Super 32
- Thread starter Jaybird319
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Relax Dice...I haven't had the chance to see the match but most kids are stallers against a Thomsen like wrestler. It's something he is going to have to address...guys working the edge, good defense, scramblers... strategic wrestling.
As for the arguments against choosing down...he should be choosing down against pretty much everybody unless Rutherford has a little brother or a kid personally owns him on top. Marinelli chose neutral the other night as well which was a bummer.
In high school UTB when the objective is to ride and not turn on top it is usually best to choose top because of the rules (expecially in high level matchups). Its only 30 seconds, the 1st stall is called a stalemate and the next is a stall warning (provided no previous stall calls in the match). I don't remember ever seeing a ref call 3 stalemate/stalls within those 30 seconds.
I have seen many high school kids lose in UTB because they and/or their coaches are programmed to choose down no matter the situation. Biggest instance that sticks out to me made NU's Bryce Brill a 3x SC instead of 4x SC in Illinois. In the championship match, after both kids rode each other out in the 30 second rideouts, Brill had choice in UTB and inexplicably chose bottom... first words out of my mouth "WTF are they thinking?!"
Someone close to the situation said afterwards something along the lines of "if you wanna be the champ you have to be able to escape from bottom." Of course the appropriate retort was "No you don't because the champ didn't"
I have seen many high school kids lose in UTB because they and/or their coaches are programmed to choose down no matter the situation. Biggest instance that sticks out to me made NU's Bryce Brill a 3x SC instead of 4x SC in Illinois. In the championship match, after both kids rode each other out in the 30 second rideouts, Brill had choice in UTB and inexplicably chose bottom... first words out of my mouth "WTF are they thinking?!"
Someone close to the situation said afterwards something along the lines of "if you wanna be the champ you have to be able to escape from bottom." Of course the appropriate retort was "No you don't because the champ didn't"
So let's talk about Young. Where does he fit in the lineup? Can he be a 174-pounder?
'17-18:
125-133: Wagner (RSF)/Rathbun (RSF)/Mejia (TF)/Renteria (TF)
141: Turk (So)/Happel (RSF)/Ryan (Jr)
149: Sorensen (Sr)
157: Kemerer (So)
165: Marinelli (RSF)
174: Paddock (Jr)/Young (RSF)
184: Wilcke (So)
197: Holloway (So)
285: Stoll (Jr)
'17-18:
125-133: Wagner (RSF)/Rathbun (RSF)/Mejia (TF)/Renteria (TF)
141: Turk (So)/Happel (RSF)/Ryan (Jr)
149: Sorensen (Sr)
157: Kemerer (So)
165: Marinelli (RSF)
174: Paddock (Jr)/Young (RSF)
184: Wilcke (So)
197: Holloway (So)
285: Stoll (Jr)
I'm always relaxed with you, AZ, maybe not so much with some other posters. Should have put the wink in on my post, just thought you were jabbing me (friendly) about my PA bias.
Dice... Hate to break it to you, but wrong on both accounts. Fix and Karam are both very big for the weight. I could tell you their walk-around round on Sunday. Fix is just a short dude. But his butt and thighs are significantly larger than anyone at that weight. I think he was cutting too MUCH weight. He wasn't the same explosive guy we've seen in the past. It's clear that the plus-5 he got at Who's No. 1 really helped.
Karam is just a match-up nightmare, and he's in a REALLY good program and has access to Lehigh's RTC, which is literally in his backyard.
I think Young going 74 will happen. I would expect him to wrestle 65 for his redshirt year and the following year moving up with a solid workout program from Rutt. I love our middle weight situation. What I'm real interested in seeing is if BS stays at 149 next year or moves to 157, but that's a conversation for another day.
Can't help myself. We better next year
49 MK
57 BS or
49 BS
57 MK?
Watch Flo's interview with Fix at weigh-ins. I wanted to hand the kid a cheesesteak.
