We also never saw a healthy Cade either.
Should Lester be held to the 25ppg standard?
- Thread starter desihawk
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This is correct. He was pretty bad, but he also was injured and operated within a broken offense.
Regarding the original question: No.
NO judgement should be passed on Lester until it becomes clear that The Capt ACTUALLY permitted him to innovate/modernize.
NO judgement should be passed on Lester until it becomes clear that The Capt ACTUALLY permitted him to innovate/modernize.
"Modern" has nothing to do with anything.
You can call it whatever year you want. But Iowa better be committed to pounding the rock.
If the program can get its offensive line and running game back to where it once was, that's all that matters
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A commitment to pounding the rock was not the problem. But the scheme to do so desperately needs to evolve, the principles that KF initially built OL play around have effectively been legislated out of the game.
Some truth to the new rules. Which is why Iowa used much more pin-and-pull scheme last season and got some mileage out of it. And "evolve" is interesting word usage because pin-and-pull is a much older scheme than the zone blocking that Iowa had traditionally used under KF.
But it's more the Jimmy's and Joe's up front than scheme that hasn't been up to par. This was due to a confluence of factors, and much that was out of KF's control.
And no, in my opinion, Iowa has not been committed enough to the run the past couple seasons
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Sometimes evolve just means not doing the same thing over and over again.
Agree to some extent that personnel has been a problem...but I have a hard time believing scheme wasn't the bigger problem. No attempts to deceive, create matchup advantages, etc., just line up and go straight at the D. Couple that with the complete inability to generate any kind of consistent threat through the air, and you ahve the circumstance ripe for the OL struggles we've seen so often the last couple of years.
This year will tell us a lot imo how much the problem was scheme vs personnel.
2023 Iowa Hawkeyes Stats | College Football at Sports-Reference.com
2023 Iowa Hawkeyes Stats
www.sports-reference.com
Iowa ran 2x as much run plays as passing plays last year.
It's the same stuff that put up 50+ points vs OSU a few years ago. The difference is the O-line hasn't been able to create a push. Football is a simple game.
If you want to talk passing game, playing a backup QB that isn't very good hurts an O-line much more than scheme.
The stuff that worked a few years ago with a good offensive line still works today with a good offensive line.
Look at losing Doyle at the same time as taking on some O-line attrition at the same time as losing developmental workouts during Covid and you start to understand. Realize that Iowa's strategy had been to recruit undersized O-lineman with good feet and develop them through a difference maker, in Doyle, and it's pretty clear. Most of these guys on the line the past couple years were never supposed to be playing
That stat is always misleading.2023 Iowa Hawkeyes Stats | College Football at Sports-Reference.com
2023 Iowa Hawkeyes Stats
Iowa ran 2x as much run plays as passing plays last year.
It includes sacks and QB scrambles. It includes run-out-the-clock series when playing with the lead in the 4th quarter. Goal line series' that are skewed to rush attempts. Reverses that have nothing to do with pounding the rock.
If you think having games with over 30 pass attempts with Deacon Hill is a commitment to the run, I don't know what to tell you.
I don't care what the numbers are. To me, they weren't committed enough to the run
agreed. at the same time over the last 3 seasons iowa won 28 games with bottom of the barrel OLs. the only other 3 year streak that beats that is 2002-04 and those teams had really good OLs. basically anytime we are outstanding at one thing, we aren't that good in another department.
No. Not making the 25 ppg (which was a publicity stunt more than anything else) was about reason #53 why BF needed to be let go.
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Agree to disagree.
Games like OSU proved themselves to be the exception to the rule in terms of production.
You make it sound like 1 game out of 90 that occurred 7 years ago vs all of the others shouldn't be held out there as an example of how effective this offense was. Are you a crazy person or something?
I used to hold on to that game as well as what the offense could still be…watched the highlights on YouTube recently; what we ran that game vs last year look like two completely different offenses.
It's mind boggling is what it is, but when it's the only talking point available to you....
