Should churches be allowed to obtain wealth.

[thewop]

If nonprofits show profit over a 5 year running average they should be taxed on the gains.

More struggle to find enough money than have stockpiles put away.

Churches are an easy target (specifically Christian churches) thanks to the televangelists who give them a bad name, but the vast majority of churches have no political agenda. Of course their members tend to lean right because they place biblical principles/family values over secular ideas in priority. While years ago churches had a strong mix of democrat and republican, the shift left by the democratic party has left christians out in the cold with a choice of going along, sitting out, or joining the dark side with the majority of christians.

 

[the24fan]

Ooof, rich church? Send one our way. Our church could really use some money. We had to go to three service times and have started a campaign to build an new auditorium because of the rapid growth. Sadly, most people don't give.

According to our head pastor, there are thousands in attendance each Sunday and we've been able to raise close to $400K for our building fund since May; however, that amount has been raised by only 114 contributors. It's going to be a long climb.

what kind of house does your pastor live in and what kind of car does he drive? You know since you pay him for his services. That's most likely why funds are lagging. People don't want to spend their hard-earned cash on improving the lifestyle of their so-called spiritual leader.
Just as an FYI in case people come at you with the tithing thing.... that requirement came to an end with the end of the Mosaic Law code. Christians were encouraged to give out of their want not out of compulsion.
Jesus' principle of the poor widow at the temple was an excellent example of this.

 

[FAUlty Gator]

Another stupid false equivalency.

Another time where you prove you have no idea what a "False equivalency" is.

 

[Tom Paris]

You have no idea what a true Republican believes. You continually try and view a Republican through the lens of a left leaning statist. A true conservative Republican believes the federal government should protect the citizens through a strong national defense, strong borders and a strong dollar. State and local governments should provide streets, sewers, schools, that teach not indoctrinate, clinics, homeless shelters and a set of fair necessary laws which will allow everyone to achieve their goals and dreams in relative safety.

The federal government is not supposed to run our national healthcare, drug abuse clinics, dictate to private business what they can and cannot produce, prices, etc. There are charities and private organizations for that. Leftists view successful government policy by how many new laws were created or how much money was spent. All those things do is continually take more and more freedom from the citizens.

So please don't tell what Republican won't do, there is a reason for that.

I don't tell what Republicans won't do. They tell me and show me all the time. Their VOTES on bills show me. A TRUE Republican in 2023 is FAR different than a TRUE Republican in 1983 or 2003. A TRUE Republican NOW has shown they are willing to follow an authoritarian rapist conman's lies and attempted coup. So yeah, I think I know how dumbasses like you think. You post on this board all the time.

You just posted right here that Republicans believe in protecting the wealthy. You probably don't realize it, but that's what your 3rd sentence says. Just like we constantly tell you. Protect our wealth and bootstraps for everyone else.

 

[NoleATL]

Sure. Tax them.

Planned Parenthood had $1.3 Billion in tax exempt revenue last year. Them too, right? Or is their “political agenda” ok?

If this is what Planned Parenthood is doing with the money, then yes, I agree with your premise. But, I'm guessing you have posted yet another false equivalency.:

 

[alaskanseminole]

what kind of house does your pastor live in and what kind of car does he drive? You know since you pay him for his services. That's most likely why funds are lagging. People don't want to spend their hard-earned cash on improving the lifestyle of their so-called spiritual leader.

As stated in post #6, he and his wife (a HS teacher) drives mini-van and a mid-sized SUV. They have 4 kids, ages ranging from 10-22. They live in a modest 2-story home about 5 miles or so from mine. People don't spend their "hard earned cash" because they don't understand the law of the harvest. You can read more about that in Tony Evans' book, Horizontal Jesus.

Just as an FYI in case people come at you with the tithing thing.... that requirement came to an end with the end of the Mosaic Law code. Christians were encouraged to give out of their want not out of compulsion.
Jesus' principle of the poor widow at the temple was an excellent example of this.

That is correct. Our church doesn't pass offering plates and they do not preach 10% tithing. Most churches I've attended who do, take the approach that 10% is a good gauge from a self-discipline perspective.

 

[FAUlty Gator]

If this is what Planned Parenthood is doing with the money, then yes, I agree with your premise. But, I'm guessing you have posted yet another false equivalency.:

View embedded media

There is no equivalency to be had. OP said the reason to tax these groups is if they have a "political agenda". They either have one and should be taxed or they don't and should remain tax free. Again, if you want to pretend they don't have a political agenda, that's fine. But you're completely out of it if that really is your take.