Will have to disagree with you on Karam, but I guess that depends on what your expectation of what a big 126lber is. I've got a kid I consider part of my family who has wrestled him in a state title match who I don't consider smaller than Karam and he walks around at 130 to 135. Walking around weight varies a lot from kid to kid.
I'm talking frame here. For example, we have a kid who was nationally ranked last year at 106/113 on our HS team. He walked around at 140 plus this summer - 10 pounds over the kid I just mentioned. I consider him to be smaller and a weight class less than the kid I mentioned. So does most everyone else.
I'm not privy to Fix' walking around weight, but don't dispute that it is a lot. His frame is different from the kids I mentioned. I would be very surprised if Fix projected at a higher weight in college than those kids or even the same weight early on. Again, JMO that his frame looks a weight class below AND he has been competing against guys like Spencer and such, who definitely are smaller at this time.
Would not disagree one bit about Karam's program, access to Lehigh and being a matchup nightmare - I know this well. I've always had the utmost respect for him and have known he belonged in the elite category for a bit now. I definitely don't consider him a large 126lb, but I guess you could say that comparing him to just your run of the mill HS kid. But not compared to most of the kids that he's wrestling in the last few matches when he's going for a state title.
Fix' frame reminds me of a kid like Wade Cummings, or maybe Pletcher would be a more well known kid. And these kids are kids that project at 125 and 133 in college and are bigger than Fix right now no matter what he walks around at.
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Dice - I am going to guess the ones being critical on your assessment of DeSanto was due to the fact you called them out a little bit and asked if they watched any wrestling outside of Iowa. Maybe this kid is not a stalling machine as you say, they were just basing it off of the one match they seen against Thompsen and maybe a couple more after that. I have never seen the kid wrestle myself so I can't say one way or another. If you look at what you are arguing about I think that is the reason why, just my two cents as I don't have a dog in the fight.
Now on to more pressing matters......I apologized a while back to Souci for name calling but here we go again with "my kid" "don't go under my kid"!!!! Get lost with this my kid BS and go somewhere else. I am all for a parent pulling for their kid but you are over the top.
Now on to more pressing matters......I apologized a while back to Souci for name calling but here we go again with "my kid" "don't go under my kid"!!!! Get lost with this my kid BS and go somewhere else. I am all for a parent pulling for their kid but you are over the top.
That is the single most self-confusing and anatomically asinine comment on the planet. Whether you are talking about frame or what you consider "bigger" is not in question. What you're saying is patently absurd. Remember the specific discussion is Fix being "too small" for the weight. He's not. Weight equals POUNDS. Having a discussion about your 106 and some other kid lends nothing to the conversation, other than confirmation that you have no idea what "being big" for the weight means.
We're talking in simple pounds. Saying Fix is too small was an error. And you can't admit it, so you make up some convoluted theory on "Big/Weight." Wrestling has WEIGHT classes. So you when you say someone is big for the weight class, or not big enough, we're talking about pounds. There is some discrepancy if we're talking about body fat, but that's not the discussion.
Well, if your point is that "pounds equals pounds" in terms of this discussion than we will agree to disagree. Frame absolutely comes into the equation and not all wrestlers frames are equal. You can consider that asinine - I've been around a lot of discussions regarding weight and wrestling and seen opinions from all sides of it.
I still am of the opinion that Fix was up a weight competing at S32 whether they weighed in the same or not. He could be cutting a ton from his walking weight and I'd still be of the same opinion. The point remains that he's been wrestling kids like Spencer this summer, Rudy Yates at WNO, etc. and now he's dealing with kids like Arujua. If your going to tell me they are the same size because they are all competing at the same weight class at S32, well, that's a pretty simplistic view of it.
I specifically brought Karam up as an example BECAUSE I am very familiar with him as I pointed out above. I'm only going by video with Fix-Karam because I don't see Fix wrestling live much (once), but from the video, in my eyes, Fix certainly isn't bigger than him and is having trouble dealing with his length. Again, know Karam up and down and his frame is on the lankier side, but he's certainly not the tallest 26 around. When you say Karam is a big 126, again, that is I guess where we part ways here. Maybe in the landscape of the 26lb kids that you see during the regular season on a week to week basis, and who knows maybe he goes 132 at times during the season, but at the end of the season I would be guessing he will be 128 and he certainly won't be a large 128 when he's wrestling for the state title in Hershey.
