So ... Feminism

[HawCory]

I'm not on board with this chart. Too many times I've asked a subordinate(men and women) if they needed something explained to them and been told no explanation is needed only to have them go **** something up because an explanation was, in fact, needed.

Edit to add: If I talk to you as though you are a child, it has nothing to do with your gender. It just means that you have shown me in the past that you aren't very capable.

 

[BelemNole]

Then make the damn argument if you disagree with him. That's no argument.

Look, I don't bother arguing with you clowns on issues like this because I understand that something in your upbringing was fundamentally flawed and you all are irreparably broken. More so, many of you wear it like a badge of honor.
Hoosier on the other hand is a bit of a paradox. He shows the ability to think past his narrow box on some issues but on others like this it seems his religious indoctrination wins out.
So continue to make dumb jokes and feel like you're doing something other than continuing to prove that the women are right and the rest of us will get on with raising a generation that will be better.

 

[z_ape]

Look, I don't bother arguing with you clowns on issues like this because I understand that something in your upbringing was fundamentally flawed and you all are irreparably broken. More so, many of you wear it like a badge of honor.

Oh good lord. You really believe what you just wrote?

You understand how stupid you look to everybody that actually read what I posted in this thread, right?

 

[hawkbirch]

wut

Some people posting on this particular post are not truly interested in sharing ideas and opinions in an effort to gain a better understanding of a topic by hearing different points of view and factoring them in with their own beliefs and understanding of said topic.

 

[hawkbirch]

Oh good lord. You really believe what you just wrote?

You understand how stupid you look to everybody that actually read what I posted in this thread, right?

 

[z_ape]

Then ya gotta point it out.

 

[hawkbirch]

Then ya gotta point it out.

I was referring to how you misread the thread if that's what you got from it.

 

[Eternal Return]

it was a tongue in cheek response to a tongue in cheek post.

I am happy to keep talking with you but understand that there are others who aren't able to allow that to happen.

I'm being honest when I say that I wasn't being tongue in cheek at all. I was being sincere. In fact, I've been sincere throughout, but I think I understand why you or anyone else might think otherwise. It is hard to get past the high percentage of posts that are made sarcastically and whatnot. I did write some early posts poorly with more emotionally-charged language than I was actually feeling or intending. Evidence of lazy thinking and writing. Unfortunately. So, my bad.

But, yeah, there are others ... just, yeah.

We don't need a discussion, really, but to you, Wendy, Belem, Rudolph, and others, I'll explain the underpinnings of my initial observation. I have to be vague here because I don't want to out anyone. Anyway, I have a good friend who is a professor of women's studies somewhere in the U.S. and she's the person who tends to send me links to pop culture feminist articles. I don't necessarily think they are dominant in subject or tone among the majority if the articles, they are just the ones she sends me. So I am getting a non-representative cross sample of feminist magazine articles.

Nevertheless, there are enough of them in all of the zines over the past fifteen years (that about covers the timeframe I've witnessed) that they represent a significant niche within the pop culture feminist zine-osphere. The case I gave made to my friend is that the long-term intergenerational use of that term is going to harm society because the admirable goals of feminism are going to be subverted by an us-versus-them attitudinal political posture that has nothing to do with the foundational principles of feminism.

She disagreed. And not without making great points, claims she could back through logic or real-world evidence. For example, she made the point that the underpinnings of words like mansplaining and manspreading have strong philosophical groundings. The concepts themselves are rich! The phenomenon of mansplaining exists, I have never suggested otherwise and I made the mistake of assuming everyone would understand that without me stating it clearly. Why don't you understand me without me saying what I mean?! lol

Ha, sorry, um, yeah, where was I? The point I made was that the label itself was the problem, not the concept. It's a matter of simple marketing, understanding how people emotionally process language, man woman or transgender. Damning an entire gender for the actions of some men in positions of power for condescendingly talking down to women is not a good way to sell a change in behavior. It is felt as the equivalent of a racial epithet by some. I don't know that it's really that bad now, but the longer that word remains in use the more of an n-word type of epithet becomes attached to the word "man." Knowing a bit about early childhood development, I worry that children will internalize those terms at ages in which they are unable to comprehend the complexity of the philosophical concepts involved and that prejudices and stereotypes will develop in a way that is harmful in real-world ways impacting educational opportunities, careers, and incomes, exactly the type of thing feminism has long been fighting to stop.

My friend does not see it that way. Another friend who has a degree in cultural studies agrees with me, but more friends who are feminists don't think it's a problem. And they're right if we're just comparing the potential harm the label could cause compared to the act it's symbolizing. But this isn't an either/or situation. The concept can exist and be useful with a different label, one that is not "gender-charged."

I'm genuinely flummoxed. I honestly do not understand how people familiar with feminism's hyperfocus on terminology and dissecting every word into a linguistic physics equation could be blind to how damaging slapping an entire gender onto a word representing a condescending behavior could potentially be. I can't explain it. Then again, I can't explain anti-vaxxers, either, so ...

 

[hawkbirch]

I'm being honest when I say that I wasn't being tongue in cheek at all. I was being sincere. In fact, I've been sincere throughout, but I think I understand why you or anyone else might think otherwise. It is hard to get past the high percentage of posts that are made sarcastically and whatnot. I did write some early posts poorly with more emotionally-charged language than I was actually feeling or intending. Evidence of lazy thinking and writing. Unfortunately. So, my bad.

But, yeah, there are others ... just, yeah.

