honestly, I find a pretty interesting when people lay out the strengths and weaknesses of these teams, because I'm more of a Penn State wrestling fan and an overall wrestling fan. So I get to learn a lot and see different perspectives, and possibly understand the sport a little bit better. I'd say that is a good thing.
I did not want to start a new thread so thought this was as good as any to post in.
Austin Gomez is going to Cliff Keen Wrestling Club. I know he has said he is done competing for NCAA but $ talks. I would bet he is Michigan's starting 149 pounder if healthy next year. I see Jake Woodley 197 from OU was also enrolled as a Michigan student. If he still has a year of eligibility that team will be pretty damn stacked. Here is what it would look like on paper.
125 Deaugistino
133 Ragusin/Cannon
141 Cannon/Ragusin
149 Gomez
157 Lewan
165 Amine/Griffith
174 Griffith/Amine
184 Rogers
197 Woodley
285 Davison
Austin Gomez is going to Cliff Keen Wrestling Club. I know he has said he is done competing for NCAA but $ talks. I would bet he is Michigan's starting 149 pounder if healthy next year. I see Jake Woodley 197 from OU was also enrolled as a Michigan student. If he still has a year of eligibility that team will be pretty damn stacked. Here is what it would look like on paper.
125 Deaugistino
133 Ragusin/Cannon
141 Cannon/Ragusin
149 Gomez
157 Lewan
165 Amine/Griffith
174 Griffith/Amine
184 Rogers
197 Woodley
285 Davison
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