Yes, I would bet that Fix is 126 all season and does great and wins his state title. It's probably a great weight for him. It's just my opinion that in the national landscape - which is where he resides and where we are discussing his ranking - he's definitely moving up a weight class and is going to need to transition to it. He's a weight class short of where the guys he was up against at the end of the S32 have been for a while.
Yes, I would agree that my original comment - I think it was in reference to JackHawk - was calling him out a bit with the comment about watching wrestling outside of Iowa. A little over the top, just a reaction to someone calling someone a staller based on the match against Thomsen. Again, probably because I've seen the kid so much and generally he's a point scoring machine with a nice gas tank. Actually, brings me back to the time when many on here nicknamed Nico Megastall or whatever it was after freshman year. Another kid who is anything but a staller, a constant goer, but McDonough had the ability to control the mat on him. It certainly wasn't because that was Megaludis' style.
Sorry, JackHawk. But DeSanto's not a staller. All good.
By the way, SanSouci's kid just committed to the Nittany Lions. Cael got in early and continued his amazing recruiting run.
I always assumed Souci was being facetious with these posts, making fun of crazy wrestling dads.
I would have assumed the same thing, but I remember the first couple of posts he made - I think it was in an argument about wrestling according the rules set for, maybe with TarpHawk - and if that's the case, the guy is an absolute genius in the set up and the troll.
He wasn't the same explosive athlete that we saw at WNO. I believe that was because he made 131 there and not 126. He's not a 125 in college, even at Okie St. That's because he was sucked the hell out. He's getting bigger and I see him going 132 on the year.
Sunday at Super 32 is about 40 hours after weigh ins. Finals almost 48 hours. If he wasn't explosive because of that 5lbs he may be the slowest recovering elite athlete on record.
BTW, I figured I'd go back and watch the video (DeSanto-Schnupp) since I made such an ass of myself by just posting it by Vinny Barber's caption and not watching it.
If you guys think you are watching stalling by DeSanto in that match, we are never going to agree. I figure maybe you guys don't like the way he gives up ground in neutral, but that isn't stalling any more than pushing your guy to the edge is offense (woops, maybe the wrong place to post that
, jk). Set up on his attacks, more attacks, attacks throughout (until the last minute when protecting a 6-1 lead).
Kid he was facing is no chump - Devin Schnupp from Warwick (FLO mispelled his name). Schnupp is no offensive whirlwind, but I've seen him beat Brandon Paetzell (excellent HS lightweight from NJ - much better than the kid Thomsen beat at S32) in person wrestling that way and stealing it at the end.
I get that this is not as entertaining as your local JH match filled with cowcatchers (we call them mixers) and headlocks, but for two really good wrestlers going at it with one of them a bit defensive in nature - it's certainly not an example of stalling by DeSanto.
I probably could have posted a better example for DeSanto though. Maybe if Willie is lurking he can dig up a video of DeSanto-KJ Fenstermacher from last year and post it here for an entertaining bout.
If you guys think you are watching stalling by DeSanto in that match, we are never going to agree. I figure maybe you guys don't like the way he gives up ground in neutral, but that isn't stalling any more than pushing your guy to the edge is offense (woops, maybe the wrong place to post that
, jk). Set up on his attacks, more attacks, attacks throughout (until the last minute when protecting a 6-1 lead).Kid he was facing is no chump - Devin Schnupp from Warwick (FLO mispelled his name). Schnupp is no offensive whirlwind, but I've seen him beat Brandon Paetzell (excellent HS lightweight from NJ - much better than the kid Thomsen beat at S32) in person wrestling that way and stealing it at the end.
I get that this is not as entertaining as your local JH match filled with cowcatchers (we call them mixers) and headlocks, but for two really good wrestlers going at it with one of them a bit defensive in nature - it's certainly not an example of stalling by DeSanto.
