So ... Feminism

[Eternal Return]

I came across one of those man-hating feminist articles and I decided to look at a few other recent feminist diatribes from pop culture from sites like "Bitch."

I don't know about you, but doesn't contemporary feminism seem a lot like sin-and-punishment Christianity? They use shame as a weapon without any irony at all. Are they dumbshits who can't see they're using the same type of structural thinking that they call "patriarchal"? It's almost as if they read "The Scarlet Letter" and thought, "It was abominable to shame Hester, sure, but I'm surprisingly attracted to the practice of shaming others who don't do things the way I like!"

More than a little ****ed up.

 

[BelemNole]

What surprises me about women is that they aren't MORE militant. Look at all the toxic shit men spew online about women. It's everywhere. It's growing. Read a bit of the XYChromosome subreddit and see that every single one of them gets DMs telling them to kill themselves or that they should be raped.
If I was a woman I'd be out there in all black wearing a beret burning shit.

 

[fivecardstud14]

The 30 Rock episode 'TGS Hates Women' touched on this.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

There are a few policy goals on both sides (for both men and women) that are involved in gender politics.

But honestly a lot of it is cultural angst and a huge part of it quite frankly is a ton of uncontrolled and quite frankly unnecessary rage.

Like if you read articles from feminists or MRA's you have to pick through with a fine tooth comb to find policy ideas to accomplish goals. In most cases probably close to 80% of it is rage at the opposite sex for some perceived slight.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

What surprises me about women is that they aren't MORE militant. Look at all the toxic shit men spew online about women. It's everywhere. It's growing. Read a bit of the XYChromosome subreddit and see that every single one of them gets DMs telling them to kill themselves or that they should be raped.
If I was a woman I'd be out there in all black wearing a beret burning shit.

The mistake is going on reddit and thinking you have a normal and stable cross section of society.

 

[BelemNole]

The mistake is going on reddit and thinking you have a normal and stable cross section of society.

Well, look at GamerGate then. The hard truth is that the internet is a cesspool of misogyny and yet you can't navigate today's world without interacting with it. Fine for men, not so great for women.

 

[Eternal Return]

There are a few policy goals on both sides (for both men and women) that are involved in gender politics.

But honestly a lot of it is cultural angst and a huge part of it quite frankly is a ton of uncontrolled and quite frankly unnecessary rage.

Like if you read articles from feminists or MRA's you have to pick through with a fine tooth comb to find policy ideas to accomplish goals. In most cases probably close to 80% of it is rage at the opposite sex for some perceived slight.

That's a great point about policy ideas. I should make this distinction clear: There is a difference between academic feminism (which is very much about legislation and policy) and pop culture feminism that gets spewed and spread on social media and shitty zines like Bitch, Ms, etc.

 

[Whiskeydeltadeltatango]

It's funny that the bathing suit generation fought to be more feminine and now they are fighting to counter act that.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

Well, look at GamerGate then. The hard truth is that the internet is a cesspool of misogyny and yet you can't navigate today's world without interacting with it. Fine for men, not so great for women.

The internet is a cesspool of hate no matter who you are. Women are not special victims of this.

Acting like we need to protect women from the internet infantilizes them.

Now sure I would love to see the internet cleaned up in that regard but it's a broad problem.

Also further. . . what in the world do you intend to do about it? Even if you assume that women are some special victims here. . . what are you going to do? Getting mad at internet assholes doesn't exactly convince them to stop being internet assholes. . . quite frankly it encourages them.

 

[Wendy79]

Well, look at GamerGate then. The hard truth is that the internet is a cesspool of misogyny and yet you can't navigate today's world without interacting with it. Fine for men, not so great for women.

Even on here and TOS. I've taken breaks from both. The low level misogyny, "jokes," tropes, and comments. Facebook friends.

"It's just a joke!" Yeah, that I've heard regularly for 30 years. It wasn't funny to begin with, but every guy who says those things think they're hilarious.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

That's a great point about policy ideas. I should make this distinction clear: There is a difference between academic feminism (which is very much about legislation and policy) and pop culture feminism that gets spewed and spread on social media and shitty zines like Bitch, Ms, etc.