We don't need a discussion, really, but to you, Wendy, Belem, Rudolph, and others, I'll explain the underpinnings of my initial observation. I have to be vague here because I don't want to out anyone. Anyway, I have a good friend who is a professor of women's studies somewhere in the U.S. and she's the person who tends to send me links to pop culture feminist articles. I don't necessarily think they are dominant in subject or tone among the majority if the articles, they are just the ones she sends me. So I am getting a non-representative cross sample of feminist magazine articles.

Nevertheless, there are enough of them in all of the zines over the past fifteen years (that about covers the timeframe I've witnessed) that they represent a significant niche within the pop culture feminist zine-osphere. The case I gave made to my friend is that the long-term intergenerational use of that term is going to harm society because the admirable goals of feminism are going to be subverted by an us-versus-them attitudinal political posture that has nothing to do with the foundational principles of feminism.

She disagreed. And not without making great points, claims she could back through logic or real-world evidence. For example, she made the point that the underpinnings of words like mansplaining and manspreading have strong philosophical groundings. The concepts themselves are rich! The phenomenon of mansplaining exists, I have never suggested otherwise and I made the mistake of assuming everyone would understand that without me stating it clearly. Why don't you understand me without me saying what I mean?! lol

Ha, sorry, um, yeah, where was I? The point I made was that the label itself was the problem, not the concept. It's a matter of simple marketing, understanding how people emotionally process language, man woman or transgender. Damning an entire gender for the actions of some men in positions of power for condescendingly talking down to women is not a good way to sell a change in behavior. It is felt as the equivalent of a racial epithet by some. I don't know that it's really that bad now, but the longer that word remains in use the more of an n-word type of epithet becomes attached to the word "man." Knowing a bit about early childhood development, I worry that children will internalize those terms at ages in which they are unable to comprehend the complexity of the philosophical concepts involved and that prejudices and stereotypes will develop in a way that is harmful in real-world ways impacting educational opportunities, careers, and incomes, exactly the type of thing feminism has long been fighting to stop.

My friend does not see it that way. Another friend who has a degree in cultural studies agrees with me, but more friends who are feminists don't think it's a problem. And they're right if we're just comparing the potential harm the label could cause compared to the act it's symbolizing. But this isn't an either/or situation. The concept can exist and be useful with a different label, one that is not "gender-charged."

I'm genuinely flummoxed. I honestly do not understand how people familiar with feminism's hyperfocus on terminology and dissecting every word into a linguistic physics equation could be blind to how damaging slapping an entire gender onto a word representing a condescending behavior could potentially be. I can't explain it. Then again, I can't explain anti-vaxxers, either, so ...

No, I meant that the particular quote of mine was a tongue in cheek response to another poster's tongue in cheek post. I recognize and appreciate your sincerity. It's clearly a topic that you've put much more thought into than I originally gave you credit for. For that, I apologize for misunderstanding your intentions. I wish I had something meaningful to add to the discussion. I think you raise good questions. Ones I'm not sure of the answers to.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

It's not silly. Doesn't it seem ****ed up to you that lots of time is spent teaching women how to not get raped? What the hell is wrong with men that women have to spend time learning how to not be victimized by them? It certainly would be nice for me and other moms if you fathers could spend as much time teaching your sons not to assault women as I will spend with my daughters teaching them how to avoid being assaulted.

Because I am guessing most people doing the assaulting either didn't listen to their parents or had bad parents in the first place.

You really think the guys who are doing this believe what they are doing is right??

Again that is like being upset because I spent time learning how to not get murdered and claiming it's because parents are not teaching their children to not murder.

Generally the good do have to learn ways to avoid being the victim of crime. That isn't to say that it's their fault when it does happen, but words don't stop some people from doing the wrong thing.

We lock our doors at night for a reason.

 

[Eternal Return]

No, I meant that the particular quote of mine was a tongue in cheek response to another poster's tongue in cheek post. I recognize and appreciate your sincerity. It's clearly a topic that you've put much more thought into than I originally gave you credit for. For that, I apologize for misunderstanding your intentions. I wish I had something meaningful to add to the discussion. I think you raise good questions. Ones I'm not sure of the answers to.

I don't think you misunderstood so much as I misworded my early posts. After re-reading them, they had too much emotional charge. I derailed my own thread before it could get started, lol. That's what I get for being lazy.

I did want to make clear that I wasn't being an ass -- at least not trying to. But I'm glad we finally got here. I think it's good enough just to raise the issue in the public consciousness. If I had started with that this might have been a great thread! Live and learn and fall on my face and learn again, 😉

 

[BelemNole]

I'm being honest when I say that I wasn't being tongue in cheek at all. I was being sincere. In fact, I've been sincere throughout, but I think I understand why you or anyone else might think otherwise. It is hard to get past the high percentage of posts that are made sarcastically and whatnot. I did write some early posts poorly with more emotionally-charged language than I was actually feeling or intending. Evidence of lazy thinking and writing. Unfortunately. So, my bad.

But, yeah, there are others ... just, yeah.

We don't need a discussion, really, but to you, Wendy, Belem, Rudolph, and others, I'll explain the underpinnings of my initial observation. I have to be vague here because I don't want to out anyone. Anyway, I have a good friend who is a professor of women's studies somewhere in the U.S. and she's the person who tends to send me links to pop culture feminist articles. I don't necessarily think they are dominant in subject or tone among the majority if the articles, they are just the ones she sends me. So I am getting a non-representative cross sample of feminist magazine articles.