 

[BrianNole777]

Osteen can run allowances and travel through his church and he doesn't pay taxes on that. He can have credit cards and expense accounts issued by the church to buy whatever and he can avoid taxes on those. I'm certain it's all very legal since they can afford the best lawyers around.

FTR, here are the details on Lakewood's 2017 finances...

Annual budget of around $90 million. This info is from their 2017 fiscal year (ended on March 31, 2017) statement:

$31.7 million on its weekly services and programs

$6.7 million was spent on the church's Night of Hope events

$25.1 million on its television ministry

$11.5 million for general and administrative expenses

$11.9 million for fundraising

The remaining $1.2 million was spent on mission and outreach.

Joel Osteen is one of a small percentage of clergy that's a millionaire pastor even though he does make it from his books.

Most pastors and clergy make much LESS than other heads of large organizations, even "non-profits."

Our atheist country ONLY judges Christian clergy by their worst, even though the vast majority are doing good in a culture that hates them.

 

[alaskanseminole]

Our atheist Way too many in this country ONLY judge Christian clergy by their worst, even though the vast majority are doing good in a country that hates them.

Had to make a slight tweak so I could post this gif.

 

[LuciousBDragon]

This. The pastors shouldn't be living in freaking multi million dollar mansions. Using God to grift.

Can you find the # of pastors living in mansions and put that number over the total # of congregations?

I think you’ll find the resulting number to be…….amazingly low. Which begs the question of why are you so focused on the super low number and not the other number?

 

[TonyTheTiger.1865]

My opinion on religions , not church’s which implies just Christians, has changed. I believe they should be taxed.

 

[LuciousBDragon]

Why do people confuse donations with generating revenue? Some fundamental business principals are missing from OP and this thread.

The money from donations has already been taxed. Many in this thread are promoting double-taxation (just because they disagree with certain groups).

Double-taxation can have some nasty unintended consequences. Put down the emotion and think through what you’re proposing. Additionally, it is just stupid to craft policy that affects only 0.1 - 5%.

As Obi-Wan said: “These are not the droids you’re looking for.”

 

[hexumhawk]

Why not? Our politicians do so why not them? On top of it, politicians are stealing out money, not donated money.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

Why should churches be allowed to sit on huge amounts of cash and be allowed tax exempt status? To further a political agenda. I have a rich catholic sister who I asked u think jesus js hanging out with u.. show me where he is frolicking with the rich on a beach somewhere

Are you asking if they should be able to as a matter of policy or morality?

As a matter of policy they shouldn't be able to spend on politics. Neither should IMO corporations or unions. On the other hand as a matter of policy it's dangerous to try to put a limit on the amount of money they should obtain.

As a matter of morality churches should funnel their funds back into their mission in a financially responsible way. It would be ridiculous not to have some savings but it would also be pointless to gather money for the purpose of simply gathering money.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

I would guess that most of these don't have multi-millionaire pastors living in mansions and traveling in private jets.

The thing is the multi-millionare pastors are a very very small group that get a lot of attention.

Most pastors arn't close to anything like that. If they have close to a million dollars in networth it's in their home and personal investments for retirement.

One should be very careful around any policies ment to go after the Joel Olsteens of the world so as they don't trip over the remaining 99% of pastors who arn't known outside of their own congregation.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

Joel Osteen is one of a small percentage of clergy that's a millionaire pastor even though he does make it from his books.

Most pastors and clergy make much LESS than other heads of large organizations, even "non-profits."

Our atheist country ONLY judges Christian clergy by their worst, even though the vast majority are doing good in a culture that hates them.

Our country is functionally deist and pretty much has been since the founding.

Many of our founders were deists. Few were committed Christians.

Even now most people are functionally deists.

We're not an atheistic country. The vast majority believe in God. But we're not really a Christian country either.

 

[BrianNole777]

Our country is functionally deist and pretty much has been since the founding.

Many of our founders were deists. Few were committed Christians.

Even now most people are functionally deists.

We're not an atheistic country. The vast majority believe in God. But we're not really a Christian country either.

There is alot of overlap between people that call themselves "deists" when they're actually atheists.

Most Americans under age 60 are atheists and our culture is very hostile to Christian clergy.

IMHO.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

There is alot of overlap between people that call themselves "deists" when they're actually atheists.

Most Americans under age 60 are atheists and our culture is very hostile to Christian clergy.

IMHO.

You are looking at this like a dichotomy of either you are atheist or Christian/Muslim/Jewish/Hindu etc.

The middle position in there is deist and that's what most people functionally are.