I'm not sure the distinction is that easy. Even "academic feminists" will talk about things like mansplaining (which means person who happens to be male talked down to me.) or manspreading (which means person who happens to be male took up too much space in a seat for my liking.)

 

[Eternal Return]

What surprises me about women is that they aren't MORE militant. Look at all the toxic shit men spew online about women. It's everywhere. It's growing. Read a bit of the XYChromosome subreddit and see that every single one of them gets DMs telling them to kill themselves or that they should be raped.
If I was a woman I'd be out there in all black wearing a beret burning shit.

Militancy is off-putting to anyone who is not a member of the group. They're just like Southern Baptists or fundamentalist Christians and Muslims in that sense. You don't see the irony in a movement supposedly about fairness and equality that rages about patriarchal oppression while also using the tactics of patriarchal oppression to destroy perceived enemies? I wouldn't have a problem with it if they just said, "it's our turn to be the patriarchal oppressors now! We don't have a better way for all of us; we have a better way only for the women who adhere to our dogma. That's what we're about."

And I think that's all feminism is for most women: A cudgel to gain personal power. It's a damn good method because to critique feminism at all is to be guilty of misogyny ... according to feminists. Amazing that they've managed to use such hypocrisy to gain money, fame, and power. Gotta give them credit for being able to infiltrate the MSM to spread their gospel as if it's infallible.

 

[Eternal Return]

I'm not sure the distinction is that easy. Even "academic feminists" will talk about things like mansplaining (which means person who happens to be male talked down to me.) or manspreading (which means person who happens to be male took up too much space in a seat for my liking.)

Yeah, that's an unfortunate happening. Academia has been infiltrated by people who are not thinkers at all. The sinking of the humanities has hurt us all.

 

[z_ape]

What surprises me about women is that they aren't MORE militant. Look at all the toxic shit men spew online about women. It's everywhere. It's growing. Read a bit of the XYChromosome subreddit and see that every single one of them gets DMs telling them to kill themselves or that they should be raped.
If I was a woman I'd be out there in all black wearing a beret burning shit.

Lol

They're angry, anonymous, disulissioned idiots on the internet.

Kind of like bitter disillusioned women the author cites. (Granted, maybe they aren't sending angry DMs on the internet)

 

[Fluffles]

There are plenty of nut jobs that co-opt legitimate movements, like feminism, and shouldn’t be used as a referendum on said movement.

 

[thewop]

Well, look at GamerGate then. The hard truth is that the internet is a cesspool of misogyny and yet you can't navigate today's world without interacting with it. Fine for men, not so great for women.

I can definitely navigate society without subreddits or gamer gates.

Get off my lawn.

 

[Wendy79]

I'm not sure the distinction is that easy. Even "academic feminists" will talk about things like mansplaining (which means person who happens to be male talked down to me.) or manspreading (which means person who happens to be male took up too much space in a seat for my liking.)

Well...no.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

There are plenty of nut jobs that co-opt legitimate movements, like feminism, and shouldn’t be used as a referendum on said movement.

Gender politics seems to draw the most. About 80% of it is just complaining about perceived wrongs and rage at the opposite sex with no real policy solutions.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

Well...no.

Or it means they explained something to you that you already understood. (which is a way of talking down to someone)

 

[hawkbirch]

It's really hard to be all the things that other people think women should be while also ignoring all the messages they send to undermine my ability to be all of the things they think a woman should be. It's exhausting and frustrating and doesn't surprise me in the least how it can trigger "militant" responses or "diatribes" as the OP called them.
So my frustration isn't expressed in the manner that is most pleasing to you? You poor baby. How will you ever survive that trauma?

 

[FAUlty Gator]

What surprises me about women is that they aren't MORE militant. Look at all the toxic shit men spew online about women. It's everywhere. It's growing. Read a bit of the XYChromosome subreddit and see that every single one of them gets DMs telling them to kill themselves or that they should be raped.
If I was a woman I'd be out there in all black wearing a beret burning shit.