Nevertheless, there are enough of them in all of the zines over the past fifteen years (that about covers the timeframe I've witnessed) that they represent a significant niche within the pop culture feminist zine-osphere. The case I gave made to my friend is that the long-term intergenerational use of that term is going to harm society because the admirable goals of feminism are going to be subverted by an us-versus-them attitudinal political posture that has nothing to do with the foundational principles of feminism.

She disagreed. And not without making great points, claims she could back through logic or real-world evidence. For example, she made the point that the underpinnings of words like mansplaining and manspreading have strong philosophical groundings. The concepts themselves are rich! The phenomenon of mansplaining exists, I have never suggested otherwise and I made the mistake of assuming everyone would understand that without me stating it clearly. Why don't you understand me without me saying what I mean?! lol

Ha, sorry, um, yeah, where was I? The point I made was that the label itself was the problem, not the concept. It's a matter of simple marketing, understanding how people emotionally process language, man woman or transgender. Damning an entire gender for the actions of some men in positions of power for condescendingly talking down to women is not a good way to sell a change in behavior. It is felt as the equivalent of a racial epithet by some. I don't know that it's really that bad now, but the longer that word remains in use the more of an n-word type of epithet becomes attached to the word "man." Knowing a bit about early childhood development, I worry that children will internalize those terms at ages in which they are unable to comprehend the complexity of the philosophical concepts involved and that prejudices and stereotypes will develop in a way that is harmful in real-world ways impacting educational opportunities, careers, and incomes, exactly the type of thing feminism has long been fighting to stop.

My friend does not see it that way. Another friend who has a degree in cultural studies agrees with me, but more friends who are feminists don't think it's a problem. And they're right if we're just comparing the potential harm the label could cause compared to the act it's symbolizing. But this isn't an either/or situation. The concept can exist and be useful with a different label, one that is not "gender-charged."

I'm genuinely flummoxed. I honestly do not understand how people familiar with feminism's hyperfocus on terminology and dissecting every word into a linguistic physics equation could be blind to how damaging slapping an entire gender onto a word representing a condescending behavior could potentially be. I can't explain it. Then again, I can't explain anti-vaxxers, either, so ...

Better post.
Two points. First, nothing changes by being unconfrontational. We see that over and over. Just look at the whole kneeling issue. No matter how they accommodated they were it was never enough to stop hurt feelings. In fact it's the very hurt feelings that brought the issue to the forefront. Second, the time for accommodating the people who are oppression you is over. Whether that is POC or women or whoever. Yeah, that will upset a lot of people who just want things to "be how they were", but those are the people who had it good under the old paradigm - so stuff their feelings on the issue.
Everyone talks about the inevitable swing back in the other direction when "people have had enough", but that's bullshit. Younger generations grow up with the new liberal social norms and aren't going to suddenly start acting like puritans.

 

[gohawks50]

I'm not on board with this chart. Too many times I've asked a subordinate(men and women) if they needed something explained to them and been told no explanation is needed only to have them go **** something up because an explanation was, in fact, needed.

Edit to add: If I talk to you as though you are a child, it has nothing to do with your gender. It just means that you have shown me in the past that you aren't very capable.

If you are in a supervisory position that's a different situation. It's your job to make sure people understand what you expect. Now as for your second paragraph, disrespect doesn't generally facilitate a motivated work force.

Edited to add:
Actually the chart explains this situation. If a person has more knowledge on a subject and they would choose to explain regardless of gender, it's not mansplaining.

 

[BelemNole]

Because I am guessing most people doing the assaulting either didn't listen to their parents or had bad parents in the first place.

You really think the guys who are doing this believe what they are doing is right??

Again that is like being upset because I spent time learning how to not get murdered and claiming it's because parents are not teaching their children to not murder.

Generally the good do have to learn ways to avoid being the victim of crime. That isn't to say that it's their fault when it does happen, but words don't stop some people from doing the wrong thing.

We lock our doors at night for a reason.

You ignored her point. Both sexes learn how to not get murdered. Only one spends a lot of time planning on not getting raped. Why is that?

 

[Eternal Return]

It's not silly. Doesn't it seem ****ed up to you that lots of time is spent teaching women how to not get raped? What the hell is wrong with men that women have to spend time learning how to not be victimized by them? It certainly would be nice for me and other moms if you fathers could spend as much time teaching your sons not to assault women as I will spend with my daughters teaching them how to avoid being assaulted.

This is one of the things I probably never would have learned without the Internet. I had no clue what's ever that this was what was on women's minds before the late 90s (my 20s). I mean to the extent you are describing it here, that learning about predation is such a huge part of parenting daughters, and that fear of sexual harassment, assault, and rape is everpresent in women's minds. Also, that it is maybe the dominant subject of conversation between women?

I get that sense, anyway. It's not an uncommon discussion between friends the last 20 years of my life, but I still get the sense that I'm not witnessing the really hairy and emotionally difficult discussions that women and girls seem to have between one another.

It's telling that the thing that women are most concerned about and talk most about is the same thing that makes men most uncomfortable to talk about. It makes sense, of course, but it is absolutely sick that so many people think we live in a good and healthy society.

There are so many other things that are also horrifying about our culture, but this is so much worse than even racism in this country that it's hard to believe anyone has ever believed that America was EVER great. You have to think genocide, racism, sexism, rape, and murder are good things to believe America was ever great.