I probably could have posted a better example for DeSanto though. Maybe if Willie is lurking he can dig up a video of DeSanto-KJ Fenstermacher from last year and post it here for an entertaining bout.
BTW, Schnupp is committed to PSU. Probably not getting much more than books (who knows) and probably a "room guy" as you guys like to call them. In the unlikely event that Schnupp wrestles for PSU against Iowa one year and you guys call him a "staller," I promise I won't come on here to refute it (fingers crossed behind my back).
as you guys like to call them. In the unlikely event that Schnupp wrestles for PSU against Iowa one year and you guys call him a "staller," I promise I won't come on here to refute it (fingers crossed behind my back).
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Im not educated enough to figure out if this is stalling or wrestling defensively to your opponents strength. Granted this is only PIAA quarterfinals match
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Definitely stalling. Lured Brown to sleep a couple times and then attacked but other than that he stalled in that match.
Im not educated enough to figure out if this is stalling or wrestling defensively to your opponents strength. Granted this is only PIAA quarterfinals match
Agreed. Continuously left the center circle and refused to go back -- forced Brown to come after him. Repeatedly left the mat voluntarily. And, personally, I HATE the stance on one knee. There is no offense from that position other than countering.
Im not educated enough to figure out if this is stalling or wrestling defensively to your opponents strength. Granted this is only PIAA quarterfinals match
Unfortunately, this is what folkstyle has become. Most of the time, the stalling isn't called and frequently the staller wins. Folkstyle needs a boost as it has become quite boring for the most part. I know they are trying to change, but the refs (for the most part) are having none of it.
Freestyle has successfully made changes to make the style much more enjoyable. Hopefully folk can do the same.
This may not be the best example to make the case against stalling not being called. Ref called it with 3 seconds to go to send it to overtime, where the more aggressive wrestler won. I thought it was a pretty good match, btw: both guys were very talented, both active, but I agree that DeSanto was backing up, particularly in the third period. And I agree that I doubt many collegiate refs would've called the first stall warning, much less the point with 3 second left, much less at NCAAs.
That is true; I think the ref called stalling pretty appropriately. I'd say he was a little slow calling it at neutral, and a little fast calling it when the kid was on bottom. I'm pretty damn slow to call stalling on the bottom man when the top man has a leg in. And that was actually a pretty good match; I just felt Desantos was deliberately "baiting" the other kid to come to him. Brown seemed to be deliberately staying in the middle as if to show the ref, "Hey, I'm in the middle, and he won't come join me. Ding him!"
Stall call on bottom appropriate when kid keeps his face in the mat. Head up = looking for escape. Head down = hanging out. When Desanto looked up he stood up (twice).
My only disagreement, Tarp, is that the stalling call with time running out does get called by collegiate refs -- but often when it's only the 1st call, which has no real consequences when called so late in the match. One of the things about folkstyle that irritates me the most is when the ref gives the 1st stalling warning to a guy who's been stalling for 2 periods. . . but is careful to call it with about 10-20 seconds left, so the ref can say he made the call without having to make a call that would markedly affect the outcome. At Nationals, it happens all. . . the. . . time.
We've all said it a millions times, but a double stall call at the end of any 0-0 period would solve a lot of problems.
Definitely stalling. He continually backed up and left the mat on multiple occasions. And I agree that the dropping to one knee is stupid, it is called neutral not hands and knees position. Let me put it this way, if Brown stays in the middle and does not go to DeSanto what does the ref do? I would not have moved an inch from the middle and made them make a decision. After they do if DeSanto backed up off the whistle I would stay again, if they want to hit both of us so be it but I'm not chasing his ass backing up the entire match.
I would LOVE to see this scenario play out, time and again, just to see what happens. If you have enough people do it, with conviction, it would absolutely have an impact, IMO.
Jordan Oliver's first year, you couldn't touch that kid with a ten foot pole. It was unbelievable the shit he got away with without being called for stalling. To his credit, he shored that up in his later years, and oddly enough had better results as well.