Apparently they've never heard of a blind squirrel or a broken clock.
Admittedly, I hung on to it for too long; breaking point for me was the ‘22 OSU game, when BF had two weeks to prep for that game…and his first play from scrimmage was a designed roll to the short side of the field with a guy that couldn’t throw on the run.
I will be disapointed if he doesn't avg that many pts. Not a high hurdle. There are teams on the schedule they should be able to boat race that will make that an easier goal to attain like ISU(hahaha)
The OSU game was just an example.
The point was, it's the O-line that matters. Doesn't matter what the scheme is if it's a bad O-line.
You guys act like two years is the norm. Yes, the new backside cut block rule has hurt Iowa's running game. But Iowa has run a similar offense for 24 years under KF. Plenty of proof under the hood that it works.
Football has changed some at some places. But it didn't completely change overnight. Again, the same stuff that worked with a good O-line a few years ago, works with a good O-line today.
I can give 150 years of serviceable offenses with a good O-line, no matter what the scheme.
It's a simple game. How come all the experts will tell you the game is won up front, yet the fans insist on believing football is a video game? The Doc wants to talk about modern innovation. What's this an inventors convention? These coaches all know what each other is running. Get the Jimmy's and Joe's to move the damn line of scrimmage
The point was, it's the O-line that matters. Doesn't matter what the scheme is if it's a bad O-line.
You guys act like two years is the norm. Yes, the new backside cut block rule has hurt Iowa's running game. But Iowa has run a similar offense for 24 years under KF. Plenty of proof under the hood that it works.
Football has changed some at some places. But it didn't completely change overnight. Again, the same stuff that worked with a good O-line a few years ago, works with a good O-line today.
I can give 150 years of serviceable offenses with a good O-line, no matter what the scheme.
It's a simple game. How come all the experts will tell you the game is won up front, yet the fans insist on believing football is a video game? The Doc wants to talk about modern innovation. What's this an inventors convention? These coaches all know what each other is running. Get the Jimmy's and Joe's to move the damn line of scrimmage
Find me another offense that didn’t evolve noticeably over the same period of time.
Obviously we need better production from the players as well; but the last 3 years it’s become increasingly clear that we were going backwards from a schematic point. That cut block rule changed almost a decade ago - yet until last year our reliance on the stretch run as our bread and butter was unchanged; which is almost impossible to run without the cut block unless something changes.
BF was apparently unable or unwilling to do even something as simple as using basic motion/formation changes to find alternative ways to create leverage on the outside.
We’ve had, I think 2 (TWO!!!) games since the ‘22 PSU game that we surpassed 400 yards on offense. That shouldn’t be a high bar to reach consistently.
What other teams are doing is irrelevant.
I can tell you for a fact that Iowa has been using more pin-and-pull for at least 2 years. Beyond that, I don't remember for sure.
But for the majority of the ten years you referenced, Iowa had a serviceable offense. So it must not all come down to the rule change. More likely Jimmy's and Joe's, just like every scheme in every sport, at every level
I can tell you for a fact that Iowa has been using more pin-and-pull for at least 2 years. Beyond that, I don't remember for sure.
But for the majority of the ten years you referenced, Iowa had a serviceable offense. So it must not all come down to the rule change. More likely Jimmy's and Joe's, just like every scheme in every sport, at every level
Our offensive production has been on a steady decline for most of this 10 years. How much is due to a decline in personnel is not as much as the scheme has needed to evolve.
Really don’t know how you look at the last two seasons and say that wasn’t a big problem.
Get out of here with this shit,.. That 25 points per game threshold was the dumbest thing to ever come out of Iowa City...
Yes, we should expect 25 or better. This is currently a healthy more veteran team.
Hard to judge since his leg was not healthy since mid-August last year. Need the legs under you to make good throws and drop backs, etc.
So what did happen that game? I've never heard a breakdown of why the dam broke like it did. What was behind the anomaly?