The idea is to become great, right? How do we become great? We certainly don't look to the past, do we? I sure as hell wouldn't. I'd look at other nations and cultures who have research indicating that sexual assault is less of a problem compared to the rest of the world and study what the hell they're doing to figure out how to do that here (or whatever customized version is possible).

Its gotta be mind-boggling to be a woman and observe for your entire lifetime that even the men in your life don't think that rape is a national crisis issue. Hell, for most women, it seems, the men in your life are the most dangerous men that exist. Only as a small young child did I ever fear adult men. To fear them your entire life and have to listen to them belittle the greatest realistic threat you will face in life?

That's got to be terrifying to be aware of how little some men care that life is that brutal for women. I am surprised so many women still go along with the nuclear model of family given all of that. That may change, though.

 

[Eternal Return]

Better post.
Two points. First, nothing changes by being unconfrontational. We see that over and over. Just look at the whole kneeling issue. No matter how they accommodated they were it was never enough to stop hurt feelings. In fact it's the very hurt feelings that brought the issue to the forefront. Second, the time for accommodating the people who are oppression you is over. Whether that is POC or women or whoever. Yeah, that will upset a lot of people who just want things to "be how they were", but those are the people who had it good under the old paradigm - so stuff their feelings on the issue.
Everyone talks about the inevitable swing back in the other direction when "people have had enough", but that's bullshit. Younger generations grow up with the new liberal social norms and aren't going to suddenly start acting like puritans.

I don't think either of your points would be neutralized by using a different word for "mansplaining." It could still be an ugly word to reflect the behavior, but using a gendered term as the symbol for a behavior is not going to help those men who ARE listening.

If a change in behavior is what is desired then why insist on a blunt force impact instead of creating a good motivation for change? It's a mistake to use the same patriarchal sin-and-punishment tactics as a means to make a better society. If everyone simply becomes angry and bitter and lashes out how is that a "win"?

It should not be hard to create Guidelines for Interactions in organizations to be able to flag actual behavior that mansplaining is used to represent. But if it's happening at a party or something between people who know each other it's a personal problem rather than a national political issue that should be addressed institutionally. If it's happening on a message board or Twitter? Isn't that also just a personal problem?

The personal Twitter backlash against Kap? Big deal. The team cutting him and no other team signing him? That was collusion and Kap won a settlement against the NFL so the people who did MEANINGFUL wrong were held accountable financially through the legal system. That's how it's supposed to work and it did. Maybe the laws need to be even stronger to hold companies and institutions more accountable? That can be done through legislation and executive enforcement if the law.

That's why becoming as angry and irrationally prejudiced as the Twitter people who got upset about a black man kneeling is a bad, bad idea. Abandoning reason because the other side has as a public relations strategy based on fantasy will not work. It's just going to get people who want a better world to tune out and say "Screw it, if these are what my collaborators are like I don't want to be a part of this at all."

EDIT: It may be that Twitter and other online forums enable the "personal problems" I mentioned above. I'm not on any social media any more for that very reason.

 

[Hawki97]

I just want to add to this thread that if any lady is watching this thread and wants a kept man, I'm in. I'm a top notch cleaner, know how to do laundry, am excellent at organizing, can shop, can do all the outside stuff, and can do most home improvement projects. I suck at cooking but am willing to learn if incentivized with never having to work again. Rich ladies of HROT...drop me a PM. Thanks.

 

[hawkbirch]

This is one of the things I probably never would have learned without the Internet. I had no clue what's ever that this was what was on women's minds before the late 90s (my 20s). I mean to the extent you are describing it here, that learning about predation is such a huge part of parenting daughters, and that fear of sexual harassment, assault, and rape is everpresent in women's minds. Also, that it is maybe the dominant subject of conversation between women?

I get that sense, anyway. It's not an uncommon discussion between friends the last 20 years of my life, but I still get the sense that I'm not witnessing the really hairy and emotionally difficult discussions that women and girls seem to have between one another.

It's telling that the thing that women are most concerned about and talk most about is the same thing that makes men most uncomfortable to talk about. It makes sense, of course, but it is absolutely sick that so many people think we live in a good and healthy society.

There are so many other things that are also horrifying about our culture, but this is so much worse than even racism in this country that it's hard to believe anyone has ever believed that America was EVER great. You have to think genocide, racism, sexism, rape, and murder are good things to believe America was ever great.

The idea is to become great, right? How do we become great? We certainly don't look to the past, do we? I sure as hell wouldn't. I'd look at other nations and cultures who have research indicating that sexual assault is less of a problem compared to the rest of the world and study what the hell they're doing to figure out how to do that here (or whatever customized version is possible).

Its gotta be mind-boggling to be a woman and observe for your entire lifetime that even the men in your life don't think that rape is a national crisis issue. Hell, for most women, it seems, the men in your life are the most dangerous men that exist. Only as a small young child did I ever fear adult men. To fear them your entire life and have to listen to them belittle the greatest realistic threat you will face in life?

That's got to be terrifying to be aware of how little some men care that life is that brutal for women. I am surprised so many women still go along with the nuclear model of family given all of that. That may change, though.

It's not any different than black parents having the talk with their children. It's insane that the talk even exists. It makes me angry that black children have to learn to survive police encounters just like women learn to avoid rape. It's not the dominant topic we discuss by any stretch but my female friends would have no issue listing off things we've been taught.

Strong women scare some people on HROT so that's where I thought this post was headed. I like this conversation much better.