They believe in a God who magically agrees with them on everything and agrees with most of the things they do.

Now I would be critical of deism in that philosophically most deists essentially believe in a God who is an extension of themselves. But at the same time I'm not going to claim that their belief in that God isn't real.

 

[BrianNole777]

I said my piece.

 

[jonesy5960]

It's mostly a money grab anyway. Just need to acknowledge the sham and tax them like everyone else.

 

[HawkMachine]

Why should churches be allowed to sit on huge amounts of cash

You obviously don't prepare financial statements for churches.

 

[alaskanseminole]

It's mostly a money grab anyway. Just need to acknowledge the sham and tax them like everyone else.

Tell me you don't know anything about the average church without actually tell me.

 

[HawkMachine]

If nonprofits show profit over a 5 year running average they should be taxed on the gains.

 

[LuciousBDragon]

There is alot of overlap between people that call themselves "deists" when they're actually atheists.

Most Americans under age 60 are atheists and our culture is very hostile to Christian clergy.

IMHO.

I think most Pew Research would disagree and claim America is increasingly agnostic. Majority still claim some sort of belief but are not assigning all of their beliefs to a specific religion. Atheism is still a small minority (5-15% at best). Many of those that respond atheist are probably using the terminology wrong and are agnostic.

The majority of Americans still hold on to beliefs re supreme being, higher power, mysticism, etc.

Of course I agree with you that this is a problem but I would not throw the atheist term around so loosely. Ironically, it takes a lot of faith to truly be atheist and there are not that many strong willed Americans out there to really claim atheism.

Religious Landscape Study

Explore the geographic distribution and demographics of America's major religious groups.

www.pewresearch.org

 

[hawkeyez]

No mention of the Mormons yet? They're supposedly sitting on $100+ billion in cash/investments. At a minimum, they should be paying taxes on their stock gains. IMO, small to mid-sized churches should remain tax-exempt, but the tax code should be modified for the mega churches. Whatever money they actually use for charitable causes could still be deducted though.

6 things we now know (maybe) about the LDS church’s wealth

(RNS) — A new ‘60 Minutes’ interview raised questions about the LDS church's finances, including whether its wealth now amounts to $150 billion.

religionnews.com

 

[Aardvark86]

Why should churches be allowed to sit on huge amounts of cash and be allowed tax exempt status? To further a political agenda. I have a rich catholic sister who I asked u think jesus js hanging out with u.. show me where he is frolicking with the rich on a beach somewhere

1. Well, for starters, the Constitutional reality is that in our system, religious organizations are recognized as 'different' and their tax treatment is one way that is reflected, and for good reason.
2. Setting that issue aside, in this country, we tax income, not assets. Not sure why churches should be any different than others in that respect.
3. That said, if I were writing the tax code from scratch, I'd (i) severely limit tax exempt organizations to those with charitable or religious purposes (ie, there is no reason that universities and other bullshit educational foundations should be exempt) and (ii) tighten/limit the definition of income exempt from taxation to ensure that unrelated business/commercial activities conducted by the entity are taxable.

 

[BrianNole777]

I think most Pew Research would disagree and claim America is increasingly agnostic. Majority still claim some sort of belief but are not assigning all of their beliefs to a specific religion. Atheism is still a small minority (5-15% at best). Many of those that respond atheist are probably using the terminology wrong and are agnostic.

The majority of Americans still hold on to beliefs re supreme being, higher power, mysticism, etc.

Of course I agree with you that this is a problem but I would not throw the atheist term around so loosely. Ironically, it takes a lot of faith to truly be atheist and there are not that many strong willed Americans out there to really claim atheism.

Religious Landscape Study

Explore the geographic distribution and demographics of America's major religious groups.

www.pewresearch.org

Agnosticism is basically atheism because agnostics lack belief in God.

 

[tarheelbybirth]

Our atheist country ONLY judges Christian clergy by their worst, even though the vast majority are doing good in a culture that hates them.

Horseshit.

 

[tarheelbybirth]

Why do people confuse donations with generating revenue? Some fundamental business principals are missing from OP and this thread.

The money from donations has already been taxed. Many in this thread are promoting double-taxation (just because they disagree with certain groups).

Double-taxation can have some nasty unintended consequences. Put down the emotion and think through what you’re proposing. Additionally, it is just stupid to craft policy that affects only 0.1 - 5%.

As Obi-Wan said: “These are not the droids you’re looking for.”

Maybe stop calling them "donations". I pay the guy who paints my house with already taxed dollars. He pays taxes on those dollars. It was income to me, it's income to him.