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If bf had hit the 25ppg mark last year, he would be our OC today, vindicated, and possibly even celebrated. 25ppg was an objective representation of minimal (about #80 ranked offense based on the most recent season before bf's last) competency. Hitting it would've demonstrated that iowa had turned the corner from back-to-back near last place (national offense rank) finishes. Instead we hit the bottom yet again for a third consecutive season. So from my standpoint failure to hit or even approach 25ppg was absolutely the prime reason bf is no longer here.
Part of it they said afterwards - I forget who BF did the interview with; was that OSU had gotten very arrogant defensively and felt they could out-talent anyone. They noticed some tendencies during off-season prep and saw them still there during the season; stuff they did with their linebackers; and realized they could take advantage of that with Hock and Fant. And credit to BF, he couldn’t call a bad play that day, and the players just played outstanding.
But for whatever reason, it wasn’t a performance BF was capable of repeating very often, he followed that masterpiece up with that 66 yard stinker a week later at Wisconsin.
The contrast between those two games was mind boggling
Wisconsin game was the first time we really saw that when Plan A didn’t work for BF; he struggled to adjust.
Well if you're talking about the last two seasons, there's an easy answer for last season. Iowa had to bring in a backup QB in the middle of the season. It's that simple.
All the suggestions for fancy motions and formations were not applicable in that situation. What's the NFL do when a backup QB comes in? They pare everything down and try not to make big mistakes. And this is with backup QB's that are very skilled and knowledgeable. And with teammates with world class skill and coaches that are world class strategists, teachers, and play callers. With a backup QB, you make everything simpler, not more complicated. Welcome to football.
As I've said, to me, Iowa didn't pare it down enough. Throwing over 30 times with Hill just didn't make any sense. For the remainder of the season, I would have gone to three yards and a cloud of dust, period.
Add in the fact that the backup QB wasn't very good and the O-line was below average, and there you have it.
As for the previous season, the O-line was even less developed, and I think it's fair to say they were bad. Really nothing else needs to be said. It doesn't matter what the scheme is with a bad O-line.
But another factor that existed because of injury and their best receiver bailing over the summer, was Iowa playing the first few weeks of the season with next to zero at receiver.
Also compounding the offensive struggles was having an immobile QB in combination with the bad O-line.
Then I'm sure it didn't help to have nearly the entire state, at a toxic level, calling for the wrong QB to play.
A scheme either works or it doesn't. It doesn't taper off over ten years, then coincidentally stop working once the O-line isn't any good.
Just how is it that Iowa needs to "evolve"? In my opinion, immobile QB's are pretty much dinosaurs. And it would appear from the future QB's that KF has brought in that he may have made that adjustment.
Beyond that, even the most astute of fans, when it comes to X's and O's, aren't able to confidently and accurately comment on scheme without the benefit of endzone or skycam footage.
Just because a nation full of of insecure copycat coaches decided to do some stuff differently doesn't mean that the game has evolved into a better game. To me, it's devolved into a pandemic of incomplete passes, with a lack of respect for field position, lack of physicality, discipline and leveraging, optional tackling, and poor kicking games.
Thank God Iowa hasn't changed a thing on defense, that's for sure. And overall, I still find Iowa football to be a treasure in an over-changing world that includes football
That team scored less than 20 points six times that year.
That first year was at least semi-understandable tho. Lots of new parts at the skill positions, first year starter and OC. That Ohio state game provided hope things were trending in the correct direction.
You get that Iowa has made changes in its defensive schemes over the years, right?
As mentioned by another poster, Iowa only twice threw more than 30x, and I already mentioned Iowa overall ran 2x as many times as it passed, and that includes sacks.
In general I don’t disagree with most of your comments about personnel…but then you have to adjust to what your players do well; and I can’t think of a single thing done to help Deacon.
Everything changes. What worked 25 years ago isn’t going to work in the same way today. Our offensive scheme hasn’t evolved much if any over the years, even if only to incorporate rules changes.
Do you think BF should have been brought back? Why or why not?
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