 

[Eternal Return]

It's not any different than black parents having the talk with their children. It's insane that

Strong women scare some people on HROT so that's where I thought this post was headed. I like this conversation much better.

It's not any different than black parents having the talk with their children. It's insane that the talk even exists. It makes me angry that black children have to learn to survive police encounters just like women learn to avoid rape. It's not the dominant topic we discuss by any stretch but my female friends would have no issue listing off things we've been taught.

Strong women scare some people on HROT so that's where I thought this post was headed. I like this conversation much better.

I've been surrounded by strong women my whole life so I'm fortunate. I learned early I better make sure I'm ready to back up any claim I make with evidence or logic because there was always an educated woman around ready to debate. It was fun, sharpened my wit, made me comfortable talking about uncomfortable subjects. Hell, it was my mom who taught me about the ERA when it was up for a vote in the 70s. That was a devastating blow for women when that got shot down.

EDIT: No sisters, though, so maybe that's why I never heard that version of "the talk."

 

[z_ape]

This is one of the things I probably never would have learned without the Internet. I had no clue what's ever that this was what was on women's minds before the late 90s (my 20s). I mean to the extent you are describing it here, that learning about predation is such a huge part of parenting daughters, and that fear of sexual harassment, assault, and rape is everpresent in women's minds. Also, that it is maybe the dominant subject of conversation between women?

I get that sense, anyway. It's not an uncommon discussion between friends the last 20 years of my life, but I still get the sense that I'm not witnessing the really hairy and emotionally difficult discussions that women and girls seem to have between one another.

It's telling that the thing that women are most concerned about and talk most about is the same thing that makes men most uncomfortable to talk about. It makes sense, of course, but it is absolutely sick that so many people think we live in a good and healthy society.

There are so many other things that are also horrifying about our culture, but this is so much worse than even racism in this country that it's hard to believe anyone has ever believed that America was EVER great. You have to think genocide, racism, sexism, rape, and murder are good things to believe America was ever great.

The idea is to become great, right? How do we become great? We certainly don't look to the past, do we? I sure as hell wouldn't. I'd look at other nations and cultures who have research indicating that sexual assault is less of a problem compared to the rest of the world and study what the hell they're doing to figure out how to do that here (or whatever customized version is possible).

Its gotta be mind-boggling to be a woman and observe for your entire lifetime that even the men in your life don't think that rape is a national crisis issue. Hell, for most women, it seems, the men in your life are the most dangerous men that exist. Only as a small young child did I ever fear adult men. To fear them your entire life and have to listen to them belittle the greatest realistic threat you will face in life?

That's got to be terrifying to be aware of how little some men care that life is that brutal for women. I am surprised so many women still go along with the nuclear model of family given all of that. That may change, though.

I really doubt they talk about sexual assault "most", nevertheless...

Of course it's sad that humanity is the way it is. That women have to worry about these things. This has always been a worry for women that men, by and large, just don't have. It's been around forever. Not only are you dealing with predatory males -- you're also smaller, weaker, and less able to defend yourself. (thanks, human evolution) Necessarily this must make for a more anxious existence.

But I also think it's a bit naive to think it's a problem that's fixed by "having the talk", that it's poor education, that it's a culture that's permissive of rape. I can't remember ever having "the talk" -- and I can't imagine ever having thought about rape or sexual assault without the attendant consideration that it's a very wrong thing to do. And you're going to find that's most men -- especially these days.

This is an ancient problem. Like murder, physical assault, robbery, kidnapping , etc. . .

And men are the chief perpetrators of all of this. They always have been regardless of culture or time. They are, in short, a more violent animal than women. Women just don't seem to possess the same capacity for violence men do. (as evidenced by all of human history)

I wouldn't be watching my back walking a "questionable" neighborhood if I knew everybody was female. Everybody feels the same way. You're always concerned about young(er) able bodied men. You know those people are the ones that are most dangerous. Again... all of humanity knows this. A "defective man" has a much higher ceiling for destructive behavior than a defective woman.

So while I'm all in favor of reaching the men that haven't somehow intellectually understood the "wrongness" of sexual assault -- by all means, lets try to reach them -- the problem cuts a lot deeper and you're naive to think simple intellectual education is the way out.

The same way you'd be naive to think simple intellectual training for murder, or robbery or assault would lead to anything near a resolution of said problems.

Instead, we're likely looking at a complex brew of human development questions that likely have a tie in to wealth, resources, household stability in childhood etc... It's tough stuff to solve. Go solve murder. Go solve robbery. Do that and you've probably also made a big dent into sexual assault.

What I bristle at is the conceptual and problem solving naiveté displayed by some feminists on this topic.

They won't like what I just wrote and that's silly. (like @BelemNole)

 

[z_ape]

Oh, and if you want to talk about cutting down sexual assault numbers... go after our culture surrounding alcohol consumption.

Alcohol-Related Sexual Assault: A Common Problem among College Students

This article summarizes research on the role of alcohol in college students’ sexual assault experiences. Sexual assault is extremely common among college students. At least half of these sexual assaults involve alcohol consumption by the perpetrator, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Men are more dangerous -- probably by... a lot -- when they drink. Granted, it's certain men. Nevertheless.... Alcohol is an inhibitor and fosters aggression concurrently. A wonderful elixir for sexual assault.

 

[z_ape]

Child predator culture? Maybe he didn't receive the proper training. To be a child-predator is to be universally hated by society. Everybody knows this. Women somehow are able to avoid being hated in this way much easier than men. Why?