 

[LuciousBDragon]

Agnosticism is basically atheism because agnostics lack belief in God.

First off, agnostics are simply that. They neither believe or disbelieve in God. They are the ultimate fence-sitters.

I’d encourage you to take a more sympathetic look at the agnostics. These are people who deep down, are searching for God. They have the same innate sense inside of them that there indeed is something bigger. But, they get confused and distracted on their faith journey. There is a lot out there to distract and confuse people today, no? That’s part of Satan’s plan after all. I’d argue there is great hope for Americans still.

 

[LuciousBDragon]

Maybe stop calling them "donations". I pay the guy who paints my house with already taxed dollars. He pays taxes on those dollars. It was income to me, it's income to him.

You’re a hoot! Take this up with Merriam-Webster instead of HORT then asshat.

 

[DooBi]

Let me know the Republican agenda that takes care of children after they're born. The number one killer of children is a non-starter to fix for Republicans. How about mental health? Nope. Children in poverty or homeless? Nope. Funding pre-school or their public educations? Nope. Feeding them? Nope.

Basically, STFU.

You're full of shit. Iowa and Kim Reynolds has done several things to take care of people after they're born. You ignore them. You refuse to learn. That's a you problem.

 

[alaskanseminole]

 

[BrianNole777]

First off, agnostics are simply that. They neither believe or disbelieve in God. They are the ultimate fence-sitters.

I’d encourage you to take a more sympathetic look at the agnostics. These are people who deep down, are searching for God. They have the same innate sense inside of them that there indeed is something bigger. But, they get confused and distracted on their faith journey. There is a lot out there to distract and confuse people today, no? That’s part of Satan’s plan after all. I’d argue there is great hope for Americans still.

I was agnostic for maybe 8 years.

I lacked belief in God so I was basically an atheist.

 

[Bulldogs1974]

Sure. Tax them.

Planned Parenthood had $1.3 Billion in tax exempt revenue last year. Them too, right? Or is their “political agenda” ok?

what were their costs? how much free testing and stuff did they give away? I wouldn't call keeping your doors open and providing health care a political activity.

 

[Bulldogs1974]

Planned Parenthood ranks 28 of 617 in political contributions totaling $9.7 million in 2022.

Only you and those “liking” your post can pretend with a serious face that they aren’t political.

how many entities are in all 50 states?

 

[theiacowtipper]

I'm not sure how often you attend church, but what activities does a normal church partake in that you feel should be taxed? Every church I've ever belonged to only does charitable activities. I think the folks that want to tax churches have no idea what a church actually does and spends their money on.

The things that relate to the spread of religious doctrine should be taxed. Electricity for the church. Property taxes. Everything like that. Why should I subsidize someone else’s choice for a Sunday activity? The portion of their mission that has a philanthropic aspect. Food banks etc. Should be tax exempt.

 

[the24fan]

Joel Osteen is one of a small percentage of clergy that's a millionaire pastor even though he does make it from his books.

Most pastors and clergy make much LESS than other heads of large organizations, even "non-profits."

Our atheist country ONLY judges Christian clergy by their worst, even though the vast majority are doing good in a culture that hates them.

Point is they shouldn't be making ANY profit!
Did any of the apostles profit from declaring the word of God?
Didn't Jesus say "You received free, Give free"? (Matthew 10:8)
Paul said "we are not peddlers of the word of God as many men are...(2 Corinthians 2:17)
Guess those scriptures don't have any weight in many churches.

 

[the24fan]

First off, agnostics are simply that. They neither believe or disbelieve in God. They are the ultimate fence-sitters.

I’d encourage you to take a more sympathetic look at the agnostics. These are people who deep down, are searching for God. They have the same innate sense inside of them that there indeed is something bigger. But, they get confused and distracted on their faith journey. There is a lot out there to distract and confuse people today, no? That’s part of Satan’s plan after all. I’d argue there is great hope for Americans still.

Good post.
Indeed the devils tactics are to confuse and hide the truth.
Jesus made that clear in his illustration of the wheat and the weeds.
Interestingly the weed that is referred to be a bearded darnel. It closely resembles wheat when in the early stages of growth. A fitting illustration that false Christianity would appear as righteous but exposed as its fruitage was manifest

 

[Aardvark86]

I was agnostic for maybe 8 years.

I lacked belief in God so I was basically an atheist.

Brian, methinks you’re getting caught up in semantics here. Even From a catholic perspective, there is a fair distinction between being open to believing in god (the vernacular agnostic) and rejecting god (the vernacular atheist).