Hip hop has been given a 30 year pass on this anti-women behavior. Thousands of songs heard millions of times spewing the rhetoric. That didn’t help.

 

[Eternal Return]

Even on here and TOS. I've taken breaks from both. The low level misogyny, "jokes," tropes, and comments. Facebook friends.

"It's just a joke!" Yeah, that I've heard regularly for 30 years. It wasn't funny to begin with, but every guy who says those things think they're hilarious.

I wonder what percentage is true misogyny and how much is motivated by knowing what to say to get under another person's skin. I remember what it was like in the locker room of PE in high school. Guys would find any point of weakness of others and then use that against them to torture them for their amusement.
I
I remember a geeky goody two-shoes freshman freaking out when an older student pulled out a joint. Hilariously, he seemed to lose his ability to speak. He just pointed and blurted out, "Marijuana bad!" I about fell on the floor laughing. From that time on, people acted like they had Tourettes whenever they were around him, just tormenting him. That was who he was for the rest of the year for everyone in that class. I don't think it went well for him. He never fit in after that.

Of course, that was high school and you'd think guys would grow up, but they really don't. I've been in meetings with men in their 40s and 50s and even then you'll see piling on of guys who misspeak or do something odd. Most guys roll with it because IT IS THE CULTURE. The guys who don't roll with it are not included when important decisions are made.

You can see those same guys doing all the right things in mixed company, though. It's not culturally appropriate to do that to women, not as an adult male. But online? Those guys can let that side of their cultural identity and role come out.

I don't know if I can stress enough that it is part if American male culture to belittle others for the amusement if the group. Those who don't go along with it are Outsiders, Others; their feelings, their thoughts, their beliefs, they don't count because they aren't One Of Us.

And I see women doing the same things on social media. Labeling someone a"mansplainer" online has the same social impact as calling a skinny guy a fag on an elementary school playground. The ingroup is amused and empowered and the pariah labeled a mansplainer goes off with his tail between his legs. In other words, same tactics, different cultural group.

 

[z_ape]

It's really hard to be all the things that other people think women should be while also ignoring all the messages they send to undermine my ability to be all of the things they think a woman should be. It's exhausting and frustrating and doesn't surprise me in the least how it can trigger "militant" responses or "diatribes" as the OP called them.
So my frustration isn't expressed in the manner that is most pleasing to you? You poor baby. How will you ever survive that trauma?

Big difference between women and men is that men just don't pay as much attention to these "messages"

Be more like men

 

[Eternal Return]

It's really hard to be all the things that other people think women should be while also ignoring all the messages they send to undermine my ability to be all of the things they think a woman should be. It's exhausting and frustrating and doesn't surprise me in the least how it can trigger "militant" responses or "diatribes" as the OP called them.
So my frustration isn't expressed in the manner that is most pleasing to you? You poor baby. How will you ever survive that trauma?

It's not that. It's the idea that feminism is about fairness or equality when, as you've demonstrated, feminism is just a means of settling scores or making points in a discussion. Nothing at all about fairness or equality.

 

[gohawks50]

Well...no.

Hoosier mansplaining mansplaining.

 

[hawkbirch]

It's not that. It's the idea that feminism is about fairness or equality when, as you've demonstrated, feminism is just a means of settling scores or making points in a discussion. Nothing at all about fairness or equality.

how have I demonstrated either of those things?

 

[z_ape]

It's not that. It's the idea that feminism is about fairness or equality when, as you've demonstrated, feminism is just a means of settling scores or making points in a discussion. Nothing at all about fairness or equality.

I don't think that's what feminism is. (In fact, it's a lot of things and sort of an umbrella term... you'd be better referencing this as a variety of feminism with X problem)

 

[Wendy79]

Hoosier mansplaining mansplaining.

I'm shocked.

 

[Eternal Return]

There are plenty of nut jobs that co-opt legitimate movements, like feminism, and shouldn’t be used as a referendum on said movement.

I don't know. When a movement about institutional justice and equality is hijacked and transformed into an anger mismanagement project I think it's time to call out the movement.