Dubuque man accused of being a child predator

Police arrested 24-year-old Troy Rees at his home in Dubuque on Thursday.

www.kcrg.com

 

[Eternal Return]

I don't think either of your points would be neutralized by using a different word for "mansplaining." It could still be an ugly word to reflect the behavior, but using a gendered term as the symbol for a behavior is not going to help those men who ARE listening.

If a change in behavior is what is desired then why insist on a blunt force impact instead of creating a good motivation for change? It's a mistake to use the same patriarchal sin-and-punishment tactics as a means to make a better society

I really doubt they talk about sexual assault "most", nevertheless...

Of course it's sad that humanity is the way it is. That women have to worry about these things. This has always been a worry for women that men, by and large, just don't have. It's been around forever. Not only are you dealing with predatory males -- you're also smaller, weaker, and less able to defend yourself. (thanks, human evolution) Necessarily this must make for a more anxious existence.

But I also think it's a bit naive to think it's a problem that's fixed by "having the talk", that it's poor education, that it's a culture that's permissive of rape. I can't remember ever having "the talk" -- and I can't imagine ever having thought about rape or sexual assault without the attendant consideration that it's a very wrong thing to do. And you're going to find that's most men -- especially these days.

This is an ancient problem. Like murder, physical assault, robbery, kidnapping , etc. . .

And men are the chief perpetrators of all of this. They always have been regardless of culture or time. They are, in short, a more violent animal than women. Women just don't seem to possess the same capacity for violence men do. (as evidenced by all of human history)

I wouldn't be watching my back walking a "questionable" neighborhood if I knew everybody was female. Everybody feels the same way. You're always concerned about young(er) able bodied men. You know those people are the ones that are most dangerous. Again... all of humanity knows this. A "defective man" has a much higher ceiling for destructive behavior than a defective woman.

So while I'm all in favor of reaching the men that haven't somehow intellectually understood the "wrongness" of sexual assault -- by all means, lets try to reach them -- the problem cuts a lot deeper and you're naive to think simple intellectual education is the way out.

The same way you'd be naive to think simple intellectual training for murder, or robbery or assault would lead to anything near a resolution of said problems.

Instead, we're likely looking at a complex brew of human development questions that likely have a tie in to wealth, resources, household stability in childhood etc... It's tough stuff to solve. Go solve murder. Go solve robbery. Do that and you've probably also made a big dent into sexual assault.

What I bristle at is the conceptual and problem solving naiveté displayed by some feminists on this topic.

They won't like what I just wrote and that's silly. (like @BelemNole)

I think you might be off about how feminists here might interpret your post. All the points you laid out prove that there has never been a "great" country anywhere in the world.

But some cultures are better than others. There were some matriarchal cultures among indigenous people's throughout the world. There have also been more nomadic cultures that had more respect for the roles women played in the communities. I mean, that's anthropological reality so it's certainly possible for humans.

Most of what you wrote is evidence if what feminists have identified as patriarchal. Interestingly, the type of capitalism we practice in the U.S. puts women at greater risk for domestic sexual violence than other countries. There is no universal child care coverage, no universal health care coverage, no universal basic income, or an income below which a person can't fall. Other nations with differing capitalist structures, more mixed than in the U.S., have some combination of those four even if none have all of those things. The U.S. has none and that forces women to remain in dangerous relationships in order to provide for kids, stay on spouses health care, pay rent, etc.

Those are feminist goals. I assume they still are, but they aren't covered that much in feminist zines and if they aren't there they aren't going to penetrate the public consciousness much. The only reason they do right now is because of Trump's ****ed up response to the pandemic. Some of that stuff is in the Covid bill but the measures are temporary. It's a start and that's where the game has to be played: in DC.

 

[hawkedoff]

Perhaps as women have these talks about how to protect themselves and their daughters from rape by evil men they could perhaps try not to abuse their children. Child abuse statistics are fairly clear that women are responsible for about 70 percent of child abuse and that abuse results in almost twice the rate of fatalities for children. I'm guessing most of you didn't know that because women are such natural caregivers and men can't be trusted with their children with all the rape and abuse and not caregiving.

So hey maybe clean up your act a bit women and stop killing kids. At the very least stop abusing them.

Mothers are more likely to abuse children than fathers. Fact? | Child Protection Resource

childprotectionresource.online

 

[z_ape]

Child predator culture? Maybe he didn't receive the proper training. To be a child-predator is to be universally hated by society. Everybody knows this. Women somehow are able to avoid being hated in this way much easier than men.

Dubuque man accused of being a child predator

Police arrested 24-year-old Troy Rees at his home in Dubuque on Thursday.

www.kcrg.com

I don't understand what the intellectual intervention into this man's early life would've looked like.

 

[Eternal Return]

Oh, and if you want to talk about cutting down sexual assault numbers... go after our culture surrounding alcohol consumption.

Alcohol-Related Sexual Assault: A Common Problem among College Students

This article summarizes research on the role of alcohol in college students’ sexual assault experiences. Sexual assault is extremely common among college students. At least half of these sexual assaults involve alcohol consumption by the perpetrator, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Men are more dangerous -- probably by... a lot -- when they drink. Granted, it's certain men. Nevertheless.... Alcohol is an inhibitor and fosters aggression concurrently. A wonderful elixir for sexual assault.

It's not drinking itself, it's the culture around drinking in a lot of America that is a problem. It's a problem in other countries, too, but not everyone drinking in America or around the world is violent sexually when they drink. Or violent in any way, for that matter. Not every man is so ****ed up that his inhibitions are the only thing keeping him from forcing himself on a woman who doesn't want that.

The men who have that problem, yeah, they are ****ed up and a lot of that has to do with their familial culture and community drinking culture. It means those men never developed an adult-level ability to see women as fellow human beings who get to make their own choices about their bodies sexually no matter what a man wants from her. Unless a person is still a toddler emotionally they should be able to control themselves even through the height of puberty and adolescence.

It seems like you're veering away from your earlier posts. I don't think there's evidence men are inherently violent even if drinking. But anyone with an alcohol problem probably won't be able to refrain from drinking when angry and so I get why that happens, but developing that level of a problem isn't a given for any man. It's certainly more likely to develop in a drinking family and those families tend to sweep things under the rug until they explode. But that is cultural yet again.

 

[Eternal Return]

Perhaps as women have these talks about how to protect themselves and their daughters from rape by evil men they could perhaps try not to abuse their children. Child abuse statistics are fairly clear that women are responsible for about 70 percent of child abuse and that abuse results in almost twice the rate of fatalities for children. I'm guessing most of you didn't know that because women are such natural caregivers and men can't be trusted with their children with all the rape and abuse and not caregiving.

So hey maybe clean up your act a bit women and stop killing kids. At the very least stop abusing them.

Mothers are more likely to abuse children than fathers. Fact? | Child Protection Resource

childprotectionresource.online

lol. Okay, I get ya, but the idea isn't for men to shame women and women to shame men. That's not the answer to the problem, lol.

But it is a real problem. There are also women who are nurses and nursing home caregivers who are abusive and cruel as well. I'm absolutely positive that all feminist philosophy condemns those acts just as much as you do. The good news is there are at least institutional regulations to police nurses and caregivers (though the regards need much.more personnel and regulatory involvement).

Domestic abuse and violence, whether emotional or physical or sexual, is probably the most serious pervasive problem in the country that has never been addressed adequately. The commonality here is the nuclear family and models approximating it (single-parent families in particular). The domicile is the one place that isn't regulated by the government (practically) so it's not surprising it's the most violent place in America. It's the one place people can repeatedly get away with it. It's nothing to celebrate.

 

[z_ape]

It's not drinking itself, it's the culture around drinking in a lot of America that is a problem. It's a problem in other countries, too, but not everyone drinking in America or around the world is violent sexually when they drink. Or violent in any way, for that matter. Not every man is so ****ed up that his inhibitions are the only thing keeping him from forcing himself on a woman who doesn't want that.

The men who have that problem, yeah, they are ****ed up and a lot of that has to do with their familial culture and community drinking culture. It means those men never developed an adult-level ability to see women as fellow human beings who get to make their own choices about their bodies sexually no matter what a man wants from her. Unless a person is still a toddler emotionally they should be able to control themselves even through the height of puberty and adolescence.

It seems like you're veering away from your earlier posts. I don't think there's evidence men are inherently violent even if drinking. But anyone with an alcohol problem probably won't be able to refrain from drinking when angry and so I get why that happens, but developing that level of a problem isn't a given for any man. It's certainly more likely to develop in a drinking family and those families tend to sweep things under the rug until they explode. But that is cultural yet again.

Of course it's not all men. I said as much. I can say something is more a male a problem with saying all males suffer from said problem.

My reasoning was simple enough: alcohol can act as a powerful inhibitor of impulse. In a sexually charged atmosphere, as, say, a bar is, you're going to risk creating more horny, drunk men with lowered inhibitions. While they might be perfectly respectful non drunk, they aren't in their 'right mind' and are more likely to act sexually aggressive.

Same reason a drunk driver might run from the cops, a drunk guy might start randomly picking fights. It's inhibition + certain individual psychology + immediate context. (or some complex interaction thereabout)

And of course a man ought to be able to control himself. I mean we've established that pretty well in conversation here, and at a societal level in general. We're talking about why it is, exactly, they don't. All i've done is to put forth the argument that some of this dysfunction is due to the nature of being male. That they are, as an animal, more prone to certain negative behaviors.

 

[tarheelbybirth]

LOL at this thread going 4 pages in less than 24 hours. Men telling women how they should behave.

 

[Hawki97]

LOL at this thread going 4 pages in less than 24 hours. Men telling women how they should behave.

No PMs from a sugar momma to me yet either. Sad face emoji

 

[Rudolph]

*sigh* Have you read any if my other posts in this thread? Specifically starting with the response to Hawkbirch about having a discussion and then starting the discussion? I've moved on from the original post which I admitted in another post that I started the thread poorly. I'm more interested in moving the discussion forward than in litigating my original post.

I have now. My post stands re: media, including publications. Got you riled up, right?

 

[hawkedoff]

lol. Okay, I get ya, but the idea isn't for men to shame women and women to shame men. That's not the answer to the problem, lol.

But it is a real problem. There are also women who are nurses and nursing home caregivers who are abusive and cruel as well. I'm absolutely positive that all feminist philosophy condemns those acts just as much as you do. The good news is there are at least institutional regulations to police nurses and caregivers (though the regards need much.more personnel and regulatory involvement).