 

[Wendy79]

I don't know if I can stress enough that it is part if American male culture to belittle others for the amusement if the group. Those who don't go along with it are Outsiders, Others; their feelings, their thoughts, their beliefs, they don't count because they aren't One Of Us.

Yikes.

 

[hawkbirch]

I wonder what percentage is true misogyny and how much is motivated by knowing what to say to get under another person's skin. I remember what it was like in the locker room of PE in high school. Guys would find any point of weakness of others and then use that against them to torture them for their amusement.
I
I remember a geeky goody two-shoes freshman freaking out when an older student pulled out a joint. Hilariously, he seemed to lose his ability to speak. He just pointed and blurted out, "Marijuana bad!" I about fell on the floor laughing. From that time on, people acted like they had Tourettes whenever they were around him, just tormenting him. That was who he was for the rest of the year for everyone in that class. I don't think it went well for him. He never fit in after that.

Of course, that was high school and you'd think guys would grow up, but they really don't. I've been in meetings with men in their 40s and 50s and even then you'll see piling on of guys who misspeak or do something odd. Most guys roll with it because IT IS THE CULTURE. The guys who don't roll with it are not included when important decisions are made.

You can see those same guys doing all the right things in mixed company, though. It's not culturally appropriate to do that to women, not as an adult male. But online? Those guys can let that side of their cultural identity and role come out.

I don't know if I can stress enough that it is part if American male culture to belittle others for the amusement if the group. Those who don't go along with it are Outsiders, Others; their feelings, their thoughts, their beliefs, they don't count because they aren't One Of Us.

And I see women doing the same things on social media. Labeling someone a"mansplainer" online has the same social impact as calling a skinny guy a fag on an elementary school playground. The ingroup is amused and empowered and the pariah labeled a mansplainer goes off with his tail between his legs. In other words, same tactics, different cultural group.

so your beef isn't with feminists, is it? It's with people who belittle others for their own amusement.

 

[z_ape]

Hoosier mansplaining mansplaining.

No.

 

[hawkbirch]

Yikes.

Was I supposed to be impressed and enlightened by that? WOW!

 

[Eternal Return]

I don't think that's what feminism is. (In fact, it's a lot of things and sort of an umbrella term... you'd be better referencing this as a variety of feminism with X problem)

I'm referencing the feminist articles I've been reading lately. Would it be helpful if I posted links to the specific articles? Because they are purporting that they are feminist magazines and articles.

 

[Wendy79]

so your beef isn't with feminists, is it? It's with people who belittle others for their own amusement.

And maybe people should take steps to, like, not do that. And shame people who do.

 

[hawkedoff]

The backlash is coming and will be described as men being abusive and patriarchal. It has been an effective tool after all to beat.men into submission and silence them on any topic or challenge.

Men are getting tired of it and that stuff isn't going to be able to stand forever. More and more women are also growing tired of the bullshit disguises as feminism. Most women aren't scared of men and do not hate men despite what the leaders of the current movement would like to be true

 

[hawkbirch]

I'm referencing the feminist articles I've been reading lately. Would it be helpful if I posted links to the specific articles? Because they are purporting that they are feminist magazines and articles.

personally, I think it's a subject you should avoid when given the opportunity based solely on what you've posted so far.

 

[hawkbirch]

The backlash is coming and will be described as men being abusive and patriarchal. It has been an effective tool after all to beat.men into submission and silence them on any topic or challenge.

Men are getting tired of it and that stuff isn't going to be able to stand forever. More and more women are also growing tired of the bullshit disguises as feminism. Most women aren't scared of men and do not hate men despite what the leaders of the current movement would like to be true

yikes. Is this what you really believe?

 

[hawkedoff]

personally, I think it's a subject you should avoid when given the opportunity based solely on what you've posted so far.

Yes only the high priestesses are allowed a voice

 

[Eternal Return]

how have I demonstrated either of those things?

"You poor baby. How will you survive?"

That reads like point scoring rather than an explanation or discussion.