Domestic abuse and violence, whether emotional or physical or sexual, is probably the most serious pervasive problem in the country that has never been addressed adequately. The commonality here is the nuclear family and models approximating it (single-parent families in particular). The domicile is the one place that isn't regulated by the government (practically) so it's not surprising it's the most violent place in America. It's the one place people can repeatedly get away with it. It's nothing to celebrate.

Yeah except the shaming of men has been going on for a very very long time now.

Let me ask you....can you name a positive role model for boys that is the main character in any disney movie in the last ten years? Literally very movie they put out now is girl power.

It has become so pervasive that even in this thread a woman talks about needing to train men not to rape and men simply nod along too scared to say what bullshit. No she doesn't. The rape narrative pushed by feminism is a lie. Yes it happens but the statistics and the definitions surrounding rape have been distorted and deliberately twisted for power by feminism.

Domestic violence is cast as female victim and male perpetrator to the point that no one even asks about female violence towards men and children. Men nod they heads along when women are awarded custody at ridiculous disparate rates over this false narrative that they are better caregivers and men are either humbling idiots or abusive monsters. Truth is the monsters in abusing and killing children is women. You didn't know that. It isnt pushed into the world at all and yet it is true. Women still manage to take those facts that they abuse and kill children at much higher rates than men and spin it to make men's fault

 

[FAUlty Gator]

I'm not on board with this chart. Too many times I've asked a subordinate(men and women) if they needed something explained to them and been told no explanation is needed only to have them go **** something up because an explanation was, in fact, needed.

Edit to add: If I talk to you as though you are a child, it has nothing to do with your gender. It just means that you have shown me in the past that you aren't very capable.

I had a female colleague once tell me that I mansplained something to her a while back. I told her I didn't know what that was, so she told me. Then I accused her of womensplaining it to me and said I was going to HR. Now she just stays the fvck away from me. Problem solved.

 

[Rudolph]

Yeah except the shaming of men has been going on for a very very long time now.

Let me ask you....can you name a positive role model for boys that is the main character in any disney movie in the last ten years? Literally very movie they put out now is girl power.

It has become so pervasive that even in this thread a woman talks about needing to train men not to rape and men simply nod along too scared to say what bullshit. No she doesn't. The rape narrative pushed by feminism is a lie. Yes it happens but the statistics and the definitions surrounding rape have been distorted and deliberately twisted for power by feminism.

Domestic violence is cast as female victim and male perpetrator to the point that no one even asks about female violence towards men and children. Men nod they heads along when women are awarded custody at ridiculous disparate rates over this false narrative that they are better caregivers and men are either humbling idiots or abusive monsters. Truth is the monsters in abusing and killing children is women. You didn't know that. It isnt pushed into the world at all and yet it is true. Women still manage to take those facts that they abuse and kill children at much higher rates than men and spin it to make men's fault

Look at you, telling your truth. You, sir, are a complete ƒuçking doofus.

 

[z_ape]

LOL at this thread going 4 pages in less than 24 hours. Men telling women how they should behave.

What a tired observation. That's not what this thread has been about.

 

[tarheelbybirth]

What a tired observation. That's not what this thread has been about.

More lol...you might want to read the thread.

 

[tarheelbybirth]

I had a female colleague once tell me that I mansplained something to her a while back. I told her I didn't know what that was, so she told me. Then I accused her of womensplaining it to me and said I was going to HR. Now she just stays the fvck away from me. Problem solved.

Did you feel the need to explain something to someone based on the assumption that she couldn't comprehend it? Did she ask for an explanation? Did she indicate that she didn't understand what was being discussed?

See...you did exactly that so you might want to rethink this post. It doesn't make you look good.

 

[FAUlty Gator]

Did you feel the need to explain something to someone based on the assumption that she couldn't comprehend it? Did she ask for an explanation? Did she indicate that she didn't understand what was being discussed?

See...you did exactly that so you might want to rethink this post. It doesn't make you look good.

Well...considering it was a joke and completely made up and went flying over your head,,,I'd say it doesn't make you look good.

 

[tarheelbybirth]

Well...considering it was a joke...

And that's why people don't find you funny.

 

[Eternal Return]

Yeah except the shaming of men has been going on for a very very long time now.

Let me ask you....can you name a positive role model for boys that is the main character in any disney movie in the last ten years? Literally very movie they put out now is girl power.

It has become so pervasive that even in this thread a woman talks about needing to train men not to rape and men simply nod along too scared to say what bullshit. No she doesn't. The rape narrative pushed by feminism is a lie. Yes it happens but the statistics and the definitions surrounding rape have been distorted and deliberately twisted for power by feminism.

Domestic violence is cast as female victim and male perpetrator to the point that no one even asks about female violence towards men and children. Men nod they heads along when women are awarded custody at ridiculous disparate rates over this false narrative that they are better caregivers and men are either humbling idiots or abusive monsters. Truth is the monsters in abusing and killing children is women. You didn't know that. It isnt pushed into the world at all and yet it is true. Women still manage to take those facts that they abuse and kill children at much higher rates than men and spin it to make men's fault

You're taking this personally and you've lost your rationality. Both men and women abuse children. Both men and women commit domestic violence. It's not a competition. We don't argue women are better than men or that men are better than women.

What we do is create institutional changes to address these problems. You don't move the needle this way. I don't know what your personal experiences are with abuse, but I would not be surprised at all if you were abused by women and if you were that's awful and those women should be held accountable. But dismissing women's experiences of abuse and violence is not the way to get more attention for the plights of children abused by women.

Take a break from this thread. I'm going to, too. Good luck to you.